Why did Anakin 'have to' be a little boy?

Discussion in 'The Phantom Menace' started by Darth_Howell_III, Mar 27, 2005.

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  1. Darth_Howell_III Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 4

    You guys ever hear of John Lennon? His howl for his missing mommy was never far from his lips, right to his dying day.

    I had Kenobi figured for his late 60's in the OT (this was supported by EU material). Now it seems Kenobi needs to become over a decade younger to agree with the PT Anakin/Vader.

    These characters are younger than Lucas originally pictured them. Now he's got to re-film the end of ROJ, ratify some retroactive laws about force-ghosts, and ask you to accept that Kenobi is only around 50, when all your life, your eyes have been telling you that he is in his late 60's.


    I am thinking that the "there was no father" angle figures prominently in this revision. That issue is much more poignant and vibrant if is semi-recent.

    Were the other "Chosen Ones" - in mythology and lore - heralded as such in their adolescence?
  2. BasherTroll05 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 2
    Darth_Howell_III posted on 3/28/05 3:47am
    You guys ever hear of John Lennon? His howl for his missing mommy was never far from his lips, right to his dying day.

    I had Kenobi figured for his late 60's in the OT (this was supported by EU material). Now it seems Kenobi needs to become over a decade younger to agree with the PT Anakin/Vader.

    These characters are younger than Lucas originally pictured them. Now he's got to re-film the end of ROJ, ratify some retroactive laws about force-ghosts, and ask you to accept that Kenobi is only around 50, when all your life, your eyes have been telling you that he is in his late 60's.


    I am thinking that the "there was no father" angle figures prominently in this revision. That issue is much more poignant and vibrant if is semi-recent.

    Were the other "Chosen Ones" - in mythology and lore - heralded as such in their adolescence?


    />

    Howell,

    If you want Lucas' reasons for making Anakin a ten year old child in TPM, a quick google search will answer that for you. Or you can just pop in the TPM DVD and watch the "Making of" docs or listen to the audio commentary.

    I assure you, he goes in quite a bit of detail on the matter./>/>
  3. Azhrei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 1
    I like the idea of Anakin as an innocent, selfless young child, because we get to see him as a sulky teenager later, and his downfall even later than that. It's called character development!

    However, to add to the argument, I'd just like to point out that Anakin didn't seem to be very emotionally stunted because of being a slave - in fact he seemed rather happy with life. He and Shmi did mention the chip implanted in their bodies that will have them explode if they wander too far, but though Watto abused Anakin's skills as a technician and as a pilot (who else would force a ten year old child to get involved with a race no other human can do? Even assuming that he was racing at only ten - there were at least two other races he took part in at Boonta Eve) neither of them were mistreated by Watto.

    Mos Espa seems to have been more of a trade centre than Mos Eisley was - assuming Luke often visited Mos Eisley, of course, stuck out on that secluded farm. Anakin had access to all of the pilots who flew in from the Republic, and wherever else, and he mentions this to Padme.
  4. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    You guys ever hear of John Lennon? His howl for his missing mommy was never far from his lips, right to his dying day.

    Right. In other words, he let it out. Anakin didn't. The Jedi forced him to suppress his emotions.

    I had Kenobi figured for his late 60's in the OT (this was supported by EU material).

    And the EU material doesn't count.

    Now it seems Kenobi needs to become over a decade younger to agree with the PT Anakin/Vader.

    A decade younger than what? Your perception of him?

    These characters are younger than Lucas originally pictured them. Now he's got to re-film the end of ROJ,

    Re-film it? The Force ghosts are still there. It's just that Sebastian Shaw's head has been replaced with Hayden's.

    ratify some retroactive laws about force-ghosts,

    Huh?

    and ask you to accept that Kenobi is only around 50, when all your life, your eyes have been telling you that he is in his late 60's.

    Funny how "I thought he was in his late 60s" becomes "your eyes told you he was in his late 60s." We were never told how old Kenobi was. And with all he's been through, it could very well age him before his time.

    I am thinking that the "there was no father" angle figures prominently in this revision. That issue is much more poignant and vibrant if is semi-recent.

    Er...okay.

    Were the other "Chosen Ones" - in mythology and lore - heralded as such in their adolescence?

    I think they were heralded as such from birth.
  5. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Lucas made him a 9 year old to appeal to the younger kiddie demographic.


    He's become the Michael Jackson of filmmaking.

    Childish appeal, not for the child in all of us. Big difference.
  6. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Lucas made him a 9 year old to appeal to the younger kiddie demographic.


    He's become the Michael Jackson of filmmaking.

    Childish appeal, not for the child in all of us. Big difference.


    Is that why he says ROTS may get a PG-13 rating and that he wouldn't advise parents to take small kids to it?

