Rogue One Why did Lyra allow herself to be killed?

The average impulse would be to protect your child at all costs first. So taking Jyn and hiding with her seems the obvious and practical thing a Mom would do.

However, Lyra is not average as shown in Catalyst, she believes in the Force even though he is not a Force wielder or Force sensitive. As said earlier, her original incarnation was as to have been Jedi, but was discarded

She and Galen have been prisoners before of governments and corporations wanting to use Galen’s brain to harness the power of the Kyber. In fact Jyn is born in a prison and Krennic “rescues” the Erso Family simply so he can maneuver Galen to keep working on harnessing the power of the Kyber crystals, first for the Republic and then the Empire. It is only through Lyra does Galen find out the true nature of the Empire, the slaughter of the Jedi and the taking of their lightsaber crystals; and, what Galen’s research will ultimately be used for. Thus, leading to the Erso family escaping with help from Saw.

So by that time Lyra not only wants to protect Jyn, she also wants to stop Krennic and the Empire which is at odds it’s with her desire to stay and protect her daughter. She doesn’t follow the plan. It is a desperate last minute turn of events which is difficult to understand in the film. But Lyra is a woman of faith who wants to prevent a great evil, who also has had enough of her family being bullied and attempts to protect her husband.

If she had been the Rebel that Saw was, she would have shot Galen. I don’t know that she wasn’t warring with herself about that, hence her hesitation to shoot. But she loved Galen too much to want to see him imprisoned again.

Anyway, those are my current thoughts.

I do feel as if I’m missing something. So I hope you all continue discussing this.

 

I actually thought Lyra's choices made sense.

Assuming we define rationality in the modest, everyday way -- making reasonable choices in pursuit of your goals -- I thought, and still think, Lyra behaved admirably, and to me it's shame she was not portrayed this way in Catalyst. (Although I liked the book in general, and happily recommend it to anyone who can stomach a grim story.)

Watching the movie, which I saw first, I took it for granted that Galen and Lyra had made a shared decision, ahead of time, to make saving Jyn their overriding priority -- a priority that they would realize, of course, by immediately calling Saw and immediately getting Jyn to the hideout. If I was correct in that, then Lyra's behavior is defensible to the extent that she A) ensured that Saw had been called, B) made a good effort to get Jyn to the hideout, and C) didn't do anything notable to detract from A or B in pursuit of other, extraneous goals like saving herself or hurting Krennic.

There's no disputing the fact that she talked to Saw, and in my opinion her decision to confront Krennic after seeing Jyn off was a good attempt at B. So I think she achieved her main goals very respectably. Although I realize that some think shooting at Krennic was just an act of pointless, suicidal violence (or an act certain to lead to capture, had the trooper's blasters been set to stun), in my opinion it served as a useful contribution to B, in that it seemed to be part of a coherent, logical plan to distract Imperial attention away from their search of the broader area, thus helping provide Jyn with additional time to reach her hiding place, and also hopefully providing Saw with a small amount of additional time to travel toward her. So I can't think of anything she did that would be a problem in terms of C, either....and so, since her behavior was based on a coherent, reasonable plan to achieve her goals, I conclude that it was logical.

This conception of logic, of course, is limited to the degree to which the means achieve the ends, or at least can reasonably be expected to achieve the ends. For other purposes people sometimes refer to alternate, more demanding ideas, but I'm not sure anybody here is doing that, and I don't want to make my post more complicated than it has to be, so I'll ignore these unless anybody says they want to go there. But assuming everyone is willing to agree with me that a behavior is logical if it reflects a reasonable plan to achieve whatever the person wants/values most in a given situation, and agrees that protecting Jyn is the Erso's priority, I think I can defend Lyra fairly well. Certainly not prove that she did the very best thing, but show that she did a good thing for a sound reason.

