PT Why did anakin skywalker stay on the dark-side after Padme died?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 18, 2012.

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  1. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    In the EU it isn't Sidious's existence- but the actions of him and prior Sith, that have "tipped the balance".
  2. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Oct 18, 2012
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    I always thought that Anakin turning to the darkside was part of the prophecy of him bringing balance to the force. He had to turn to the darkside for some time, then back to the lightside and destroyed the emperor, to restore balance. He had to turn to the darkside to bring balance.
  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    I think the damage to the balance of the Force was more or less already done, and I don't think the killing of Jedi directly influenced it. Did Anakin turning make it even worse? Probably not to a significant degree ( other than in the sense that it assisted Palpatine's power grab and enabled his acts as Emperor ), though the film does seem to dwell on Yoda's reaction to the event, and one of the early pre-ANH scripts could be seen as leaning in that direction.

    If he had used his saber on a different person, he could have fulfilled the prophecy in the Chancellor's office without turning.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Oct 20, 2012
  4. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Another thought. What was the Jedi plan of bringing balance to the Force? Were they trying to destroy merely the sith empires, who ruled the galaxy as tyrants, or were they trying to hunt down all the Sith themselves? Even more complex, when the prophecy was in existence, was the Rule of Two in place? Two sith at a time, a master and an apprentice, and it was a cycle that continued for years, or where there large groups of sith?
  5. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Most of the answers to this stuff come from the EU.
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    I think they were trying to get rid of the Sith order. I don't think the Sith species was even considered to be around anymore at the time of the films.
  7. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Here's what doesn't make sense about anakin turning to the darkside. After Padme died of a broken heart due to all the bad things he did while serving the Emperor, he supposed went mad and consumed in darkness, and concentrated all of himself on the darkside and power, and ruling the galaxy. At that point, he became, a classic villian, not just the desperate person who wanted to protect his wife and made a pact with the "devil", aka Palpatine. He started out as someone who wanted to save others, but then one thing led to another.

    If anakin decided to go turn to back to the lightside at the moment padme urged him to go away with her, while they were on Mustafar, she never would've died, therefore his madness and 20 year long life of evil with the Death star in episodes 4-6 either wouldn't have happened, or he wouldn't have been as evil.
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Problem being that- at the moment when Padme's urging him to go away- he's still believing, very strongly, in Palpatine's idea that steeping himself in the Dark Side will give him the power to save her. Turning back from the Dark Side isn't very feasible when he believes that much.
  9. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    When exactly did Anakin have a desire to get power? After Padme died, or before? He hinted that he wanted to rule the galaxy with her on Mustafar, so that might be a hint for his motives.
  10. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    He hinted that he thought "someone wise" should rule the galaxy as early as AoTC- even if "not me".
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 20, 2012
  11. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    I think Anakin always wanted the power to make things the way he wanted them to be – to make the galaxy a better place – which is not surprising considering he spent the first nine years of his life as a slave. I think that desire for power became greater when he failed to save his mother, at least after Shmi’s burial he tells Padmé that someday he will be the most powerful Jedi ever and that he will learn to stop people from dying.
    Last edited by FARK2005, Oct 21, 2012
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  12. Valairy Scot Chosen One

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    Many well-meaning people pursuing "good" or "peace" or otherwise desirable things can trample others in their crusades. Belief in one's "rightness" dismisses other possibilities and often leads to demonizing alternate viewpoints, often leading to suppression and then brutal suppression. Peace, for example, becomes the stamping out of disagreement and forced compliance to one man's/woman's/movements view.

    Is peace without freedom suppression? Is diversity of viewpoints without consensus peace?

