CT Why did Obi Wan and Yoda depend on Luke to defeat the Sith?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 24, 2013.

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  1. Klingon Padawan Jedi Master

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    Mar 5, 2013
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    Yoda and Obi Wan wanted Luke to kill Darth Vader and the Emperor. What makes no sense to me is that they wanted Luke to kill Palpatine. When Yoda was training Luke on Dagobah, we never saw Luke being trained in combat. Yoda never taught Luke about Force duels, or how to use the Force against your enemy in a fight.

    And most of all, neither Yoda or Obi Wan warned Luke about the dangers of the Emperor's force lightning. How in the world would they expect Luke to defeat Palpatine? Yoda said

    "Only a fully trained Jedi knight with the Force as his ally will conquer Vader and his emperor."

    Luke was never warned about the Emperor's force lightning, or how to duel such a powerful Sith. Obi Wan wanted him to kill Vader, and that means that he also wanted Luke to kill the Emperor too. He had no faith in redeeming Anakin, so he obviously expected Luke to do the job of killing Palpatine.

    Luke told Leia, "If I don't make it back, you're the only hope for the alliance". Leia received no force training whatsoever. And they expected Leia to defeat the Sith? At least Luke was trained as a Jedi, Leia wasn't. She doesn't even seem powerful enough to defeat Vader, let alone Palpatine.
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  2. Legolas Skywalker Force Ghost

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    Cause Luke really was the only one capable of defeating them both
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  3. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

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    Dec 19, 2003
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    I think about this as well. There is no indication that Yoda and Obi-Wan had any idea on how things would actually play out. Neither of them implied that Vader could be turned. So, it is hard to imagine how Yoda and Obi-Wan thought that Luke could defeat them both in combat. Of course now, we can assume that Yoda and Obi-Wan educated by Qui-Gon's teachings suspected that Luke would awaken Anakin and he would assist in the battle with Palpatine.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Obi-Wan seemed pretty amazed by Vader's turn away from the Dark Side in The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi.

    Suggesting "they didn't have any idea how things would play out" is still true.
  5. Klingon Padawan Jedi Master

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    Mar 5, 2013
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    True. At that point, Vader couldn't kill Palpatine is a straight up fight, being weakened and slowed down by that suit. He easily would've been killed with Force lightning. He wasn't agile enough to duel Palpatine. That's why he needed Luke, who could defeat the Emperor.

    Vader could only kill Palpatine because when Palpatine tortured Luke, he was distracted, giving Vader a chance to destroy him.

    It seems rather odd to me that they would rely upon Leia to defeat Vader and Palpatine. Yoda said in TESB that Leia was the "other" hope. Leia had no Force training and she would definitely die facing them in a duel.

    Now, I assume that Obi Wan wanted Luke to kill Palpatine and Vader, not redeem him. Obi Wan seemed pretty dismayed by Luke's suggestion that he would try to redeem his father. He said, "then the Emperor has already won", as a response to Luke's desire to redeem Vader, implying that he wasn't trusting on Luke to redeem Anakin to kill the Emperor, he wanted Luke to kill Vader and the Emperor himself.
    Last edited by Klingon Padawan, Mar 24, 2013
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  6. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

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    Yoda instructing Luke in the use of a lightsaber was storyboarded, but never put into the movie.

    I don't really need to see Yoda give Luke explicit combat instruction. Some of that stuff on Dagobah translates directly into combat. For example, we see Luke running around the swamps, swinging from vines, doing somersaults, etc. This is that Force-assisted athleticism we see used in duels in the prequels, and Luke uses it against Vader. We see Luke lifting the rocks and stacking them, trying to lift the X-Wing, he is fine-tuning his skill in telekinesis, which can obviously be used in combat. Yoda doesn't set up a dummy target for Luke to hurl rocks at, he stresses control!control!

    This is like Miyagi training, instead of Rocky training.

    Yeah, that probably would have helped.