If we go step by step, Lyra's first action is to call Saw. (Or maybe Galen pushes the button but then Lyra talks to him, idk.) This achieved, I think she goes through the following steps:

1) gets out of sight and tries to stay that way
2) tries to position herself where she can see the landing party
3) attempts to position herself between the troops and Jyn-- if one or more move toward Jyn, she will shoot
4) since they are static, she plans to wait and watch --- so long as they aren't moving, Jyn is presumably moving toward her goal and Lyra's objective is being satisfied while the Imps waste time
5) once they start to move, she needs to interfere rather than stand by
6) because of their greater numbers, better armor, longer range weapons, presumably superior shooting skills, and so on, her chances in a shootout aren't great, so distraction is a plausible option
7) hence her sudden appearance, to surprise and throw them off balance, thus hopefully buying crucial extra seconds for Jyn
8) as the surprise starts wearing off and she loses control of the situation, she shoots -- knowing that this will add to the confusion and diversion of attention. blaster fire at the residence will momentarily distract anyone
in the immediate area, and may cause the search party to be slower and more deliberate in general. And if she hurts or kills Krennic, she potentially could further reduce the effectiveness of the unit by incapacitating their leader,
sowing additional chaos and, with any luck, reducing their efficiency down to a level that will improve the odds of Jyn finding cover, not being found once there, and surviving until Saw arrives.

The crux of this interpretation is the notion that, at least in comparison with Jyn's fate, neither Lyra nor Galen care what happens to them, while at the same time they realize that every second counts as Jyn runs to the hideout. Had Krennic's team arrived more stealthily and immediately deployed a larger, grid-searching team that tried to sneak up on them, or that was large enough to totally encircle them without gaps, Jyn's odds would have been much lower. But fortunately for them, Krennic's blundering approach has already provided them with precious extra seconds that could easily prove crucial, should Jyn's hiding place turn out to be sufficient to fool the troops.

As far as Jyn's odds of surviving on her own, I think it's to be taken for granted that Jyn is a very capable child, and one the Ersos have taken great care to train for survival in these circumstances. She knows the path to run, the importance of staying hidden and quiet, how to take care of herself while waiting for Saw, and so on -- and it will only be a short time until Saw arrives anyway, though surely it will feel like forever, especially for a terrified child. You could certainly take issue with the notion of expecting such a young child to obey perfectly under such stress --and in fact Jyn does stay and watch for far too long-- but under the circumstances I don't think it's at all obvious that she would not obey. And really, even if you have significant questions about that, it's still an uncertain judgment call -- if Lyra runs with Jyn, there will be no one standing in the way of any troops to surprise them, they will be a larger and easier target to spot, very likely less time to reach the cave due to the lower number and lesser danger of distractions, and so on. I don't by any means claim that Lyra made a *better* decision than sticking with Jyn, but I do think she made an approximately equally reasonable choice under tough circumstances.

And as far as I'm concerned, an intelligible, logically defensible plan that accords with your priorities is exactly the definition of rationality. Not necessarily of optimality, but I don't think anyone would seriously consider defining all choices as either perfect or irrational, especially under conditions of such immense stress and uncertainty.

& to conclude, let me just point out that shooting the specific trooper heading in Jyn's direction, or perhaps seriously hurting Krennic, could really have bought Jyn more time & created a higher probability of her escape than would have any other course of action. It's not definitely by any means, but I can't see how it's obviously incorrect either.

 

I still think Saw’s “you know what to do” had a double meaning. Hide Jyn in the pre-arranged spot, and try to kill Krennic.

 

So far as I know, the tie-ins do not support this theory.

 

Which tie-ins?

I’ve read the Rogue One novelizarion, Catalyst, Rebel Rising and Guardians of the Whills and none of those covered Lyra’s motivation, as far as I remember.

 

Anyone think it was suppose to be kinda a distraction.?

 

Try page 11 of the novelization (hardcover edition).

