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CT Why did Obi Wan and Yoda depend on Luke to defeat the Sith?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 24, 2013.

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  1. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 27, 2013
    There is actual footage of Yoda training Luke with his lightsaber. We know it didn't make it into the movie, of course, but I just assume that from having seen that footage, that Yoda did train Luke to fight. Then, of course, it isn't Yoda, or Obi Wan's fault that Luke didn't finish his training.

    Yoda, and Obi Wan were really never involved with the rebel alliance in their war against the empire. They never even commanded Luke to go with the rebels to Endore, so they didn't really expect him to fight Vader or the Emperor there. They never even expected Luke to fight Vader and the Emperor alone. Remember Yoda's words to him. "Pass on what you have learned." Luke could have waited years, and trained numerous jedi before confronting Vader and the emperor. He chose not to wait, but to do it all by himself.
     
  2. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It's certainly in the novelization, and, I think, the comic version. Some "reflex testing" (chopping a thrown metal bar into multiple pieces) and some seeker remote training- four or more seekers firing stunner bolts rather than the mild stinging ones seen in ANH.

    Nothing in the way of saber-to-saber practice mentioned, though.
     
  3. Aegon Starcaster

    Aegon Starcaster Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jun 27, 2013
    Haha. No. No saber to saber. But lightsaber training nonetheless. The footage is actually of the stuff in the book. I actually saw it for the first time in one of the threads here. I can't for the life of me remember which thread though. I thought it was awesome, though, and almost wished they had left it in the film. Though I'm sure it was cut for good reason.
     
  4. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    Is that what the EU books have established? That Leia was not as strong as Luke in the Force?



    The Jedi were still being hunted down via Order 66. Did you think it stopped after the Order 66 montage? And Yoda fled from Palpatine after the latter forced him to drop his lightsaber.




    The Jedi was not that popular with the public to begin with. Even Padme had expressed the Order's unpopularity with her attitude toward Qui-Gon in TPM.
     
  5. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 20, 2013
    This is a great response. I think you make a great case for why Yoda and Obi-Wan can't kill Palpatine in the interveneing years, but instead, they just have to wait it out because the populace would be against them acting earlier, and there actually is a plot point in ANH that shows that Palpatine had just become a full dictator -- he's disbanded the Senate, an action that even some of the Imperials find shocking -- so that could represent the moment when the populace has turned against Palpatine and thinks he's gone too far.

    Like you said, Yoda or Obi-Wan trying to kill Palpatine in the period between ROTS and ANH would've just made them look like murderers, plus the Empire would have still remained even if Palpatine was killed, plus Yoda already tried that and failed, plus if they tried it again, they might get killed, making it impossible for them to train Luke later on.

    It does seem like Obi-Wan and Yoda don't have much of a clue how Luke will defeat Vader and the Emperor, although I'm betting they weren't expecting Luke to turn himself over to Vader, making it so that Luke would have to deal with Vader and Palpatine at once. The Force may have told them it would work out one way or another. Or much more likely, they simply thought Luke was a long shot. That's why Obi-Wan refers to him as their "last hope." Luke's just a hope, a long shot, not a guarantee that the Jedi will win. If he weren't a long shot, Obi-Wan would've said when Luke ends his training early in TESB: "Damn, Luke can't leave now. If he had just completed his training, it was a sure thing that he'd kill Vader and the Emperor." It's also not like Luke doesn't know what he's getting himself into. He knows he's most likely going to die. He even says so: "Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

    They also may have given Luke instruction about how to resist Force lightning at some time not shown on camera (Step #1: don't throw your lightsaber to the ground), but I'm glad a scene like that wasn't shown in the films. It was an awesome surprise and those were great special effects that still hold up today. In the end, though, it seems like they didn't need to teach him how to defend himself against Force lightning. Luke throws away his weapon. He is refusing to defend himself and knows that he is about to die. If Palpatine hadn't used lightning, he would've killed him in some other way.

    Still, there is the remaining question as to why Luke wasn't taken to Yoda to be trained at a young age, but perhaps the answer to this is a pretty straight forward one. Obi-Wan may have wanted to take Luke earlier, but Uncle Owen and Aunt Beru wouldn't allow it. Uncle Owen is against Luke joining up with Obi-Wan when Luke is an adult. He certainly would've been against giving Luke away to be trained when Luke was 4-years-old.
     
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  6. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    It doesn't make a lot of sense really, but many things make less and less sense the more and more you watch SW! Why didn't they all band together in order to defeat the Sith? The only explanation is the prophecy. Although I don't really like it generally, it at least provides an explanation for this. Anakin was the only one who could destroy the Sith and Luke alone was seen as the key to bringing this about.
     
