CT Why did Obi Wan and Yoda depend on Luke to defeat the Sith?

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  1. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    To be fair, those rules were written before the canon hierarchy was established, so stating that the EU is canon and a correct answer (unless contradicted by a higher-level source) should be okay now.

    So let's get back on topic.

    I have stated that Qui-Gon reassured a panicking Obi-Wan that Luke would still be safe on Tatooine, due to the fact that Vader would never willingly return there. Remember, as far as Vader knew, the baby died with Padme, so he had no cause to wonder about where Luke could be hiding.

    You're thinking of "hiding" as "locked in a secure vault with armed guards 24/7." That's a horrible way to raise a child. Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to have as normal an upbringing as possible, because clearly the Jedi Order's methods of training Jedi from infancy had begun to fail. Giving like the solid foundation of love and family would be a great benefit when like finally became a Jedi. And ROTJ is where that gamble pays off. It wasn't a single fight that brought about the downfall of the Sith, it was Luke's love for his father, and his belief that there was still good in Anakin.
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 1, 2011
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    That and I'm not sure that the traditional Jedi method of raising children would have been all that feasible for Yoda and Obi-Wan. Do they have any experience in raising children? Because they certainly don't have the structure of the Temple surrounding them anymore. Add to that the fact that they are now high-profile fugitives and I imagine that Obi-Wan and Yoda would have had to lay very low for a number of years. Taking care of a baby on Tatooine (or, really, any isolated and technologically less advanced society) would be difficult on a good day -- throw into that being hunted by the full weight of the Imperial military and I can see why Yoda and Obi-Wan would have decided to keep their distance. At least until Luke and Leia were old enough to take care of themselves.
  3. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Luke's way of being raised seemed to work well since, ya know, the Empire was defeated at the end of the day.
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  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    star 9
    Except as I said, she was given weapons training and took a position that was important to her function in the Alliance. Regardless of her not being a Skywalker at the time, she was still more than capable and as I pointed out, there were two.

    If the Jedi could prove that Palpatine was a Sith Lord and in league with Count Dooku, the Senate wouldn't turn on them. That's why it was imperative that Mace arrest him. But afterwards, when it was Yoda and Obi-wan, it didn't matter. The Jedi had to go on the run and they two of them were the only ones left. Whatever happened, they would have to trust Bail, Padme, Mon Mothma and the other like minded senators to help them out.
  5. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    But neither Obi-wan or Yoda thought THATS how Luke would or could win that battle. They wanted him to kill Anakin, and when he refused Obi-wan basically gives up. Allt he dialog is about keeping Luke and Leia safe, not giving them a happy, normal childhood. Do we even know IF they had happy, normal childhoods? When we meet them at 20 Luke is angry that he can't go join the IMPERIAL Academy until the next season, and Leia is fighting in a Rebellion against the Empire. Bail sent Leia to the Senate, how is that keeping her away from the Sith? There is also nothing to indicate that Yoda and Obi-wan think the order failed.


    Infantes, its questionable at best. But 5-10 year old children to adulthood, absolutly they had experience doing that.

    Why would it be harder for old Ben to have a son then Owen and Beriu to suddenly have a child when she was never pregent? Same with Bail and his wife. I also never got the impression that Obi-wan and Yoda were constantly being hunted, on the contrary, they picked Tatoonie and Dogobah because they wouldn't be hunted there. Yoda clearly stayed in one place for 20 years, so no one was chasing him. And why would Obi-wan live next door to Luke if he was that worried about Stormtroopers showing up one day?
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  6. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Read the ROTS novelization. It clearly spells out why Obi-Wan and Yoda thought that the Jedi Order's methods had failed, and their reasoning for sending Luke and Leia where they did.
  7. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    I have. They were weak and not very good reasons, and the rest of the story doesn't really back up the ideas put forth. Its not the writers fault. Lucas orignally set Luke up that because its a very common Heroes Journey origin, and the Luke-Leia-Vader thing didn't come up until later, then when they did the PT they had to try to justify this set up that really doesn't make a TONE of sense.

