PT Why did Dooku reveal the truth to Obi Wan on Geonosis??

Unless Palpatine contacted him in private immediately after the Emergency Powers vote, to tell him "The Jedi are on their way."

 

Dooku knew the Jedi were coming and with the Army, that was the whole point of leading Obi Wan to the Clones, and then leading Obi Wan to Geonosis. It can be easily explained that Dooku knew in advanced Obi Wan made it out as he foresaw it, or he simply was playing the odds he would. If Obi Wan made it out, then Dooku's plan works, if Obi Wan doesn't make it out, then there is no harm done anyway. Either way Dooku still wins, and he got a shot at tempting Obi Wan to see if he was able to goad him to his side.

Ugh... the whole red lightsaber debate again... In the movies, the red lightsaber means nothing to the Jedi. You can almost think that the Jedi and Sith are colorblind when it comes to lightsaber color. Sometimes there is no in-universe reason as to why something is in a movie. The reason the Sith have red sabers is because it's a visual cue for the audience, a color motif. It symbolizes the bad guy for the audience watching the movie. Red is the color of aggression, evil etc, where as the Jedi have blue and green, calmer and cooler, more peaceful colors. No Jedi is going to look at a red lightsaber and say, hey he must be a Sith because his lightsaber is red. That is why it is never brought up in TPM when Qui Gon is before the council. If a red lightsaber was proof positive of a Sith, than that's all he has to say. He doesn't because color means nothing to the characters, only to us. Just like the old westerns, where the good guy wore white, and the bad guy wore black. However, the good guy never saw the bad guys black hat and automatically knew he was a bad guy. It's all just a visual motif for us in the audience.

Yes he sensed the dark side, that doesn't mean he was a Sith. Anakin as a boy used the light side of the Force, that didn't automatically make him a Jedi. The Jedi are still under the impression that Dooku is leading a political revolt, and he has no Sith connections at the end of the movie. It is established in TPM that someone can be a Dark Side user but not a Sith, as when Mace refers to Maul as a Dark Warrior, but doesn't believe he was a Sith.

Hence the part of the story that Dooku tells Obi Wan that it was the TF that came to him (Dooku) telling him that the Republic was under the control of Sidious, and Dooku hints at that this is the real reason he is starting the Separatist Movement, to "destory the Sith". Dooku tells Obi Wan that the TF was pissed off because they were double crossed by the Dark Lord. We however know this to be a lie, but, Obi Wan doesn't know this...

 

Oh dear, are we back to this again? That Dooku ordered Jango to use the dart for no apparent reason and Jango suddenly became stupid and did so. And Dooku somehow knew that Obi-Wan would be able to trace said dart despite him removing all info from the Jedi archives. And Dooku knew that Jango would get away, not get captured, not kill Obi-Wan and he knew that Obi-Wan would be able to trace Jango and he knew that of the whole planet of Geonosis, Obi-Wan would just happen to land near him. Sorry this plan is totally contrived and is full of insane micromanaging that would have little reason to actually work.

First how do you know that Qui-Gon doesn't mention the color of his lightsaber? We don't hear the full report Qui-Gon makes. We come in when he says "He was well trained in the jedi-arts." and Qui-Gon concludes that he was a Sith lord. He obviously said more but we don't hear it.
Second, at the end of the film, the Jedi are now convinced that Maul was indeed a Sith. Why? they have learned nothing they know didn't before. Maul can use the force, fights with a red lightsabre and he is good enough to kill a Jedi. That is all Obi-Wan finds out on Naboo. Most of this they already knew. They don't even get a name.

Even ignoring the lightsabre, Force lightning is also a signature Sith power and the Jedi have apparently been taught that it can be countered with a lightsabre. So a weapon the the sith always use and a power they also use. Gee could he be a Sith?

Bottom line, at films end the Jedi have no reason NOT to think that Dooku has turned and is now a Sith.

The films don't establish any other dark side users other than Siths. Also, at the start of AotC the Jedi think that Dooku is just a political idealist. At the end they know far more, they know he has turned to the Dark side, he has been building a huge army in secret and planned to go to war with the republic. He was involved in the attempted murder of Padme and he is working with people that the Sith have worked with.
Only an idiot would refuse to think that Dooku is NOT a Sith.

Mace is uncertain about Maul, he doesn't reject the possibility.