    I see it as Lucas keeping that a secret from the audience until The Emperor unleashes it.

    It worked on me.

    The obvious assumption is that Leia would be trained by Force Ghosts Ben and Yoda.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Mar 24, 2013
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The scenes of Luke chopping thrown metal bars into many pieces, and fighting off multiple seekers at once, did manage to make it into the book.
  8. Jcuk Force Ghost

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    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    I thought Yoda chucked the towel in a bit too soon when battling the Emperor! Thought he had a bigger pair of balls than that? :(
  9. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Leia has the same potential as her brother.
  10. kubricklynch Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 10, 2012
    star 3
    I think the PT needed to a better job of emphasizing the need for Obi-Wan and Yoda to go into hiding. I mean Obi-Wan defeats Vader in a duel and Yoda basically ties Sidious. So then they just give up? So that an infant can be trained twenty years from now? How many innocent people got killed by the Empire in the interim?

    And I know Sidious had the might of the Empire behind him, but seemingly unbeatable odds didn't seem to ever stop Jedi in the past.

    Also, why they did they wait so long to train Luke? Yoda says he's too old, well gee maybe that's cause you sat on your duff for two decades.
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  11. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Dec 16, 2000
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    The meta reason being that when ESB showed, ROTJ hadn't been written yet. I'd understood that the "other" Yoda referred to was someone entirely divorced from the Skywalkers, and the original idea was that Luke would need to get hold of that potential student somehow. Leia being Luke's sister was a very late addition to the story; ESB firmly plays on the romantic relationship between Luke and Leia, it has not a whiff of the fraternal relationship that we subsequently learn about in ROTJ. Indeed that's why those "romantic" scenes in ESB and ANH play out significantly creepier in light of ROTJ -- because I think the case can be made that Leia being Luke's sister didn't enter into George Lucas's mind at all until he was writing ROTJ and had to come up with a twist as big as the one that Vader was Luke's father.

    EDIT: The in-universe reason is more straightforward: Leia was a last shot before the buzzer if Luke didn't work out, and neither Ben or Yoda had any real idea how they'd handle the problem if Luke was killed at Bespin. Obi-Wan, sitting in the glowpaint of the oneness of the Force, proclaimed that Luke was their last hope. Yoda objects, certainly, but you can make the case it's a clinging-to-hope sort of assertion.
    Last edited by Saintheart, Mar 24, 2013
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  12. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    They needed to know for sure what Luke had become- if "letting family raise him" actually works for raising a decent person, no more corruptible than the average Jedi candidate.
  13. Saintheart Chosen One

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    Dec 16, 2000
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    Yyyyyeah, which totally explains why Yoda kept snarling "Too old! He's too old to begin the training!" through half the runtime of ESB. :)
  14. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Testing Luke might be a part of it- does Luke get angry- or does he provide a reason why he's not too old after all?
  15. Jedi Comedian Jedi Grand Master

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    Oct 27, 2012
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    The best explanation I heard was from my cousin: his reasoning was that the Jedi were hated by the public at that point. If Yoda killed the Emperor, that would only prove that Palpatine was "right" about the Jedi being evil, and would strengthen public support for the Empire. So the Jedi had to sit back and let the people themselves (in this case, the Rebel Alliance) be the ones to defeat the Empire.

    (Of course, this is a personal belief. I agree they should have had an explanation in the PT.)

    In regards to the OP, this always struck me as odd when I watched the OT as a kid. I remember thinking "surely there were hundreds, if not thousands, of Jedi in the time of the Republic. If they couldn't defeat Vader and the Emperor, how is one more barely-trained Jedi going to make a difference?" It's like the mook who fires a load of shots at Superman, and then throws the gun when those don't work. :p

    Further to that logic, why wait for Luke? Why not do it themselves, as some here suggested? Why not find another Force sensitive hiding out in the galaxy?