    Wow, this is my 8,000th post!
  7. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    This topic is beginning to spiral down. Let's get it back up to an acceptable level to avoid a lock, shall we?

  8. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Shelley
    Is that why he says ROTS may get a PG-13 rating and that he wouldn't advise parents to take small kids to it?

    Which movie forum is this again? Oh, TPM. ;)
  9. Azhrei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 1
    I wouldn't describe your last post as helpful to the thread, nor relevant either, Shane P.
  10. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    nor relevant either

    And Shelleys comment about the rating of ROTS was?

    This is about TPM, not ROTS Azhrei.
  11. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    ShaneP, you said that Lucas has become the "Michael Jackson of filmmaking." That, to me, looked like you were saying he still is what you call "the Michael Jackson of filmmaking." So me bringing in the possible PG-13 rating for ROTS and him saying that parents shouldn't bring their kids to it was entirely relevant.
  12. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Except that wasn't what I was saying. I was talking about him putting in Anakin to appeal to the kiddie demographic.

    Re-read my post.

    My post said that him casting Anakin and TPM's kiddie appeal was Jacksonesque. You responded by using something pertaining to the rating of ROTS.

    Where's the relevance?
  13. Strilo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2001
    star 8
    Hey I JUST issued a warning asking people to get this topic out of the spiral and back on track! ShaneP what do you think I meant? Your post following mine continues the crap!

  14. WLDB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 11, 2004
    star 4
    I think they had to show him as a kid. I wish he had been around 12 instead of nine. That way he would be a bit smarter and understand more.
  15. Azhrei Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2004
    star 1
    ShaneP -

    Just because it is your opinion that Lucas deliberately made Anakin a nine/ten year old child to please the kiddy demographic, doesn't make it true. We're talking about the benefits and disadvantages of the situation, and whether it was necessary or not, and all you've done so far is let everyone know that you think he sold out to the kids.

    Star Wars is FOR kids. They are inherently childish, all of them, even Empire Strikes Back. They're the Flash Gordon's of yesteryear with added budget. We all grew up with Star Wars, but we forget from time to time that as much as we like to discuss concepts like Jedi, the Force and lightsabers in quite adult conversations, the core of it all is still very childish. Star Wars appeals to the child in all of us, regardless of how we talk about such concepts.

    I didn't find young Anakin any more annoying than Luke whinging about going to Tosche station to pick up some power converters. In fact, I found Luke much more annoying than the selfless, gifted child doomed to slavery and yet with a remarkably upbeat look on life, willing to help complete strangers with no thought to his own well being.

    "You should be very proud of your son. He gives without any thought of reward."
    "Well, he knows nothing of greed..."

    I'm not saying Luke wasn't anything like him, I'm saying Luke was an annoying, whining teenager, and that annoys me much more than Anakin's youth.

    Again, it's your opinion, not a fact. So you should've written something like, "I feel Lucas sold out to the kids on this one", not "Lucas betrayed us all. He sold out to the kids, I know this for a fact because he told me."

    Well, you know what I mean.
  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    :)

    I think it would've worked better to have Anakin already as a apprentice at the start of TPM who then ventures back home when they have to repair their ship.

    It would push forward Anakin's story, but still allow him to develop a relationship with Owen and Shmi on-screen.


  17. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    I think it would've worked better to have Anakin already as a apprentice at the start of TPM who then ventures back home when they have to repair their ship.

    I don't. And neither did Lucas. He doesn't go for what is cool or what audiences would prefer. He goes for what best serves the story he wants to tell.

    It would push forward Anakin's story, but still allow him to develop a relationship with Owen and Shmi on-screen.

    But he didn't need a relationship with Owen. As for Shmi, him being a child showed how strong his attachment was to her was. Had he been a young man who had already left to be an apprentice, his attachment to her wouldn't have been nearly as strong.
  18. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    As for Shmi, him being a child showed how strong his attachment was to her was. Had he been a young man who had already left to be an apprentice, his attachment to her wouldn't have been nearly as strong.

    All he'd have to do was write it that way for it to be as strong.

    Teens still have a strong bond...and they are also old enough for many of their actions to be amazing, yet possible.

    By making him 9, Lucas then had to jump way ahead for AOTC in order to make him a credible age for a padawan able to fall in love.
    Because he jumped so far ahead, we missed alot of his character development between TPM and AOTC. In TPM he was an innocent little moppet. In AOTC suddenly he's this whiny, petulant stalker.

    Why? What happened?

    We don't know because it occurs off-screen.