    Now had they had Obi-wan and Yoda heading off to continue to fight or to search for more Jedi etc... that would make more sense.
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  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    star 9
    That's counter productive because ROTS showed that the Jedi couldn't beat the Sith. Four Jedi Masters went up against Darth Sidious and lost, three of whom were killed quickly and without effort. Yoda, the oldest, most experienced and one of the strongest in the Order couldn't do it either. Obi-wan had trouble with Vader and only succeeded because he made a mistake. Yoda tells Obi-wan that he cannot beat Sidious. That's why they could the children and hid them after they were born. They believed that the offspring of Anakin Skywalker could become powerful enough to match Darth Sidious and possibly defeat him. They'd be sending Jedi to the slaughter if they went out and trained twenty potential Jedi, because the two Sith Lords would tear right through them.
  9. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
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    I didn't say they should have re-opening a Jedi training school (though not a horrible idea, why not give Luke and Leia some back up.....) You don't think a couple Jedi masters would have been amazing rallying point for a Rebellion? They took the time to set the Jedi computer to warn any other Jedi still out there, why not try to find them? Strength in numbers. Maybe Obi-wan can't beat Vader, but Obi-wan + 3 other Jedi....... Plus what happens if Obi-wan and Yoda die in the following 20 years? If they found and other Jedi, then Luke and Leia would still have someone to teach them.

    And if two Jedi Masters couldn't defeat the Sith, it makes even LESS sense to send Luke and Leia (basically unprotected) off for 20 years before beginning to train them (never mind having Luke be in however many dog fights as a member of Rogue Squadron before going to Yoda and Leia going to the Senate with Palpatine), and then only training Luke, instead of training them together as children so they are powerful and capable enough to take on Vader and the Emperor.
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  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
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    1. Three Jedi die and Obi-wan barely survives.

    2. Fortunately, Qui-gon Jinn spent the time preparing Yoda and Obi-wan so that they could become one with the Force and retain their identity, thus allowing them to still help Luke and Leia. Obi-wan wouldn't die because he was 38 in ROTS and 58 by ROTS. He took care of himself and made sure that he lived as long as he did.

    3. Those other Jedi were almost all found by the Empire and killed.


    They weren't unprotected. The house of Organa kept watch over Leia. She was well protected and once she was old enough, was given weapons training. Hence she never misses a shot in the OT. She had a ship full of soldiers when Vader caught. As to Luke, he had Obi-wan looking out for him while on Tatooine. Anytime that Luke got into trouble, Obi-wan came to the rescue. Hence his being there when the Tuskens had knocked Luke out and before they could take him off to be tortured.

    As to fighting in the war, that was their purpose. Yoda waited three years from the Battle of Yavin 4 because he wasn't certain Luke was ready yet, which we saw when he came to Dagobah and failed Yoda's test. As to Leia, Luke was trained first because Yoda could only train one at a time, per the Jedi Code.
  11. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    1) OK, are we talking from a storytelling or in universe perspective? Storytelling, absolutly. In-universe......maybe, maybe not. Anakin/Vader isn't invinisible. Starkiller messed him up pretty good on his own, and Obi-wan was pretty much a match for him 1-on-1 so, add 3 more in there......

    2) But as far as we've seen, not teach him. If they could teach him as Force Ghosts why send him off to to face Vader and the Emperor before his training is finished? Why not finish it, why not have him send Leia over?

    3) They all were, not almost all. But if Obi-wan and Yoda went out to look for them and help them.........again, maybe it goes differently.

    Really? If Vader found out about Leia you think Bail is going to stop him? And how well protected was Leia, the first time we meet her she is being captured by the very person they were trying to protect her from. Obi-wan was there, but wasn't always there. What if Luke had been home when the Stromtroopers got there? Is Obi-wan doing nothing all day but watching Luke from a distance? And if thats ALL he is doing, why not raise him himself and teach him? Why risk that something will happen, that he'll join the IMPERIAL Academy, or you know, not want to go with Obi-wan and be a Jedi............And what time and again, we meet Luke when he is 20.

    So if Luke wasn't ready YET, he'd be dead and "oh well, I guess the Sith will rule for a while longer". And they were so worried about the code that they couldn't train more then 1 at a time, they wouldn't have trained Luke at all because he was WAY too old to start. He was basically at the age when Padawans become Knights when he STARTS training.