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Obi-Wan says that he doesn't believe Dooku. And Obi-wan knows what Dooku has been up to, murder, planning for war etc. Those are not the actions of a good and noble person. Obi-Wan even calls Dooku traitor. At films end Yoda confirms that Dooku has joined the dark side and lies and creating mistrust are now his way. Even more reason to think he lied about the TF and still more reason to think he is a Sith.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The Jedi, specifically Obi Wan are purposefully being lead along to find the clones, and then to find a purpose to use such clones, which is why ObI Wan is lead to Geonosis. You don't like that story line, don't find it believable, find it convoluted.., whatever... That's your choice. This story line to me was obvious when I first saw the movie. The good ole trail of breadcrumbs that one character wants the other to follow. Prevalent in another one of my favorite movies I, Robot. However, I will always believe the man that wrote the story over anyone else.

OK lets pretend he did bring up the saber color. If having a red saber is such a powerful piece of evidence for someone being a Sith, than why aren't Mace and Ki Adi convinced? Because the color is not an indicator of being a Sith. Ventress had a red saber and she wasn't a Sith. She was a Dark Warrior. The Inquisitor wasn't a Sith, but has a red lightsaber.

Using the Dark Side or having a red light saber does not prove one is a Sith and are not only exclusive to Sith. It is obvious that the Jedi still fear that there is a potential for their Padawans to fall to the dark side, that is why they still have an age rule even with the Sith still thought long extinct. The whole age restriction is in place because an older child taken into the Jedi Order to be trained has the potential to not be able to separate his feelings from the powers he is learning, leaving a potential to fall to the Dark Side.

Anakin uses the Dark Side in AOTC for the time it takes for him to murder the Tusken Tribe, does that mean he was a Sith for that short amount of time, than pops back into the Jedi Order when he's done? The Sith and Jedi are just groups, groups that you have to be indoctrinated into, not automatically a part of because you can use either aspect of the force or have a red or blue lightsaber.

Yoda senses the Dark Side in Dooku, but, he doesn't automatically make that connection. Otherwise he would have clearly said it at the end. If it was obvious to Yoda he would have said Dooku has joined the Sith, however he doesn't he says Dooku hsa joined the Dark Side, because Yoda knows Dark Side doesn't automatically mean Sith Lord.

Edit: Oh and the Jedi believe Maul was a Sith at the end because they see it for themselves now. No different than if a well known and well respected priest came to the Pope and told them that Jesus Christ had returned. The Pope isn't just gonna believe that priest on faith, you better believe the Pope would want to see Christ for himself first before declaring his return...

The films most certainly do establish other dark side users, Mace calls them Dark Warriors, because he refuses to call Qui Gons attacker a Sith because he doesn't believe the Sith have returned.

You know what lies Dooku is telling and which ones are truths. The Jedi do not unless Yoda or Mace were sitting in the audience with you? Again, Dooku's temptation of Obi Wan was filled with truths and lies. He was trying to make a plausible case to Obi Wan to try and get him to join his (Dooku's) side of the conflict. Dooku put some truth into the conversation (Sidous) and then filled it with lies (Trade Fed came to him) in order to try and get Obi Wan to flip sides. It's really that simple. However, if for whatever reason Obi Wan gets away, then the Jedi are confused as hell as to what's going on, and Dooku hasn't revealed any information that is damaging to the Sith cause.

Dooku was not aware that Obi Wan saw the meeting between him and the Seps, unless Dooku was sitting with you in the theater?

 

Obi-wan was not alone. Anakin and Padme were there. So he knew that if they were there, the Jedi were on their way. He also knew that they were resourceful as two Jedi can deal with these beasts. Beyond that, he sees their survival and so he's not worried. Maybe Obi-wan tells, maybe he doesn't. Either way, that knowledge will get out. It is part of the plan. It doesn't matter who delivers the news.

Dooku and Qui-gon have discussed for years that the Senate and the Republic was broken. That's why he says to Obi-wan to not be so sure that Qui-gon wouldn't have fallen in line with him, if given half a chance. He believes that Obi-wan would join him because of loyalty to Qui-gon, more than the Republic. The same way Vader believes that Luke will join him over the loyalty to his friends. Yes, Obi-wan does call him a traitor. Then Dooku drops a bombshell that Darth Sidious, a Dark Lord of the Sith has control of the Senate. He's playing up the idea that the Sith control the Senate and that his actions are not treasonous, but beneficial. Together, they can destroy the Sith. Course, once he's managed to turn him, then it won't matter. Just as Vader used the revelation that they can end the war and that Luke can trust him because they are family. Father and son.