    If Lucas had made Anakin a teen, he could've still showed a "rite of passage" moment where he revisits his mother and Owen, and is pressured to stay, yet leaves again.
    This would also allow AOTC to be just a few years beyond TPM and pick up with Anakin developing into a whiny stalker.
  19. Chaotic_Serenity Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 10, 2004
    star 4
    Why should he write it that way to be "strong" when he can write it the way he envisioned it in his head? Not everyone who watches AOTC finds it ridiculous, else Anakin would have failed as a character - and he *didn't.* Not everyone loves the prequels, but even most people I know who hate AOTC find Anakin to be a fairly dynamic character. I always found Anakin's personality to be fairly plausible, and I can even connect a good portion of the traits to ones seen in TPM Anakin. Is it so hard to believe that nice people turn into jerks when they grow older? It happens all the time, and often for no good reason, without even having the damaging history that Anakin has.

    One year passed between ESB and ROTJ, and Luke Skywalker was a completely different guy from the cocky kid we saw blowing up the Death Star. We don't have to see everything to extrapolate why people don't change. Is it really so hard to connect that Anakin being separated from his mother at a pivotal age, then being thrown into an environment that teaches repression of deep emotion, all the while having the "Chosen One" prophesy floating about, is part of the reason of why he has problems in AOTC? Anakin has flaws in AOTC, severe ones, but he's not a god-awful person. He does have good traits that still appear. When I watch AOTC, I think we have a decent blend of Vader and TPM Anakin. He's a dark and conflicted character, but one who had an inner goodness that people like Padme, Obi Wan, etc. were still able to see and love, and whom the audience recognizes and sympathizes with.

    The movie could have used some improved editing to convey certain aspects of his character better to the audience, but I connected with the character despite that, and I know I wasn't the only one who did.


    If Lucas had made Anakin a teen, he could've still showed a "rite of passage" moment where he revisits his mother and Owen, and is pressured to stay, yet leaves again.

    And if that happened, he would be OOC. Anakin's whole problem is that he *can't* let go. Put him in that situation, and you either have Anakin staying, or winds up in an emotional mess over it. He simply cannot mature properly and move on pyshologically. That's his most hindering, selfish flaw. This is what leads him to the Tusken slaughter after his mother's death. This is what leads him to enter a relationship with Padme despite the dangers. That is what makes him susceptible to the dark side.

    Anakin's tie with his mother and his emotional attachment to people in general is integral to his downfall. He would not have that if he had been an apprentice in TPM and not grown up with his mother.

    Even if you were to continue the thread of Anakin being late into the Order with the same background, it would lose emotional impact if you start him off within the temple at the beginning of the movie. Then you'd have to rely on dialogue to convey Anakin's past. A conversation between Obi Wan and Yoda about how Anakin is showing problems detaching himself from his mother is not going to be anywhere near as powerful as the visual of a little boy hugging his mother goodbye for what may be forever to the sound of a haunting musical score in the background. Dialogue gives you backstory quickly, but it removes a layer of sentiment. In fact, one of the flaws I think TPM has is that it continually misses opportunities to reflect the plight of the Naboo through images rather than words.

    The visual stimulant that TPM provides for us regarding Anakin's childhood is intrinsic to understanding aspects of the characters. Watching his body language at the dinner table or when he's badmouthing Sebulba, we see some of Vader's mannerisms. Anakin's life arduous life as a slave is reflected through his dirty appearance, the poor condition of his clothes, the poor look of his home, their meager dinner, his anger over Padme's comment, etc. The excellence of Anakin's piloting skill is reflected in the pod race (I heard people complain all the time that they think the PT "talks" too much about
  20. BasherTroll05 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2005
    star 2
    ShaneP,

    You called Anakin a "stalker" twice. Last time I checked a stalker is a guy who harasses a girl who he doesn't know or doesn't like him.

    Since Padme enjoyed their time together as much as Anakin did, kissing him and telling him "I truly, deeply love you", I don't think he was stalking him.

    In short, you keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means. ;)
  21. Lukecash Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 4
    The continue argument that he should have been a teenager because it "pushes the story further"

    Pushes it further from where? The begining? You mean TPM.. which is what it was.. a begining.

    Anakin for a mojority of reason needed to be a child. Being this young, the movie answers many questions that an older Anankin would have failed to do.

    For example: Where was his father? What was he like? Was he always this moody? There is a pure joy that we see in Anakin at this age. He is not troubled by his hormones.

    The Slave begining not only harkens back to a myth motiff, but also shows how he reacted to harship. Under the loving care of his mother, he becomes a very brave, selfless, sensitive little boy.

    Once removed from that, he becomes fearul, selfish and confused boy.

    This rush toward darkness is ridiculous and plain bad storytelling. You must show the light before you fade to black.

  22. Darth_Howell_III Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 4

    Look at the "new" Anakin ghost (ROJ DVD), then look at the "old" Anakin ghost (ROJ, 1983). One played by Hayden, the other by Sebastian.

    Do these apparations depict wildly contrasting views of Anakin? Does the '1983' glimpse of Anakin look old enough to be his own father? Is this indicative of a steep, forcible revision on the part of George Lucas?