    As I've said before, Luke living with his Aunt and Uncle is a STORYTELLING element, and one that was created YEARS before the back story was written. Its very classic fairy tale and Heroes Journey stuff. But from In-Universe perspectives........what Obi-wan and Yoda do doesn't really make that much sense. And thats fine, the whole Death Star Battle really doesn't make that much sense, but its still very enjoyable. Same with this.
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Nov 6, 2013
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  12. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    If Obi-Wan and Yoda had raised Luke themselves, that would've been much too risky.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need … One thing remains - Vader. You must confront Vader."

    as well as:

    "Pass on what you have learned."

    implication- they expect Luke to train Leia, not them.
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  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    And Galen was still killed. Vader and the Stormtroopers took out multiple Jedi on Kashyyyk and Kessel.

    As noted, Luke's final test was his Jedi trial. He had to face the Sith in battle. Time was running out and the opportunity was presenting itself.

    They had priorities that superseded that. There was much to learn about the Force in order to prepare the children. Simply going back to fight wasn't going to cut it. They needed to wait until the time was right to move forward.

    Why would Vader find out? Padme was dead. The unborn child with it. Obi-wan and Bail made sure that there was nothing to implicate that they were on Polis Massa. Bail knew to bury his feelings deep down around Vader and Palpatine, and to guard his thoughts carefully.

    Right and she was later rescued.

    YODA: "This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. What he was doing."

    They were both keeping tabs on Luke. Both through the Force and in Obi-wan's case, visiting Luke when he was able to. That's why Luke knew him as Ben Kenobi and considered him a friend. If something happened, like the time Luke and Biggs had gotten lost, then he would come and help them get back home. But the rest of the time, it was important for them to live with families. To gain their morals and values from them. When it came to the Academy, Obi-wan would make sure that Luke didn't go. As to leaving, Obi-wan tempted him with tales of his father and the bond that they would share through it. Obi-wan trusted in the Force when Luke said no.

    They changed the Code with regards to age, but not when it came to training more than one at a time. That's the point. Over a thousand years ago, the Jedi had changed their requirements for training new Jedi. During the thousand years since then, the Sith had changed as well. They were employing new techniques for taking control of the galaxy. This adaptation gave them the advantage over the Jedi. Yoda realizes that they need to adapt and thus he begins to do it with Luke and Leia.
  15. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    [quote="darth-sinister, post: 51115389, member: 426497"

    And Galen was still killed. Vader and the Stormtroopers took out multiple Jedi on Kashyyyk and Kessel.


    As noted, Luke's final test was his Jedi trial. He had to face the Sith in battle. Time was running out and the opportunity was presenting itself.


    They had priorities that superseded that. There was much to learn about the Force in order to prepare the children. Simply going back to fight wasn't going to cut it. They needed to wait until the time was right to move forward.


    Why would Vader find out? Padme was dead. The unborn child with it. Obi-wan and Bail made sure that there was nothing to implicate that they were on Polis Massa. Bail knew to bury his feelings deep down around Vader and Palpatine, and to guard his thoughts carefully.

    YODA: "This one a long time have I watched. Never his mind on where he was. What he was doing."

    They were both keeping tabs on Luke. Both through the Force and in Obi-wan's case, visiting Luke when he was able to. That's why Luke knew him as Ben Kenobi and considered him a friend. If something happened, like the time Luke and Biggs had gotten lost, then he would come and help them get back home. But the rest of the time, it was important for them to live with families. To gain their morals and values from them. When it came to the Academy, Obi-wan would make sure that Luke didn't go. As to leaving, Obi-wan tempted him with tales of his father and the bond that they would share through it. Obi-wan trusted in the Force when Luke said no.

    They changed the Code with regards to age, but not when it came to training more than one at a time. That's the point. Over a thousand years ago, the Jedi had changed their requirements for training new Jedi. During the thousand years since then, the Sith had changed as well. They were employing new techniques for taking control of the galaxy. This adaptation gave them the advantage over the Jedi. Yoda realizes that they need to adapt and thus he begins to do it with Luke and Leia.[/quote]


    He was, but you through another opponent in there, and I doubt Vader could with-stand that assult.