    I know that a lot of people dislike the Chosen One storyline from the prequels, but at least that created a reason for Obi-Wan and Yoda to believe only Luke could defeat the Sith.
    Last edited by Jedi Comedian, Mar 25, 2013
  16. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    I'm always amazed when one line of dialogue takes up half the runtime of a film.
  17. Jcuk Force Ghost

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    Mar 16, 2013
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    Maybe I'm being naive but what legitimate reasons did Palpatine have for convincing the ordinary every day Joe in Coruscant that the Jedi were evil? What dealings did the 'public' have with the Jedi on a day to day basis? Where was his evidence they were trying to take over? Proper black and white evidence that was irrefutable? For over a 1000 generations the Jedi have been the guardians of peace and now all of a sudden their evil and trying to take over.Back to the every day Joe. Why would he care? His life goes on no matter what. Forget the Senate you said the public. As for the whole wait for Luke thing I dunno. Maybe they had foreseen that only Vaders son becoming a Jedi and convincing him (Vader)to kill the Emperor was the only way good could triumph. (Shrug)
  18. Ord-Mantell70 Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 9, 2009
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    Probably because Obi-wan is physically dead and can only guide Luke, because at the time of the OT, Yoda's very very old and is not supposed to be able to compete physically with the Emperor and Vader (he's more of a wise old master), and therefore Luke is indeed the last hope.

    All what you mention that's not shown in the movies (ESB and RTOTJ) can be easily rationalize to me. Either they didn't think that was necessary, or they didn't have time.
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  19. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
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    I thought it had more to do with the fact that as soon as he began serious training, the more likely he would be sensed by the sith.
  20. Beautiful_Disaster Force Ghost

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    May 12, 2005
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    I've always believed that since Anakin was "The Chosen One" that only Luke or Leia could defeat him since they are his offspring. I know the whole prophecy didn't exist when the OT was released..but it seemed to all fit together for me once the PT came out that since Luke came from Anakin, he was the only one with the power to defeat him.
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  21. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Your logic is flawed in the sense that...Obi-wan defeats Anakin in ROTS. Being the Chosen One Anakin has the most potential for power, but this does not translate to being unstoppable in combat. Also once he is in the suit, though still very powerful, he no longer has the power that he did as a full human. I'm sure in a rematch with suit Vader the ROTS Obi-Wan would have defeated him time and time again. Luke being his offspring makes it likely that he would be the only one who could redeem Vader.
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  22. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    I don't know if Palpatine convinced the everyday Joe but all he had to do was convince the Senate. I think they were pretty stupid. But it helped that the leader of the "opposition" had been a former Jedi.
  23. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 12, 2013
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    Vader states that the Emperor has foreseen that Luke could defeat him, only a fully trained Jedi could defeat Palpatine and to become that Luke had to defeat Vader. Yoda and Obi-Wan knew that Luke was the only one to complete this task and they could also see that Luke would become more powerful than the both of them
  24. anakin_skywalker_sct Force Ghost

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    Apr 18, 2001
    star 5
    I think it's fairly simple that desperate times call for desperate measures. Luke and Leia are (as far as Yoda and Obi-Wan know) the last of the Jedi, and even if they're not, being the offspring of the most powerful Jedi ever means they're the ones with the absolute best shot, even if that shot is tiny. When alive, Obi-Wan would never get near the Emperor without being killed by Vader, and Yoda had to hide on Dagobah because he could have been fairly easily found and killed anywhere else in the galaxy. I do find it odd that Obi-Wan and Yoda never reached out to Leia, though. If Luke failed in RotJ Leia probably would have been killed anyway, so you'd think they would have tried to keep her out of harm's way until Luke was dead. And they never even began to train her, so if they were waiting on Luke's death she'd be even older and further behind in training.
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  25. The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 4, 2012
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    Well clearly when it comes to the Skywalker twins age isn't a big deal. Luke pretty much became a Jedi Knight in 3 years.
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