Palpatine is stronger than him. That's why he didn't suspect it. And as we know, Ventress served under the two of them. And the novelization states that Palpatine lied to him about abolishing the rule.

 

@mikeximus

I have only a little time and will get back to the rest later, but quick comment.

They saw him? That is all the evidence they need? By that logic, Yoda and Mace both SAW Dooku so if seeing is enough then they KNOW that Dooku is now a Sith.
And what did they see? His dead body? The only ones who saw Maul in action were Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, both of whom had seen Maul before. If it wasn't enough before, why would it be now?
And what would Maul's dead body tell Mace and Yoda? Does he have a Sith tatto somewhere?

As I said, they learn NOTHING they didn't before, the red lightsabre, the force powers, etc, they already knew that.
The only new thing is that Maul was good enough to kill Qui-Gon. But then again, Jango killed a Jedi master himself and he wasn't a Sith.

Obi-Wan knows some of Dooku's lies. Obi-Wan knows that Jango was involved in the attempt on Padme and he hears Nute ask Dooku about it, so he KNOWS that Dooku is the one who hired Jango. So Dooku trying to pretend he knows nothing about Jango are lies and Obi-Wan knows it.
So Obi-Wan knows Dooku is a traitor and he knows he is lying about somethings so all the more reason to view everything he says with caution.

The first word from Obi-Wan's mouth was "Traitor". Now why would Obi-Wan say that unless he had seen some of what Dooku was talking about with the other seps?

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Right, but that's before he tells Obi-wan that the Sith control the Senate. Ergo, he's telling him, "I'm not the traitor. Someone in the Senate is."

 

Yes they saw him. The Jedi Council is not just a single minded entity. They are a group of individuals. They need to discuss things, and see things for themselves. When told that one of their Jedi Knights (Qui Gon) encountered a Dark Warrior in a quick lightsaber duel, and that Jedi Knight proclaims it was a Sith Lord, they don't believe it, even after discussing it among themselves. They need to see more evidence. They need to unravel the mystery.

What they got on Naboo was more evidence. They got the Sith Lords body, and his ship. They have the Trade Federation whom I bet were more than happy to tell the Jedi who Maul was, however, they kept Sidious a secret knowing he was still out there. The Trade Federation knew that Maul was no longer a secret as they were standing there when Sidious told him to act against the Jedi first. However, the Trade Federation wasn't about to cross Sidious.

Furthermore they now had a dead Jedi Master whom was killed in a lightsaber duel, and the 2nd Jedi was almost beaten by the same attacker. This isn't some throw away, unimportant, event. It is important because that means the attacker was powerful enough and skilled enough with the Force and a lightsaber to have been taught, just as the Jedi had. This isn't some dark warrior that is self taught on some backwater planet. This was a formidable well trained and taught enemy that they had not seen before. In the day and age of blasters and guns, lightsabers were old school, and for someone to best two Jedi in a lightsaber fight and as strong as Maul was in the force, it is nothing to sneeze at. They did not see that in the fight on Tatooine, where it was a 45 second fight (give or take a second or two). Even after the Tatooine fight, when Obi Wan asks Qui Gon what "it" was, Qui Gon replies he doesn't know, but remarks he was well trained in the Jedi arts. Even Qui Gon doesn't make the connection right away, even though he had that big red lightsaber waving in his face (ya know because red lightsabers are such a huge clue to someone being a Sith) .

As for your Jango Fett remark, once again you want to over-exaggerate to make a point. Jango used a blaster, Jedi being killed by blasters is not a rare occurrence, Jango does it, droids do it, and clones do it. However, as I said earlier, Qui Gon and for the most part Obi Wan were bested in a light saber fight. A rare weapon, and even rarer that someone out side the Jedi Order could wield it as efficiently as Maul did in order to kill a Jedi, and almost kill a second.

You can dance around it all you want, there are more than reasonable answers out there as to why the Jedi finally came to the conclusion that Maul was a Sith Lord.

As far as Dooku, the evidence that is used to figure out that Maul was a Sith, isn't applicable to Dooku. He was trained in the Jedi Arts as a child, so his ability to use a lightsaber and beat two Jedi is not surprising. He was already a powerful Jedi before he left the order, so it is no secret he would be powerful in the Dark Side if he fell to it's allure. Which is all the Jedi believe has happened, that he has fallen to the Dark Side. They are still unaware that he is a Sith.