    Who said the final test has to be THEN. If Obi-wan and Yoda could have continued training Luke as Force Ghosts they would have, clearly no one there really thought he was ready, but they had no choice. Hell, why did Obi-wan even bother sending Luke Yoda if he could have just trained him as a Force Ghost? The movies do kinda set up that, at least for the kind of training Luke is getting, he needed someone there with him, not just their spirits.

    So the Jedi can't multi task? How the hell dd Obi-wan protect Luke if ALL his time was devoted to his own learning?

    I'm sure we could come up with lots of ways Vader could find out. He obviously didn't, even when he was face to face with his daughter, but they took a pretty big risk with the future of the galaxy. No real reason to take that risk when they could have taken her themselves, kept her completely under the radar (instead of, you know, in the Imperial senate) and trained her.

    So if Luke had been there when the Stromtroopers killed his aunt and Uncle Yoda was going to stop it from the swamp he was in? How did Obi-wan make sure Luke didn't go to the Academy? Luke couldn't wait to go. Yoda and Obi-wan taught many Jedi their morals, no reason they couldn't do the same for Luke and Leia, neither of which were raised by their family. Both were raised by strangers, and in Lukes case, strangers neither Obi-wan or Yoda knew at all, they would have no idea the kind of morals they'd teach Luke. And if we're back to "Obi-wan trusted the force", well, I think thats a hole in the logic.

    First, we have no idea how, when or if the Jedi ever trained people differently. All we have are EU suggestions. Second, why make one change and not another? Kind of random.......

    Once again, all this stuff is great from a storytelling perspective, and makes a lot more sense if you only look at the OT and the story being told in the OT and the internal logic created in the OT. Its when the PT comes in that it starts to fall apart, from an in-universe logic stand point.
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  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Palpatine and Vader fought together against Galen. Vader had Stormtroopers with him on Kessel, where the Jedi conclave was meeting to rally a strike against the Empire.

    Luke was ready. He knew what he needed to know about the Force, in order to confront the Sith and resist the dark side. Luke stood his ground against Vader and was able to beat him in battle. Yoda knew that Luke was ready when he walked in to his hut. It had to be now, because they could sense the currents of the Force moving Luke towards this confrontation. Luke just didn't want to do it, but because he chose to go to Endor, he wound up realizing that he had no choice.

    OBI-WAN: "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed by how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    The same way that all the Jedi in the Temple received training not only in the ways of the Force, but in Lightsaber combat, piloting and basic education.

    Leia was brought into the Senate by Bail because he needed someone to help him, while the Alliance was growing. And again, why would Vader believe his child was alive? Padme died. The Jedi and Bail doctored the files and her body to look pregnant.
    No, Obi-wan would because he would have had a vision of Luke in trouble and be there to meet the Stormtroopers. Just as he made sure the Tusken Raiders never bothered the moisture farm.
    I didn't say that he did. I said that he would make sure that he didn't go, most likely by bringing him to his home and telling him about his father.
    Owen and Beru Lars were family to Luke, just like they were to Anakin and Shmi. They knew of the Lars because Anakin told Obi-wan and the Council why he was on Tatooine and meeting his new family. He just lied about what he did when his mother died. Anakin could tell that the Lars were good people and he said as much to the Jedi. And the Organas were not strangers to the Jedi. He had worked with the Council during the war and had rescued Obi-wan and Yoda, during the Purge.
    Why? All Jedi are trained to trust the Force. Luke trusted the Force to help him destroy the Death Star. Obi-wan trusted the Force to help him find Anakin.

    One change was done because circumstances warranted it. As I pointed out from Lucas himself, change is important. If you don't change, you become stagnant and face dire consequences. The second wasn't done because in training Jedi, it requires more one on one work than multiple Padawans. It causes friction and tension. It fosters jealousy and resentment. That's why Qui-gon was not allowed to train Anakin at the same time as he would continue training Obi-wan.
  17. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    That doesn't help your case that Obi-wan + a few more Jedi couldn't beat Vader.