 

Thanks. I may have forgotten it, as the film further supplants my memories of the novel every time I rewatch it (which is almost too often).

 

No prob.

 

The only thing it distracted was her own daughter from escaping.

 

That's how I felt about it too. Lyra ought to have known the likelihood that Jyn would follow her to see what was going to happen. If anything, I think Lyra should have first made sure Jyn was safe and secure in the hiding spot and then gone to do whatever she was planning to do, regardless of how imminent the danger was in Galen's confrontation with Krennic. Again, perhaps that might have been what Lyra originally intended to do, but the panic set in and she decided to simply entrust Jyn to go to the hiding spot so she could then arrive at the scene of the confrontation sooner. But still, I don't know how a mother could abandon her child like that under those circumstances. Lyra's actions also display a big distrust in Galen's abilities, since Galen could have probably figured something out for the family to reunite again, which I'm sure was his plan anyhow.

Also remember that this was not the agreed upon plan between Galen and Lyra. Sure, there is the potential for Lyra making this decision and acting on her own in collusion with Saw. But that would then mean that not only did she put her daughter in more danger in the moment while it was all happening, but she also betrayed whatever pact she and Galen had made as well. If this was pre-planned between Lyra and Saw, then the Lyra panicked argument carries little to no weight at all. She needed to have been up front about it with Galen ahead of time and insisted that she also confront Krennic and develop a plan under that presumption, instead of just disregarding hers and Galen's already agreed upon plan, completely unbeknownst to Galen, and potentially putting him and Jyn even more at risk by disrupting that. For example, after catching Galen in a blatant lie about Lyra already being dead, Krennic could have easily ordered a full scale search of the homestead and surrounding landscape to find the child that Krennic already knows Galen has. Or Lets say Lyra had not been killed, then the Empire now has cause to bring in Galen as a prisoner for the attempted murder of a high ranking Imperial officer, since they would never believe that Lyra acted alone and without Galen's knowledge or help with planning it. Both of these things could have resulted in exponentially worse circumstances for the Erso's and would have been a direct result of Lyra's acting out on some plan she had made with Saw.

So while I can understand the reasoning behind Lyra's actions no matter how you slice it, I don't agree that her doing what she did was the right thing to do.

 

So I watched Rogue One for the umpteenth time the other night, and I'm now convinced that Jyn and Lyra were simply not that close. They make it a point throughout the entire movie to show how close Jyn and Galen are. There are numerous instances of this, from when Jyn is a little girl, and in the way she continually longs for her father as an adult. But not much is seen in regards to Jyn and Lyra, all we see of them is the brief moment when Lyra sends Jyn off to hide and gives her the necklace and tells her to trust the force. And Jyn hardly mentions her mother when she is an adult. Even when Jyn and Krennic have a confrontation, she's not really avenging her mother's murder by him, she is instead fulfilling her father's wishes to destroy the Death Star.

I don't mean to imply that Jyn and Lyra were distant or had a bad relationship. I just don't think they were particularly close. That happens sometimes between a parent and their child. And when it came time to confront Krennic, Lyra just wasn't really thinking about Jyn all that much, and must have figured that Jyn could handle herself by that point.

 

Lyra thought plenty about Jyn. Giving her the necklace and making sure she got into the bunker to safety. She also knew Saw would be coming to get her later, as that was part of the plan (and we saw her talking to Saw just a few minutes earlier). And so, with Nun’s safety squared away, instead of hiding in a hole with her while her husband gets kidnapped or murderer by a galactically super-powerful fascist, she decides to try to take out that galactically super-powerful fascist (and also try to save her husband in the process). A brave and selfless thing to do that could’ve resulted in countless people saved, had she succeeded in killing Krennic.

Why so many fans insist on her conforming to a schmaltzy, sentimentalist cliche of a mother is beyond me.

She acted heroically.

Yes, I think this was clear. Lyra wasn’t just a normal suburban parent. She was also a revolutionary with a shot at killing an incredibly powerful Imperial.