When StarWars.com still ran their own databank, before they took it down and referred everything to wookiepedia, the databank for Dooku at the end read:

Dooku escaped, with the Jedi aware of his succumbing to the dark side, but yet still unaware of his Sith allegiance. Aboard his exotic interstellar sail ship, Dooku traveled to a decrepit warehouse district on Coruscant. There, he met with his master, Darth Sidious, and delivered the good news.

lol... you really need to take the time and read what I wrote. I stated that Obi Wan knew Dooku was lying about a few things. However, the point is that Dooku did not know what Obi Wan knew.

Dooku did not know that Obi Wan was watching the secret meeting. Obi Wan is first spotted by the Geonosian sentry after Obi Wan saw the meeting and he was going back to the ship to send his report. That is why he was ambushed during his report, because it was the time needed for the sentry to alert the guards.

Dooku was tempting Obi Wan, with lies and truths. Dooku was trying to make it seem like he created the separatist movement as a way to fight the Sith, in order to try and get Obi Wan to change sides. Dooku didn't know that Obi Wan over heard them talking about Padme and making the Republic bend knee to him and the mega corps.

Obi Wan calls Dooku a traitor because Obi Wan knows what he knows. Dooku only knows that he is a traitor in the eyes of the Jedi, and the Republic because he is leading a separatist movement. Even if Obi Wan never saw the secret meeting, he would still consider Dooku a traitor to the Republic. Or do you think the Republic and Jedi would call him a patriot?

 

Apart from the attempt to turn him, I believe Dooku felt as though he had nothing to fear from the Jedi. He's felt like he won with bonding all of the droid manufacturing factions together to create an army ready to destroy the Jedi. Though I say this, it still kind of contradicts what I say, since Dooku knew about the production of the Clone Army. Although, Dooku knew that eventually, Palpatine would give the order to eliminate the Jedi. All in all, Dooku was kind of bluffing in my opinion.

 

my opinion on this is just that, an opinion and theory:

there are many things in AOTC that seemed to be the start of plot points that would be seen "paid off " in the next film, This scene I think was one of them.

Instead Lucas didn't go that route and instead made new plot points and new characters and squeezed it altogether into a rather rushed (imo) third instalment.

 

He hoped Kenobi would join him.

 

The cleverness of the Sith hiding in plain sight and the growing arrogance of the Jedi council almost cancel out each other. It's no wonder the council did not believe it, much less detect the Sith in their midst.

I like the idea of Dooku trying to break Obi-Wan with the truth though. That was a nice bit of characterization in showing the master tactician Dooku was.

 

First, my response to you was based on just this

So your argument seemed to be only about them seeing Maul's dead body, not his ship or not questioning the TF. BTW the film doesn't indicate that they did either of this.
It would make sense and I have asked this question in older threads and been told by others here that, No the Jedi never found Maul's ship and they never questioned Nute because Paplatine was able to keep them away from him. Maybe some EU stated this, I don't know. If they had found Maul's ship then they would be able to see that he came from Coruscant to Tatooine and maybe they could go through the transmission logs and find out more and try to trace where the ship was made etc.

That is why I questioned your reasoning because to me it went like this; Having a signature Sith weapon, Not Good Enough. Being strong in the Force and well trained in the Jedi arts, Not Good Enough. Being so skilled that you can fight a Jedi master until said Jedi have to make a run for it, Not Good Enough. Seeing his dead body, Oh now we are totally convinced.

The point was that Jedi are not un-killable and it doesn't take someone uber powerful to kill them. And you actually make my point for me, a lightsaber is a rare weapon, so how would some dude just be able to make one? He can't have taken one from a dead Jedi because Jedi never uses red lightsabers. So this means that he made a lightsaber himself. And in RotJ, the making of your own lightsaber is a big deal. So Maul is skilled enough to make his own lightsaber and a very special kind at that. That would suggest he isn't some generic dark side user. Also the Jedi would know he isn't a failed Jedi student as they would have those on record.

Also, in an earlier version of the AotC script, Tyrannus is Darth Tyrannus and the Jedi immediately spot him as a Sith because of the Darth title. So to the Jedi, a simple thing as a title can give away a Sith allegiance. So why not a Red lightsabre?