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  7. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

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    May 12, 2013
    Without getting into what Lucas did or didn't have in mind at various times when creating the Saga and taking it all at face value, it's never made a lot of sense to me why Obi/Yoda didn't go after Palps/Vader again after ROTS. I mean, at that time Vader was in the suit and not as strong as he was early on in ROTS. They were in a better position to destroy them then than before. They also could have rounded up other remaining Jedi that survived Order 66 and brought them along to help. That makes a lot more sense than waiting 20 years for Luke to mature and then give him a crash course in Jedi training when the PT clearly explains and stresses that most Jedi are taken in and begin training at a very young age. The thing with Luke should have been the absolute last resort.
     
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  8. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    It's also struck me as odd that Yoda and Ben would leave it twenty years before beginning Luke's training and then have an argument about whether he was too old to start training. You'd think they might have come to an agreement about that before he reached Dagobah.
     
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  9. Rachel_In_Red

    Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master star 3

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    May 12, 2013
    Yeah. I think (in Real World terms) it's one of those situations where Lucas had to tie the PT and OT together as best he could and there were some issues (this being one) that were hard to go back and make sense of in a backstory. But he kinda made it worse on himself by stressing age again in the PT. He didn't have to do that. Yoda said Luke was too old in ESB, and then he also says Anakin is too old in TPM even though he is only about 12 (maybe younger) at the time. Doesn't really make a lot of sense.
     
  10. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Yep. In ANH it works. Obiwan's an old guy, past his prime. Luke is just reaching the age where he can begin his training and do what needs to be done in confronting the Sith. Beyond that film it starts to get murky and the process of 'making' things fit begins. I think this is why I'm coming more and more back to ANH as my favourite. I agree that the PT creates an unnecessary issue of the age thing again by making such a big deal of it.
     
  11. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    One, where are the remaining Jedi? They were scattered over the galaxy, thanks to the Clone Wars. And Yoda and Obi-Wan have no idea how many are still living. Two, even if they had teamed up to kill Vader and Palpatine, how you do you know they would have succeeded? Why are many of you assuming that Yoda and Obi-Wan would have succeeded? And three, only a few seem willing to consider how the galaxy's politicians and citizens will react to the remaining Jedi taking on the leader of the galaxy.



    The age for Jedi training was first made an issue in "THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK" . . . by Yoda. And yet, you're solely blaming the Prequel Trilogy for this?


    Count Dooku was a great deal older than Obi-Wan, yet he managed to defeat both the latter and Anakin in AOTC, and Obi-Wan in ROTS.



    Exactly what do you think Yoda was talking about when he made these statements about Anakin and Luke?
     
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  12. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Back up the truck eh?

    In the sentence before the one you quote regarding Ben's age I said that IN ANH it works. When ANH came out there was no Dooku.

    My statement about age in the PT uses the word AGAIN, indicating that the issue had arisen previously.

    You might want to consider reading a bit more carefully before responding.
     
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  13. Oissan

    Oissan Chosen One star 7

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    Mar 9, 2001
    I don't see any problems with Yoda and Obi Wan not trying to kill Palpatine/Vader again, they simply didn't have a chance. Yoda tried to take out the Emperor when he had the best shot, in a one-on-one duel. Yoda might even have been a little bit stronger than Palpatine, but once he lost his hold and dropped all the way down the senate, his chance was gone. It's one thing to beat the Emperor, it's something entirely different to beat him when he has an army that fires at you. Even if none of them had managed to kill or even wound Yoda, they would still be a distraction for him, while Palpatine is focused only on him and doesn't mind any collateral damage he causes.

    The same with Obi Wan and Vader. Yes, Obi Wan did beat Anakin, but not because he was stronger. Anakin lost because he was overconfident, but Vader isn't the brash and impulsive kid that Anakin was. Sure, there might have been a chance for Obi Wan to beat Vader, and even a good chance for Obi Wan and Yoda to take out either Vader or the Emperor if they both could take on one of them alone, but those two weren't exactly some random people you could just walk up to. They were the most powerful people in the galaxy, with an entire army at their command. Jedi are powerful, but they are not invincible. Vader could feel Obi Wan approaching in ANH way before they met, so there is no real chance of getting the element of surprise either.
     
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  14. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 20, 2013
    Well, I think you guys are thinking of Luke as if he is their possession. When kids were trained by the Jedi, their parents were given a choice. They weren't just taken from them by Force. Luke and Leia had a right to have an early childhood and loving parents, and their respective parents had the right to say, "No, you can't take my kid." In Luke's case, it seems pretty clear that Owen was not going to let Luke go with Obi-Wan. He didn't even want Luke to meet up with Obi-Wan when Luke was 19. So, Obi-Wan may have approached Owen during the intervening years, but been blown off.

