Clone Wars Why did all of the more powerful national entities seem to side with the CIS?

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV' started by Darth Valkyrus, Jun 4, 2013.

  1. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Sure it is. It means that treating TCW as if it were even remotely in the same league as some semi-obscure novels that George never saw, read, or probably even knew about is silly. Sorry, TCW was a Lucas-produced TV series that George was deeply personally involved with. It is, as Sam Jackson once said, not even the same sport, and I just don't buy any pretense that the two are equivalent.
    cwustudent likes this.
  2. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    Because they were to stupid to realize that Stalin was FAR more dangerous. (Hitler was very surprised that the USA didn't help him fight the USSR) And they paid for that decision with 30 years of war & worrying that the entire planet was going to be wiped out in a single day.
  3. Jarren_Lee-Saber Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2008
    star 4
    But that's the same thing as lumping all the novels into one - when you've got some like the New Jedi Order series that had heavy involvement from GL, and others like The Courtship of Princess Leia that he had nada to do with.

    Its all EU. And its all canon until proven otherwise. (case in point, my favorite books - Republic Commando series - are rendered non-canon because of TCW)

    There are certainly levels of EU canon, and TCW is at the top of the list.
    Last edited by Jarren_Lee-Saber, Jun 10, 2013
  4. Mia Mesharad Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    Stepping back into this just for a moment for the sake of a friendly clarification:
    Don't worry, the Republic Commando novels are absolutely still canon. They're a favorite of mine, as well, and due to the cumulative efforts of a number of excellent authors―Jason Fry chief among them―the events of TCW and those from Republic Commando have been successfully integrated, each preserved cooperatively.

    For a general idea of how this has worked out, feel free to take a look at Wookieepedia's article on Mandalore, which shows rather succinctly how well both series can coexist side by side with really the slightest bit of effort.
  5. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Sorry, if George personally approves of everything that goes into it - and we know he does, because we've heard of him rejecting ideas for it, then it isn't really "EU".

    I don't necessarily disagree with you there. Both of them were awful, but Stalin was the worse and more dangerous one. But the point still stands - sometimes you make alliances with people you don't like because you have to ally against someone who's even worse. That's the way the real world works.
  6. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The Star Wars Universe: Everything in the movies
    The Star Wars Expanded Universe: Everything not in the movies - which expands the Universe of the movies.

    Lucas has examined (and rejected ideas for) the books and comics- as well as TCW. Heir to the Empire. Dark Empire. New Jedi Order.

    And aside from anything else, Wild Space is a TCW tie-in novel. It has Ahsoka.

    If you're going to criticise the Rebels based on a statement in The Essential Guide to Warfare- which is not TCW- why reject a statement from TCW-tie-in material?
    Contessa and Mia Mesharad like this.
  7. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Human history has shown us that the acquiring of power is followed by the lust for more power. Thus it follows that some (or most, as you say) of the already powerful entities joined the CIS so that they could gain more power. It is also worthy to point out that the leader (or at least the person everyone thought to be the leader) of the CIS, Dooku, was a count and raised in a rich hereditary family, and after resigning as a Jedi, he returned to his estate and his wealth and this would have attracted many galactic leaders involved in trade and commerce, for example the Intergalactic Banking Clan.
    Last edited by Michael McKean, Jun 10, 2013
  8. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Sort of like 'Your Enemy's Enemy Is Your Friend.'
  9. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    star 1
    Treachery, though, is the way of the Sith.
  10. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    If we're not going to acknowledge any difference between genuine Lucasfilm-made productions and "tie-in material", why draw any distinction between Star Wars stories at all? Why not put the Holiday Special on the same level as A New Hope - after all, the Holiday Special is "tie-in material". In fact, if anything, the Holiday Special has more of a claim on being "real" Star Wars than your book does.

    Anyhow, dismissing TCW as merely being "EU" is something I find is done by people who really, deep down, do understand the difference - they just don't like TCW as much as they like the novels, comics, and games that it contradicted, and so they like to pretend that it's all the same so that none of it can really contradict any other part of it.
    JediGirl_Angelina and cwustudent like this.
  11. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Because it's not one of the main movies.


    Or by people who simply are taking what Lucasfilm has stated, literally:


    Not everybody who calls TCW EU dislikes it. Some love it.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Jun 10, 2013
    Mia Mesharad likes this.
  12. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Well, that's not quite an answer to that line of argument. In fact, that position invalidates this whole line of argument completely - if nothing but the six movies is "real", then the whole conversation is pointless.

    Also, why six movies? Why not seven movies? The TCW movie was a Lucasfilm-produced Star Wars movie. Why is it relegated to "EU"? Because it was CGI? Hate to tell you this, but Attack of The Clones wasn't much different. That it wasn't directed by Lucas? Neither were Empire or Jedi. That it wasn't scripted by Lucas? Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan wrote Empire.