 

Bwahahaha. I didn’t realize it! Having now spoken directly with my pre-reincarnated self, I guess I can just retire, and float off to Nirvana?

 

This series of posts made me laugh out loud.
Was Gigoran Monk a previous Bor Mullet account?
Ooof, someone had a lot to drink this fine Saturday hot evening in south Italy.
On the plus side, I agree with both of them.

 

They are indeed both 100% correct.

 

@Bor Mullet:

I think most people would rather have their mother conform to being a schmaltzy sentimentalist cliche of a suburban parent, and remain alive and by their side. Rather than watch their mother attempt to be a brave revolutionary and run off towards certain death in a dire situation. Having a shot at killing a powerful fascist Imperial is one thing, but facing certain death by attempting it when you don't have to which results in your child being left without a parent is something else. Even Galen asked her to put the gun down.

Obviously Lyra's actions were heroic in their own right. There's no doubting that. And I'm not saying she was a bad mother for doing what she did. I've just come to the conclusion that she wasn't particularly close to Jyn, and was instead more focused on being a revolutionary rather than protecting her daughter. In addition to other factors as well, like the panic and desperation she probably felt in that situation.

And I base my conclusion more off of Jyn's life as an adult, as hardly any sentiment is expressed by anyone about her mother that was murdered right in front of her, yet numerous times we are led to understand how close she was to her father. The whole premise of the movie largely revolves around how close Jyn and Galen were. Cassian didn't say to her that her parents would be proud of her, he said her father would be proud of her. It's literally how we're supposed to interpret the ending.

The character of Lyra just seemed practically discarded in comparison to how she fits into the lives of Jyn and Galen and what happened to her. I think the implication is that Jyn and Lyra weren't all that close, based on what we factually see, instead of just assuming otherwise.

 

The plot is driven by Galen's actions, that is why he comes up so much. There is little, if any, context to bring up Lyra.

 

This, and also Galek is still alive.

 

There is plenty of context to bring up Lyra. The main villain of the movie murdered her. Of course she wouldn't be some major plot point. But there could have at least been a mention of her as being a motivation for the main protagonist.

 

The main villain of the movie about whom Jyn doesn't say anything throughout the movie, with whom she has one brief conversation, in which she mentions BOTH Galen and Lyra in equal measure? What was she supposed to say that she didn't?

 

I didn't say that Lyra was never mentioned. My point is that in comparison to what we see and know of Jyn and Galen's relationship, Lyra is hardly mentioned. Add in Lyra basically abandoning Jyn early on to run towards certain death when she didn't have to. All I'm saying is that Jyn and Lyra weren't all that close.

Let me ask this then, what factual basis is there to say that Jyn and Lyra were especially close?

 

I don’t think Lyra knew exactly what the situation would be when she confronted Krennic. And in the end, she almost killed him. Her shot just went wide and hit his shoulder.

I’m not saying Lyra is the mother I’d want. I’m simply saying that she’s a revolutionary in exile on a remote planet who has a unique and once-in-a-lifetime shot at taking down a powerful galactic space fascist. We therefore shouldn’t judge her as we would a suburban mom.

I also really dislike it when Star Wars characters in extreme situations act like upper middle class people from Orange County, such as the refugees in Obi-Wan who argue with him about “all staying together” when he offers to distract Vader. This is high-stakes war in an oppressive society and these are people with years of experience living in such dire circumstances. They should act a little different than parents might act at a PTO meeting.

The emotional moment between Lyra and her daughter before Lyra leaves seemed to imply a close relationship between the two. At least to me.

 

Fair enough.

I don't mean to say that Lyra and Jyn not being close was the only reason Lyra did what she did. Plenty of other things contributed to that. I just think that Lyra might not have if there was in fact a much deeper bond between her and Jyn that she wouldn't even risk losing, both for her sake and for Jyn's.