    Now, with Leia, it's not so easy to explain. Bail Organa was on the side of Jedi, he knew his daughter had Force-potential (I'm assuming he knows Anakin is the father), and he understood Jedi way of training the young. So, it would seem he be willing to let Leia be trained. Of course, his wife would have to sign off to it too, and she may have been against it.
     
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  15. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Interesting point about Luke's / Lars' willingness, ladnar. Prior approaches may contributed further to Owen's hostility towards Ben when he's mentioned.
     
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  16. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    They were probably desperate and hoped that Luke possessed the same level of power as his father.
     
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  17. Pensivia

    Pensivia Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 24, 2013
    Yes, Yoda's ESB lines "He is too old. Too old to begin the training" always bothered me wya before the PT even came out. It's almost like he's acting as if this whole idea of training Luke is just now being presented in that scene, which we know can't be the case (even just taking ANH and ESB as the only two parts of the story at that point).

    Although I guess there are also a couple of alternate ways to read it:

    1) Yoda is so disappointed with Luke's initial behavior/attitude on Dagobah (before he realizes who Yoda is) that he uses the "too old" reference as an excuse because he just doesn't think Luke has the right temperament

    or

    2) Saying "he's too old" to Obi right in front of Luke is just another way of "testing" him to see how he will react (like Yoda's interactions with Luke before he reveals his true identity)

    Edit:

    Alternative reading #3:

    Yoda is just having a grouchy "Get off of my lawn swamp, kid!" senior moment...
     
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  18. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 20, 2013
    No!!!! I'm now officially a SW nerd! I'm now capitalizing the word "Force" out of habit!
     
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  19. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Seems like Yoda has given up at this point. He's lived his life in solitude without any effect from the outside galaxy. Why step in and try to change things now.
     
  20. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Yoda reacting to Luke's impatience and disrespect upon his arrival on Dagobah is the explanation I like best, but it still feels a little forced to me. It still feels as though Yoda's been sent this guy relatively out of the blue, rather than after twenty years of on-going communication and consultation between he and Ben, and that they're thrashing out the argument about his appropriateness for training for the first time.
     
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  21. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008

    Was it established in the novels that Obi-Wan and Yoda had been in consistent communication during those two decades between the trilogies? Or that a ghost Obi-Wan made arrangements with Yoda to train Luke right before the events of TESB?
     
  22. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    I'm not sure about the novels but I always envisaged that that would've been the case. ROTS certainly suggests that there would be ongoing communication. In TESB, though, it just doesn't feel like that. It's as though the whole scheme's being sprung on Yoda somewhat. That's how I read it anyhoo...
     
  23. Normal_Nerds

    Normal_Nerds Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Aug 21, 2013
    I think that the obvious reason that Yoda and Obi-Wan didn't go after the Emperor and Vader again is that at that point it was quite possible that they were the last two living Jedi in the galaxy. If they went after the Sith and died, then who would be left to train the children of Skywalker or any future Jedi? Could they trust it to any other Jedi that may have survived? No, because due to their isolation they couldn't make contact with other Jedi to tell them who the Skywalker twins were and where to find them.
    It's a case of the long game versus short term gain (I suppose you could say, the Unified vs Living Force); do you risk the entire future of the Jedi teachings on the chance that you'll remove evil now?

    I suspect that at least Yoda, if not Ben, knew that it had to be Luke as only family could reach Vader at that point. Luke doesn't win at the end of RotJ because of his affinity for the Force - instead it's because of his affinity for the Force that he survives long enough to rekindle the good in Anakin Skywalker. Regarding Yoda's warning of 'you must complete your training', I think that was both providing a defence against being corrupted and giving Luke the skills to survive the conflict.
     
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  24. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000

    "The Dark Side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities that some consider to be unnatural".

    The dark side enabled Dooku to do impossible feats such as defeating 2 younger guys. As for Obi-wan, Lucas should've said that Obi-wan has been out of practice for 20 years which is why he performed the way he did in ANH.
     
  25. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    Are you sure that Palpatine and Anakin's defeat would have been certain? Palpatine took out three Jedi Masters before his duel with Master Windu. When Obi-Wan and Anakin first dueled with Count Dooku in AOTC, both were defeated. In their next duel with Dooku, Obi-Wan was easily defeated and it was up to Anakin to succeed.



    Or perhaps Dooku was simply a better lightsaber duellist than Obi-Wan.
     
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