    But Luke didn't beat him in battle until he basically gave into the Darkside after Vader threatened Leia. When he leaves they tell him he isn't finished training, then tell him he doesn't require any more once they can't give it to him.

    So then why have Obi-wan be the one to watch over Luke and be the one to train him in the first place?

    If Vader would never suspect Luke or Leia were children, why would they have to be hidden at all?

    You mean just like how Obi-wan got there before the Tuskins beat up Luke? Why let Luke take the beating, who knows if they would have killed him at that point.

    And when he did that Luke didn't want to go with Obi-wan. Had the Imperials not been involved, that probably wouldn't have changed Lukes mind.

    Owen was Shmi's step son, Anakins step brother, who he hardly knew at all. So a step uncle with basically zero connection to Lukes father is family? More so then Obi-wan, who spend almost every day with Anakin, year in and year out, basiclly raising him from the age of 10 on? And Bail and his wife weren't anymore family to Leia then Obi-wan or Yoda.

    The Flaw is that "trusting in the force" is being used as a catch all to explain away the holes in the story. We aren't shown that the Jedi are inactive people, who don't plan, who don't look a head, who don't take action etc... and just "trust in the force".

    You don't think Yoda being the only Jedi Master left, and getting old, maybe close to dying, didn't create circumstances that would warrent changing the only train 1 at a time rules?
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  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    If Vader could take out several Jedi and survive Galen, then Obi-wan and a few Jedi wouldn't matter.

    Luke is told that there is no more training that he needs. He knows what he needs to in order to face Vader and Sidious and that only through beating them, will he truly become a Jedi. Luke doesn't understand yet what this means. He only focuses on the fact that he cannot bring himself to kill his own father. He has no problem going to Endor and helping to blow up the Emperor, but that's because he doesn't know that his father is already there. When Luke faces his father, it is with the intention that he will not fight and kill his father. But when he does fight his father, he beats him down and only becomes a Jedi by granting his father a mercy. By not giving into his rage and hatred.

    LUKE: "You failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."

    Now, he understands what Yoda was saying to him.

    Leia was living on Alderaan, which Obi-wan had been to and knows that they have the means to protect her. Luke will live on Tatooine, which he has been to as well. He knows about the Tusken Raiders, the Kryat Dragons and Jabba's enterprises. He starts Luke's training because right now, Leia is captured and he doesn't have the time to go to Dagobah. He needs help because of his age and diminishing abilities, per his own words. He had intended to deliver the plans and see what was what. When the time was right, they would go to Dagobah. If they had both children together as adults, if Vader hadn't taken her, then they could work together and Yoda could help him in making sure that he did right by Luke. They could work more closely together, than he had with Anakin.

    At the time, the Jedi were still wanted by the Empire for treason. Padme was dead. They needed to make sure that the Sith didn't suspect anything. So they went into hiding. As time went on, it became more evident the Sith bought into their ruse.

    He's on foot. He doesn't have a speeder, nor an animal transport. He got there as quickly as he could.

    That was always a possibility. He cannot force him to go, just as Qui-gon couldn't force Anakin to leave years ago. It had to be their choice, made freely. That is why he tells Luke that he must do what he feels is right.

    Anakin didn't know the Lars, but his mother did. Shmi Skywalker was that connection. She lived with them for five years and was married to Cliegg. Anakin could tell how devastated he was over his inability to rescue his wife. He trusted his mother's judgment and found it was correct, by his own admission.

    ANAKIN: "You are going to have to stay here. These are good people, Padme. You'll be safe."

    Obi-wan and Yoda trusted his judgment.

    And look how that turned out, by his own admission.

    OBI-WAN: "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    That's an insult to people who adopt children and to families where divorce and re-marriage to another person is involved. My step father was more of a father to me and my siblings, than my own father, who couldn't make the time and effort to come see his kids, over a five year period. Much less help pay for his oldest son's funeral.

    Obi-wan, Yoda and Bail made a plan. Fake the death of the children and hide them from the Empire. When the time was right, train them in the ways of the Force to take on the Sith.