    I'm not sure I would trust anyone, in RL or in the GFFA, to have the "right" answer.
  13. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

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    Jan 6, 2012
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    "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

    Padme wasn't the only reason Anakin had issues with the Dark Side. It may have been the biggest and the one reason that put him over the edge, but also remember Anakins Ideals of how things should be run. As we saw in AoTC and RoTS, Anakin had a lot of influence from Palpatine. We then see in ESB that as Vader he still holds onto the idea of his vision of a perfect order where he rules (with Luke at his side). Anakin thought that ppl needed to be told how to behave and act, and he was the one that was best to tell them. Re-watch the scenes from AoTC where Padme and Anakin are having their picnic and you can hear Palpatines influence on Anakin, and how Anakin agrees with it...
  14. DRush76 Force Ghost

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    Jan 25, 2008
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    I think the damage to the balance of the Force began LONG before Palpatine became the Emperor. The fact that the Jedi and the Sith were constantly trying to destroy one another, instead of co-existing, only tells me that neither truly understood what balance to the Force really meant.
    Last edited by DRush76, Oct 22, 2012
  15. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    In an interview George Lucas states that Anakin brought balance to the Force by destroying the Sith (Palpatine and himself), so in Lucas’ mind the balance of the Force was ruined by the existence of the Sith and could only be restored by their destruction (at least that’s what he thought in 2005) – not by having the Sith and the Jedi coexist – which also means that Anakin did indeed help in unbalancing the Force (though not by killing the Jedi as I thought, but by joining the Sith) before rebalancing it at the end.
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  16. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Yeah, but an epic prophecy could work either way, with Sith and jedi coexisting, and sith being defeated. But I prefer the latter. It's simpler, makes more sense, make's Vader's choices seem more interesting. He joins evil for a very long time, but, in the end, evil is defeated and he fullfills his destiny.

    Here's what i don't get though. I watched the Chosen one featurette, where George Lucas said that darth vader is the chosen one, because, he "destroys the sith, meaning himself and the emperor". That doesn't make any sense, what that means. He threw the emperor down the death star's reactor shaft. But what about Anakin skywalker, "destroying himself". That's a very vague phrase that could mean a lot. Did it mean that he turned back to the Light side of the Force, therby destroying his sith persona? Or, does it mean that Vader died as a sith?

    I don't see how Anakin turned back to the light side at all. He saved his son. Yes, but he did all those atrocities, such as being responsible for the deaths of many Jedis, including younglings and others as a traitor, he just stood there and let billions of people die on Alderaan, and probably did much more bad things behind the scenes and much more if the rebels didn't stop him. But he turned against his evil master to save his son, which is what lots of evil rulers would probably do. He did not do it out of true repentance. He did it because he felt bad for his son. It doesn't make him good, in my opinion, despite doing a good deed and saving someone's life. If Vader lived somehow, he wouldn't have joined the rebels, he would probably become another ruthless emperor of the galaxy himself. Anakin did not help the rebels defeat the empire at all. Had he betrayed the emperor out of regretting the bad things he did, it wouldn't excuse the bad things he did, but it would at least put him on the good side at the end. But he didn't.
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    In The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader, we see the whole scene from Vader's point of view- we see Vader's realization that Luke does love him- we see that "In that moment he was no longer Darth Vader, he was Anakin Skywalker" and we even see Obi-Wan teaching Vader, after he's died but before he "fades" how to retain consciousness.

    You seem to like asking "What if" questions- there are 3 comic books called "Infinities" each based on a different "What if" moment in each movie.

    In RoTJ Infinities, Vader does not die on the Death Star II- Luke and Leia rescue him. And he joins the Rebellion and dyes his armour white- and volunteers to help them hunt down the Emperor (who's escaped).

    So yes, he probably would have joined the Rebels.
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    It did, and it was due to the actions of a Sith, the master of Tenebrous.