    But that's all beside the point, which was that if we're going to accept that book's statement, all it does is make Bail Organa look worse and worse.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not knowing about the Sith isn't necessarily an indication of stupidity - as has been pointed out.

    Now, since by the end of the book he knows, and has accepted, that the Sith are a threat that "makes the Separatists look like playground bullies" - and since by RoTS there's hints that he at least knows Palpatine is Sith (since Obi-Wan and Yoda openly talk about hiding Leia & Luke from the Sith in front of him, and he rescued Yoda from Palpatine's forces after Yoda tried to kill Palpatine) - I can see the argument that at that point he shouldn't be so picky about ex-Separatists.

    But, as the Warfare quote says- they do accept ex-Separatists into the Rebellion. As long as they agree to work toward the same goals.

    Any resistance organization is in danger of collapse if the ideologies are too diverse. Organa & Mothma are not being short-sighted, but cautious.
  14. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    Someome made that argument. I just don't buy it. Is it a sign of stupidity for some working schlub sitting in Dexter's Diner? Maybe not. For a Republic Senator, who's supposed to be cultured and educated and know about the lessons of history? Definitely.

    Again, that's being too picky. If the US and Britain had said we wouldn't work with Stalin unless Russia worked towards the goals of free market democracy, the Nazis would still rule Europe and there wouldn't be a Jew left alive in the whole Eastern Hemisphere.

    And any resistance organization is in even more danger of collapse if they get wiped out because they were too small and weak to put up a good fight.

    Neither, actually - they're just being stubborn, inflexible, ideologically rigid, and stupid.
    Last edited by Narutakikun, Jun 10, 2013
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
  16. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    Maybe this is something Rebels will touch upon?
    Last edited by Trebor Sabreon, Jun 10, 2013
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  17. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    I see your point, but I'm going to say that, beyond making it easier to destroy an unsuspecting Jedi Order from within, Palpatine stuck with the Republic because after being gutted by secession and taxed by three years of warfare, the the hollow, rotted-from-within and corrupt nature of the Republic may have made it easier for Palpatine to declare himself absolute ruler over than a victorious, idealistic and powerful CIS would have been?
  18. Dan_Grievous_Tikkes_Fan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4


    It is simple. It all starts from the fact that the CIS-rulling council factions like the Techno Union and Trade Federation were promised free reign if they won the war. A natural corporate behavior. Why just be controlled by the system, when you can become the system or fuse with the system. I bet that was on Gunray and Tikkes's minds when they joined - to become the heads of state and to allow themselves to do whatever they want. After all, that was there goal in the war. Tikkes himself fled the Republic to avoid charges of corruption and operating in slave trade.

    Their joining of the CIS was sort of a "Two birds with one stone" deal. They came on Dooku's side with all the money and funds for a war, and the fact that they were with the CIS brought more systems in the Confederate fold.
    Greed attracts greed, fear attracts fear. That is how the CIS operates and it glorious. So much better than the mindless pawns of the Empire with their putz of a Sith Lord Vader.

    And let us be honest all the peaceful and single-planet systems were kinda just a stupid bunch of sheep. Sure all characters in the Saga were sheep in Palpatine's hands... sorta. He was not all-powerful, but planets like Naboo, Alderaan and Mandalore were the worst. They were the best pawns of Palpatine's rise to power.


    Yes, there were powerful structures on the Republic side... not in any planetary form, but more like a less-violent and obvious version of CIS-alligned beings and corporations.
    Republic Sienar Systems comes to mind.




    Kinda obvious... IMO Palpatine did all this just so he could not be in spotlight. Something you are missing in that argument. All attention was diverted over to Dooku and Separatist Council. They were the main force to draw the Jedi's attention away from Palpatine's machinations.
    TheCIS likes this.
  19. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    The failure of the CIS to get bigger was the Sith's own doing. They left the crumb trail leading Obi-Wan to Geonosis and left the Republic a Clone Army with which to strike at the CIS, winning the first conflict of the war and interfering with the CIS' plans at expansion.That was a path the Sith imposed on themselves and they could have easily have made alterations.

    The Republic was corrupt. The bureaucrats are on the TF's payroll and controlling the Chancellorship. Palpatine sets up Dooku as the leader of a very powerful entity and is able to do so because it is true that the Republic is corrupt. Dooku is able to manufacture super weapons, enslave populations, and has an army of billions. Pretty much everything that the Empire has later. Palpatine could have had that all sooner if he simply took Dooku's place rather than set Dooku up as a strawman enemy.

    Palpatine uses the excuse of the Naboo incident to rally other systems into a Separatist Alliance --> the Republic fracturing and attempting to arm itself to hold itself together --> political squabbling --> more systems joining the CIS due to strains of providing for an army --> "not enough Jedi to protect the Republc" (Mace's own words)

    Palpatine would be able to wipe the Jedi out, the Republic would fall, and he would have everything the Empire had. Vast sums of wealth, slaves, a massive army, super weapons.