Again my response was against your argument that seeing Maul's dead body is the only thing that convince the jedi. Questioning Nute could work, and I have argued that they should have done this but been told that the jedi didn't have a right to do this.

Also, consider the objections the JC makes against Qui-Gon. "Impossible, the Sith have been extinct for a millennia." This seems like a kneejerk reaction, Maul can't be a Sith because the Sith are all dead. And "I don't think the Sith could have returned without us knowing it." This argument is based on a faulty premise, "If the Sith were back, we would sense it, we don't sense it, ergo they are not back." Lucas I think intended to show the Jedi order as arrogant, stagnant, set in their ways and bound by rules and dogma. The Sith however had changed and adapted and thus they could act right under the Jedi's noses.
So I saw the JC rejection as partly based on them not wanting to accept that the Sith could be back. Because they think they are on top of things and this is an uncomfortable reminder that they might not be. At the end, they have had to mull this over and they accept what Qui-Gon said, and not only because they saw a dead body.

And this is stupid. Dooku uses a signature Sith weapon, a weapon he must have changed/built since he would already have normal lightsabre. And why change to a kind the Sith are known for using if not to signify something? He uses Force lightning, which I think Lucas himself calls "Sith powers" on the AotC commentary. IIRC Lucas has also said that the term "Dark Jedi" is an oxymoron and the only Force users are Sith and Jedi.
Dooku has turned to the dark side and gotten a lot more powerful. He works with people that are known Sith collaborators. He is plotting to attack the republic with a big droid army, a similar droid army that the Sith made use of 10 years ago but much bigger and better.
And now the Jedi know that the Sith are back, they know the Sith always work in pairs and 10 years ago one of the Sith died and thus created an opening in the sith order and Dooku left the Jedi order around that time. Just coincidence?
The Jedi know all this and yet they refuse to consider that Dooku is now a Sith?
Sorry this makes the Jedi into total morons.

And this is not in the film so irrelevant.

This IS what you wrote;

I gave an example of a lie Dooku tells that Obi-Wan is aware of.
So Obi-Wan KNOWS that Dooku is a liar and untrustworthy and thus he and the jedi would not accept the stuff he said about the TF as truth. And thus they know he is working with people that are known Sith collaborators. So again plenty of reason for the jedi to think he is a Sith.

Dooku knows that Obi-Wan sent a report and since the Geonosians scouts spotted him, they could have overheard what he said then he would also know the content of that report. Or if the Kamino people intercepted his transmission. Even if we ignore all that, Dooku knows that Obi-Wan is on Geonosis and have been for some time. So it would be wiser and smarter to assume that Obi-Wan knows a lot unless Dooku have reason to think otherwise.
So on the balance, I'd say that Dooku knows that Obi-Wan is aware of what is going on here.

[/QUOTE]


Check the start of the film, Dooku is leading the seps and they are causing trouble and yet Mace and others defend Dooku from Padme's accusation and they call him a political idealist. That is evidence that the Jedi don't view Dooku as a traitor at the start of the film. However the first thing Obi-wan says to Dooku is just that. So Dooku would again know that Obi-Wan is aware of some of the stuff he has been involved in

In closing, this scene might have worked if Dooku had been introduced in TPM and he and Obi-Wan could meet and Obi-Wan likes him. At the end of TPM, Dooku leaves the order and asks Obi-Wan to join him. Then in AotC we have some history between the two and thus the offer could seem more genuine. And it would Dooku less the obvious bad guy.
As it is now, it comes across just as weak nod to ESB. To me it fails because I never once thought Dooku made any kind of serious offer and Obi-Wan had zero reason to take it seriously.
Dooku was just yanking Obi-Wan's chain and getting a chuckle out of it.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Maybe he was trying to turn Kenobi, but I think it could've been Dooku just playing with his head. At the end of the day, who would actually believe him? Not only is he a Sith, but how could the main Sith Lord be sitting right infront of the Council's eyes and not be noticed? Could be that whole theory that the PT does show, that the Jedi were becomming arrogant and did need to be "purified."

Or maybe, Dooku just had a last lingering moment of Jedi-ism. It has been shown in some of the movies that the Sith do somewhat truly believe they are making the right decisions for the galaxy. Maybe Dooku figured in his darkness, that this would be the only way to truly serve the galaxy, was to follow in the steps of the Sith and try to defeat his master. Another little hint that the Sith are also arrogant, that each believes they'll be the best man for the job.