    Nope. Not when there was a danger in having one turn, because of jealous and resentment.
  19. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    And if he couldn't Obi-wan and co. would have rid the Galaxy of him. Isn't that something a guardian of peace and justice would try? And even if they didn't take on Vader personally, you don't think 2 Jedi Masters (never mind any others they found) would have been a big boost to the Rebels fighting the Empire?

    So Luke understands that he isn't a fully trained Jedi in the moment?


    As i said, if Vader found out about Leia, you think a peaceful planet with no weapons is going to stop him from getting her? And you're saying it would have been better if they had both twins together and Obi-wan and Yoda could have taught them together............

    What reason did the Sith have to suspect anything when they were hidden?

    So he WOULD have gotten then fast if the Stromtroopers attacked when Luke was home?

    Well tha twould have sucked if Luke joined the Imperial Academy. I wonder if living with obi-wan and yoda and training from birthday would have helped avoid that possibility...

    They trusted the judgement of a Sith Lord to tried to kill his own pregnent wife, and slaughtered both Jedi and Tuskin children?

    No its not. YOu said Obi-wan and Yoda wanted Luke and Leia raised by family. Bail was no more family to Leia to Obi-wan and Yoda could have been.

    Andt he plan makes sense, and exists only because part 4 was already made. If the movies were made in order (1-6) either ANH would be much different, or the "plan" would hav ebeen much different.

    So lets risk not having a single Jedi because one might be jealous the other better?
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  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    They failed. They both understood that they were part of the problem and not the solution. The children might be that solution. Hence they went into exile for the sake of the children and the future. The presence of the Jedi before then would only serve to paint a larger target on the Alliance as up until the last couple of years before the Battle of Yavin 4, the Empire wasn't taking it seriously. The Alliance really didn't come into existence til at least two years before that point.

    When Luke comes to see Yoda, he thinks that he needs more training. When Yoda says that he has enough, he says that he is a Jedi then. To which Yoda corrects him. When Luke chooses to spare his father and show him mercy, rather than kill him, he has understood that this was his final test. Hence he tells Palpatine that he is a Jedi. He has the basic skills necessary. He is capable of the same things that his father and his Masters were capable of. He may not have their experience yet, but he has everything else to be a Jedi. The only thing he doesn't know of is the lightning and how to block it without a Lightsaber.


    Luke managed to do well for four years, without getting captured. He only turned himself in at the end. As to the second part, the Jedi would have probably preferred to have them together, but fate didn't work out that way.

    Nothing and so long as they continued to make sure that there was no reason to question Padme's death, the children would continue to be safe.

    He would have done the best that he could.

    Not really. Luke didn't want to join the Empire. He just wanted to be a certified pilot, with all the knowledge and skills afforded to him. And this even assumes that had the Stormtroopers not come, that the next year, Owen would let him submit his application.

    He wasn't a Sith Lord when he and Padme went to Tatooine three years ago. He was a Jedi Padawan Learner.

    Bail and Breha were looking to start a family and Leia was left with them, as they were friends and allies of the Jedi. Luke was sent to his family on Tatooine.

    No, it would make sense regardless. When Lucas first created this story, there were no prequel plans. There was one screenplay called "The Star Wars", where events had already happened in the past and the present day had the Jedi in hiding. By the second draft, Lucas tweaked the idea but there was still no prequel plans. Lucas crafted a backstory around which he had Luke and his siblings hiding on Utapau while waiting for the day he was to join his father and older brother in the war. The essence of all that is still the same even with the PT.

    Jealousy is of the dark side of the Force.
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    "Attachment leads to jealousy. The shadow of greed, that is."
  22. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
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    Obi-wan didn't fail, he beat Anakin. And even if Yoda didn't beat Palpatine that means he can do ANYTHING to fight against Evil? So Jedi - quitiers?

    Yoda is just trying to give confidence. Luke left and Yoda is telling him he doesn't know enough. But his chance to teach Luke is gone, whats the point in telling him he isn't good enough? And Yoda doesn't tell him that he has to share him or show mercy, on the contrary, Yoda and Obi-wan seem to want Vader killed.