    By trying to destroy the Sith, the Jedi show that they know exactly what restoring balance to the Force means. We know this from Lucas if for some reason the films alone are not enough. The Jedi and the Sith are not meant to coexist. The balance of the Force is a balance between the sides of the Force, not a stalemate of Force-users.
  19. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Oct 18, 2012
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    Darth Vader having white armor is the dumbest idea I ever heard. So, he turns good, and he gets white armor. No. I hate the idea that with the black robot suit, breathing and samurai mask and deep voice, he's vader, but without the mask and suit, he's anakin. I read wookipedia, and in the scene where "vader" saves Luke and throws palpatine down the reactor shaft, he's still anakin skywalker, he is then a jedi and lost his sith identity, even though he has that black samurai helmet and robot body. Wikipedia refers to Vader as anakin, in episode 6, when he turns good, even before he takes off that scary looking samurai helmet and the James earl jones voice and breathing. He's still the same persona as the handsome young anakin from episode 1, 2, and 3, despite having the "vader" suit. His suit has nothing to do with him being vader. Likewise, in episode 3, after he is knighted, he becomes Vader, even with his rock singer long hair and whiny voice of Hayden Christensen.

    At what point did Darth vader lose his Sith identity and become Anakin Skywalker again? At what point did he cease to be darth vader? Before the throne room of the Emperor scene? The second that Luke said he would never turn to the darkside? When he gets up and stands there, while the emperor tortures Luke?

    Luke would have survived the force lightning. He didn't need anakin to help him out and throw the emperor. It wasn't that bad.
  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Jan 1, 2011
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    How do you figure that?

    While Luke is a powerful Force user, he had thrown down his weapon and was defenseless as Palpatine shocked him with lightning. And Palpatine clearly intended to kill him as he said, "Now, young Skywalker, you will die." and Luke was powerless to get up, let along stop Palpatine. Had Anakin not acted, Luke would certainly have been killed. Don't forget AOTC -- Dooku shocked Anakin with lightning for a few seconds and he was out for several minutes during which Obi-Wan battled Dooku. Had Luke continued to be electrocuted, he would have died.

    In reference to Anakin destroying the Sith -- meaning Palpatine and himself -- I think Lucas means that by killing Palpatine and rejecting the identity of Darth Vader, Anakin destroyed the Sith. He destroyed himself as a Dark Sider and his former Master. And thus, he fulfilled the prophecy.

    As to why Anakin stayed on the Dark Side after Padmé died...well, what choice did he really have? He has no family to go to. The Jedi are all but destroyed (and would not welcome him back, understandably). Plus, Palpatine has Anakin firmly within his service and could easily kill him if he attempts to go rogue.

    That and I think that Anakin is psychologically broken to a degree -- he's literally destroyed everything he ever held dear (his family, his friends, his body) and all that's left is the seductive power of the Dark Side and the lure of ruling the Empire which Anakin thinks will bring peace to the galaxy. Under such circumstances, I can understand why Anakin would choose to stay.
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  21. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    It's luke's fault that anakin died.
  22. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    If by "fault" you mean Luke is the reason that Anakin sacrificed his life, then yes, I agree.

    If you mean that Luke bears responsibility for Anakin's death, then I disagree.
  23. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    I meant both. Luke, in his anger, attacked anakin with his lightsaber, and anakin's red lightsaber fell down the shaft. Therefore, he couldn't use the lightsaber to save Luke, and sacrificed himself. Meaning, Luke also bore responsibility for Anakin's death.
  24. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    To be honest, I think Anakin wanted to kill himself. Luke even has to pull him back from the edge of the pit after all.

    If Anakin really wanted to kill Palpatine without sacrificing himself, he could have simply used the Force to telekinetically pull Luke's saber to himself (Luke throws it to the side, but not down the shaft, we can clearly hear it land). Plus, he had plenty of ways of killing Palpatine without harming himself -- snap Palpatine's neck, use a Force push to throw Palpatine over the side, etc.

    Anakin made his choice. Luke is not responsible for the consequences of that decision.
  25. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

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    Oct 18, 2012
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    Luke pulled him back from the edge of the pit? What?

    There were other ways for Anakin to save Luke, but that's not my opinion. I don't agree. Are you saying that darth vader intentionally died? Why would he do that?
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