    Mace's exact words are that there are not enough Jedi to oppose the CIS. It is only with the Sith's help in providing an army for the Jedi in the form of clones that they manage to draw the war out for three years. Had he simply not given the Jedi an army it seems like they would have fallen sooner. And had he allowed the corruption to fester in the senate in how to fight the CIS (without a clone army) he likely could have driven a wedge between the Senate and Jedi, reducing the chances that the Republic would continue to shelter the Jedi in the form of people like Bail Organa providing them assistance.
  20. Mzukiller Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    The simple answer is that Lucas, Filoni and whoever else thought it would be more "dramatic" if the most powerful people in the galaxy were each unanimously against the very Republic which had been providing for them all this time.

    The complex answer is probably that Dooku hand picked the most powerful systems and overthrew their leadership to recruit more support for his literal and metaphorical war machine.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  21. Trebor Sabreon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 15, 2010
    star 4
    While not space forces, TCW does show us the people of Christophsis and Ryloth offering armed resistance. The humans of Naboo has at least security volunteers, if no standing army, but the Gungans have an army of their own. Kashyyyk has it's share of warriors, of course. Dac has a large fighting force. Onderon eventually sided with the republic.

    All of these systems were shown to require assistance from the Republic, in one form, or another, but it does, I think, suggest that the situation wasn't all that dire. It wasn't just a case where the GAR is forced to constantly come to the aid of a completely defenseless people for three years.

    Plus, I think it bears noting that an OOU decision was clearly made to showcase the Jedi and clones, so, much to my chagrin, we were never given an arc where we followed the adventures of a planetary or systems force, fully capable of defending themselves from the CIS, free of Republic support (which I think could have been really great).
  22. WatTamborWoo Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 22, 2011
    star 3
    It is interesting @Darth Valkyrus. The way I saw it was that in TCW the difference between The Republic and Seperatists became quite grey.
    Certainly the Jedi were basically good and the Republic had good intentions like Padme's work. But the point TCW was getting to was "Heroes on Both Sides" in ROTS and the "fog of war". In short, the Republic was creating the war because Darth Sidious was behind it and the Jedi had lost their own identity. Some of those who sided with the Separtists did not like the warmongering Republic. In the end Padme led a group of 2000 as another breakaway group within the Republic. The "Phantom Menace" was not the Neimoidians (and their greedy ilk like the banking clans) but Palpatine. The PT was not as simple a good vs bad story as the OT. It was out of this turmoil that someone who was seemingly selfless became so selfish (ie: Anakin). The clarity of good vs bad in the OT was the outcome of greyness in the PT and TCW tried in its way to show that. Hence, the Separatists could seem attractive to some systems.
    Last edited by WatTamborWoo, Jun 16, 2013
  23. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Bottom line was, Darth Sidious wanted the alien owned corporations' power and influence in the Senate to be vanquished, so they could run everything in the end — and that includes commerce and trade. Hence the reason why they were all alien, and why they were made to look like the bad guys.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Jul 27, 2013
  24. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Feb 28, 2003
    star 4
    One thing I wanted TCW to touch upon was the CIS' plans for the Death Star. Hopefully some TCW novel or comic will address it (if it hasn't already).

    I mean, in AOTC the CIS leaders were not expecting the Republic to have an army. Dooku was the only one privy to that. Dooku told the others that the Republic would be overwhelmed by the droid army of the CIS and feigned disbelief when the Republic showed up with an army. Poggle then shows that the CIS is in possession of plans to make the Death Star. Meaning that they had the plans to make a weapon - that could destroy a planet - before they were aware that the Republic had an army and navy to defend itself with. So the Death Star could not have been intended as a weapon of war. The only conclusion that I can arrive at is that the CIS intended to construct the Death Star and use it exactly as Palpatine ultimately did. To coerce the galaxy into compliance. Only instead of an Emperor, it would be led by an oligarchy of corporate leaders.

    Obi-Wan also seemed familiar with the Death Star in ANH. I used to always just assume that the Force gave him that insight, but after AOTC and with TCW on the air, I figured a story was there that could show the CIS beginning construction of the weapon as their trump card. That could also send the senate's panic level into hyperdrive, get the galaxy to hate these corporate would-be dictators, give Palpatine whatever power he could possibly want, explain why Obi-Wan recognizes the Death Star.

    Anyway, the point being that there seems like there would have had to have been a backroom dealing among the CIS leaders. That the CIS was not going to just be a political entity in which they would be free of Republic regulations, but in which they would ultimately establish themselves as tyrants over the galaxy at large, both the Republic and the poor saps that got duped into thinking their voices mattered in the Separatist Senate.
    purplerain and Trebor Sabreon like this.
  25. SeparatistFan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2012
    star 1
    A war arc like that not featuring the Republic would have been great.
    Trebor Sabreon likes this.