    Luke was part of the Alliance and on the movie constantly. Leia didn't live her whole life like that. And what fate? The Jedi are the ones who split them up. You're basically agreeing with me here that what they do doesn't make any sense. They' rather have kept them together......then they should have kept them together.

    Exactly, the Sith have no reason to suspect Luke and Leia are Anakin's children, so there is no reason to split them and put them into hiding.

    The best he could, which (if his reaction to the Tuskin attack is an indication) would be just good enough to find Lukes dead body. So because they wanted to hide the twins from people who didn't know they even existed they potentially put them in danger by not being there to protect them if they needed it. Wow, thats the most logical thing I've every heard.

    We don' tknow that. We also don't know wht would change for Luke at the Academy.

    So they trusted the judgement of a teenager who disobeyed orders, put the woman he loved AND was susposed to protect in danger (not to mention also got her killed when he used her bait), slaughtered a dozen tuskins etc....

    Obi-wan was like a father and brother to Anakin. Yoda was his mentor. There is NOTHING that make Bail and Breha more family to Leia then them, if anything Obi-wan is the closest thing to family that Luke and Leia had, followed by Padme's family on Naboo. If "wanting them to be raised by family" was a factor, Bail and the Lars wouldn't have been #1 and #2 o the list. And no, some of the choices in the PT don't make sense because the OT was created as the starting point, even as Episode IV (which onl yhappened when Empire came out), it was the starting point of the story, and it makes perfect sense for Luke to be with his Uncle and Leia to be where she is when you don't know the backstory and its a great place to start telling a story. But when you start filling that backstory in........Lucas didn't fill the logic gaps very well. And if you now watch them 1-6, not everything makes sense because of the way the story was written and told.

    And choosing to train Luke and not train Leia at all has zero potential for jealously. Or sending Luke to farm dirt while Leia is a princess.
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  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Obi-wan did fail. He didn't kill Anakin and he didn't try harder to help him. Yoda failed to defeat Palpatine and more importantly, he failed to prepare the Jedi for a possible return of the Sith. When the children were born, Yoda and Obi-wan both agreed that they needed to hide. And as Obi-wan tells Luke years later, his destiny is different from Luke's.

    OBI-WAN: "Your destiny lies along a different path than mine."

    Fighting now would yield them nothing but defeat. It's why other attempts from the survivors failed. They couldn't defeat the Sith and the might of the Empire.

    No, he's not giving Luke confidence. He is telling him that he has what he needs. He understands the Force now. He understands the temptation of the dark side. He has developed patience and matured over the last year. Now all that's left is to face the Sith. As to what the Jedi believe is not the same as what Luke believes. That is why Luke realizes what his test is in becoming a Jedi, which is to not turn to the dark side because of threats to his loved ones. He must be willing to let all of that go and in doing so, he becomes a Jedi. Anakin made a mistake in killing Dooku and because Luke did not repeat that mistake with Vader, he was able to save himself and his father.

    It's not like she couldn't do that either.

    No, they kept them apart for safety reasons until they were old enough to come to them, rather than seeking them out. Leia was coming to pick up Obi-wan to take him to Alderaan. Luke would have been picked up as well, by Obi-wan's request. But fate had a different plan. Leia was captured by Vader and only Luke got to be trained.

    When the decision is made, they are hoping that the Sith won't see through the ruse and start looking for the children. Likewise, starting the training too soon would attract attention. On top of which they decided to let the Organas and the Lars raise the children. Remember, Darth Bane didn't automatically go out to fight the Jedi Order. They went into hiding and spent their rest of their lives and the lives of their successors hiding, changing and adapting so that when the time came, Darth Sidious executed the plan to take out the Jedi Order and take control of the Republic.

    Luke wasn't dead when the Tuskens got to him. He was alive and Obi-wan chose not to kill the Tuskens in order to save him. With the Stormtroopers, the situation would be different.

    There's danger everywhere in the galaxy. The Tantive IV could have a massive engine failure, causing the ship to blow up. Luke could have gotten killed bullseyeing Womprats. The Empire could have found them before the children were ready to become Jedi.