    "...when he can write it the way he envisioned it in his head...?"


    Couldn't Lucas have cast a spry young man to play the Anakin Ghost way back in '83 - if that's indeed what he 'envisioned on his head'?

    The way he envisioned it, as of 1983, was that Anakin - and the Jedi spirit in his likeness - was firmly middle-aged, and perhaps 10-15 years younger than Old Man Kenobi.


    The age ratio between Vader and Kenobi - old, and older - was firmly established in the OT, and not just by the 1983 appearance of their force ghosts.

    "That wizard's a crazy old man" - Owen

    Owen, himself, is no spring chicken when these words ar uttered. How old do you figure Owen for, and how old must Kenobi have been, to validate this statement?

    "Your powers are weak, old man." - Vader

    Does someone approximately forty years old say this to someone who is approximately fifty?


    Granted, we have to meet Anakin sometime. But what made it necessary to slide that age down this far?

    Somebody writes himself into a corner that requires such concepts as 'a 14-year-old girl elected ruler of a planet' must have a darn good reason...
  23. Durwood Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 5
    If you want to paint your house white, then that's fine. If George wants his house green, then that's fine. It's fine for people to like or dislike a green house but in the end, it is George's house to paint.

    Somebody watched Lucas' 60 Minutes interview. ;)
  24. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    LukeCash
    This rush toward darkness is ridiculous and plain bad storytelling.

    But that's what occurs off-screen between TPM and AOTC! He goes from the innocent to petulant in one jump.
    And I'm not talking about "rushing towards darkness". You're assuming that's what I mean. Not at all.

    What I mean by pushing the story up is not his CHARACTER evolution, but the story and his involvement in it.
    Having him be a teenager makes more sense and would signal the ages when all people go through rites of passage....transition. 12 is typically the age regarded as the last of childhood and beginning of puberty.
    And sorry, but we got the OOC in AOTC anyway.

    And this "he needed to be this and needed to be that" is absurd. In fact, Lucas himself had Anakin at 12 for most of the writing process and only changed it for what he felt would be a more emotional seperation from his mother. He was wrong.

    By doing this he not only had to truncate AOTC and the development of Anakin's character, but made his exchanges with Padme in TPM creepy.

    And about Luke's transition from ESB and ROTJ.....uhhh, we saw what caused that humbled, deeper Luke.....the end of ESB and Vader's revelation.

    TPM = Anakin, an innocent little moppett.

    AOTC = Whiny, spoiled, and petulant.

    What events at the end of TPM caused this? Nothing. It's not shown.
  25. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Teens still have a strong bond...

    But not as strong as a 9-year-old, and they are already well on their way to separating from their mother.

    and they are also old enough for many of their actions to be amazing, yet possible.

    How are Anakin's actions impossible for a 9-year-old?

    By making him 9, Lucas then had to jump way ahead for AOTC in order to make him a credible age for a padawan able to fall in love.

    Because he jumped so far ahead, we missed alot of his character development between TPM and AOTC.


    Just like we "missed" a lot of character development in between ANH and ESB, and that was only a three-year gap.

    In TPM he was an innocent little moppet. In AOTC suddenly he's this whiny, petulant stalker.

    He is NOT a stalker. I'm sick of people using that word so freely. Anakin does NOT "stalk" Padmé. Staring at her intensely once or twice is not stalking, and he doesn't do anything else until she gives him unspoken permission -- i.e., the come-hither look before their first kiss. After she tells him that they can't be together, he keeps his hands and his eyes to himself until she tells him she loves him.

    At worst, Anakin is clumsy in the way he expresses his feelings, which is entirely understandable, given that he's a Jedi and has no idea how to act around a girl he likes. He is by NO means a stalker.

    Why? What happened?

    He grew up and went through puberty. What, exactly, did you want to see?

    We don't know because it occurs off-screen.

    If Lucas had made Anakin a teen, he could've still showed a "rite of passage" moment where he revisits his mother and Owen, and is pressured to stay, yet leaves again.


    But that wouldn't have served the story Lucas wanted to tell.

    This would also allow AOTC to be just a few years beyond TPM and pick up with Anakin developing into a whiny stalker.

    He's NOT A STALKER.

    You called Anakin a "stalker" twice. Last time I checked a stalker is a guy who harasses a girl who he doesn't know or doesn't like him.

    Since Padme enjoyed their time together as much as Anakin did, kissing him and telling him "I truly, deeply love you", I don't think he was stalking him.

    In short, you keep using that word, but I don't think it means what you think it means.


    THANK YOU. I have never been stalked myself, thank goodness, but I know and know of people who have been, and their stalkers did stuff like trespass on their property, send them obsessive and/or threatening mail, call them constantly, dig through their garbage, follow them everywhere, etc.

    Anakin wasn't anything close to being a stalker.
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