    Yes, we do. Luke says to Obi-wan that he doesn't like the Empire. He had no plans to become an actual Imperial. And as Owen kept demonstrating, Luke's chances of getting into the Academy were becoming slimmer and slimmer.

    They didn't know about the Tusken Raiders. But yes, they trusted Anakin's judgment. Just as they trusted Qui-gon's judgment to let Obi-wan train Anakin.

    The Naberries on Naboo were not safe. Anakin and Palpatine know Padme's family well and would be suspicious of two children showing up. The Lars are as much family as the Naberries, because Shmi Skywalker lived with them for five years. She was married to Cliegg. That makes them family. You obviously have never had step parents, because if you had, you would understand. If my mother had died instead of my step father, he would have finished raising the three of us with help from my grandmother and my aunt. We wouldn't have gone with my father, nor my uncle or my other aunt.

    As to the Organas, they were trusted friends of the Jedi Order. They served the Senate and what's more, Obi-wan had helped defend Alderaan during the war. That made them ideal adopted parents. All couples that adopt are screened and investigated to determine if they are suitable to raise a child that has been put up for adoption.

    The logic does fit, you just have trouble understanding. Lucas's backstory always had the Jedi go into hiding, that hadn't been killed outright. Many of those were subsequently killed by the Empire and the Sith. And Lucas had always had the lead character be raised in secret from the Empire, for his protection until the time was right. You just start playing what if.

    They're not competing with each other. If Leia had proved to be more adept at mastering the Force than Luke, that would breed jealousy on his part and anger. And vice versa.

    What does that have to do with anything? Besides, Luke was farming water. Not dirt.
  24. CommanderDrenn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2013
    star 4
    Their time was past; they were too old to do any real fighting, they had to depend on Luke to do it with them as the roles of teachers.
  25. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    Obi-wan beat Anakin, thought he killed, him left him for dead. He'd proved he could beat him in a fight. You give him some help...... His mistake was not finishing Anakin off. And sure they agreed they had to hide, but that decision makes no real sense, which is the problem. And what other attempts? And even if Obi-wan and Yoda couldn't defeat Palpatine together, or with the help of other Jedi (because as Ipointed out, they already proved they could be Vader), there are other ways they can fight and help.

    Great, none of that mean Luke knows all there is know to be a Jedi and wouldn't have benefited from more training had Yoda not died.

    She obviously did later one, but not when she was 10. If vader had found out about her when she was a child, Bail and the peaceful world of Alderaan with no weapons wouldn't have stopped him from getting her. Not very good protection.

    BUT WHAT SAFETY REASONS. There are none. And there is NO reason why they can't go and starting training right away. Thats the point, Obi-wan and Yoda make illogical, unfounded decisions to support the orignal starting point of the story

    How is Leia being with a Senator and going to the Imperial Captial safer then hiding with Yoda? Same with Luke on Tatooine, espically since the Sith have NO REASON to look for them? And where did this "their training would attract the Sith's attention" come from? There is NOTHING to support that claim. Its not like Vader or Palpatine felt it when Obi-wan was training Luke ont he Falcon. Its makes zero sense for the two Jedi to go into hiding, and put the children in greater danger rather then start their training when they are children. Even if they want them split up, Obi-wan takes one, Yoda the other.

    But you said Obi-wan got there as quickly as he could. If he can't respond to danger fast enough.......

    All the more reason for Obi-wan and Yoda to train them much earlier then they ended up doing.

    But Padme's family were their family. SO sending them to live with the Lars and Bail and his family wasn't about them growing up with family. I get that step family can be just as close and important as blood family, but Anakin didn't know his step family. Obi-wan would have been the closest thing to family Luke and Leia had, besides Padme's family, at that point. He was MUCH loser to Anakin (he loved him, did Owen and Beru, or Bail?). So the move wasn't about them being raised by family, it was about protection and secrecy, which doesn't make any sense since the Sith don't know about them and Obi-wan and Yoda can protect them much better then a farmer and the ruler of a planet with no weapons. On top of that, there is no reason not start their training when they are children.

    But Luke being trained and Leia being ignored has no potential to create jealously? Or one being royality and the other a peon? You're REALLY reaching here.
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