CT Why did Obi Wan and Yoda depend on Luke to defeat the Sith?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 24, 2013.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    And if he had, the Force would never be balanced. Anakin was the only one who could stop the Sith. Though he lost faith in it, Obi-wan knew he had a purpose greater than fighting Anakin again.

    That's where Luke and Leia come in. They would be the ones to succeed where they failed. They took a page out of the Sith playbook by hiding and waiting for the time to be right.

    Actually, Luke does know what it means. He has knowledge of the Force. He knows that the Jedi protected the civilian populace for a thousand generations. That they were diplomats. Anything else he can make up on his own, just as the first Jedi did twenty five thousand years ago.

    Fortunately, she wasn't found out until shortly before his death. So it doesn't matter.

    They are logical reasons. They went into hiding. They failed. Now they must wait, train and prepare themselves to train the next generation. The same way Darth Bane went into hiding and had the Sith remain in hiding for a thousand years.

    Bail realized it was safe by the time she began working with him as a Senator. By that point, they were able to do what they did and Vader and Sidious had no clue as to who she was. And as I said, she needed to be raised as a normal person and not as a Jedi. Same with Luke. This was adapting from the previous methods of training, which made them both stronger people in the end.

    Sidious and Vader both felt a disturbance in the Force when Luke arrived on Dagobah. Vader himself became obsessed with finding Luke once he felt him use the Force at Yavin 4, and did everything he could to capture the boy and turn him. The Jedi themselves were hiding as well, because they were fugitives from the Empire. Yoda's body wasn't found in the Senate building and Obi-wan was seen walking away from Anakin on Mustafar. They, like most of the surviving Jedi, went into hiding. The few that made it past then, never returned to being Jedi.

    It doesn't matter because Luke wasn't at the farm.

    But Shmi did know the Lars. She fell in love with Cliegg and married him, after he freed her. Owen and Beru welcomed her with open arms. They were a family. And Anakin trusted them because they took care of her for five years and they took care of Padme while he was gone overnight. Ergo, the Lars were family.

    Being close to one family over the other isn't a requirement. You just don't get and you never will, because you don't know what it is like to walk a mile in those shoes. You really don't. Protection was only part of it. Family upbringing was the key. Love was the answer to the darkness. Unconditional love that came from Owen and Beru who taught it to Luke and in turn, he used it to save his father.

    No, because as Leia says to Luke, she doesn't understand the Force because she was unaware of her potential. She admired Luke in that he was doing what his father and his mentor had done years before. Now that the Sith were gone, Luke could teach her the ways of the Force and she would be his student without anger and resentment towards him.


    Why would that matter? Luke was never jealous of Leia's upbringing as a princess on Alderaan. He already knew she was adopted before learning about why she was. They had become good friends because she didn't act like a spoiled princess and she didn't look down upon him. They fought for a common cause which united them.
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  2. Michael McKean Jedi Knight

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    Jun 5, 2013
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    When he hit the ground of the Senate chamber, there was no chance for him. He'd have to make the treacherous climb up the chamber again with the Emperor on the high ground, and plus clone troopers (or stormtroopers, should I say) might soon have been arriving.
  3. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Obi-wan and Yoda didn't think Anakin HAD to be the one to balance the force, they wanted Luke to kill him. And if you're going to "Obi-wan knew he had more important things to do".......you've lost this one. There is no reason why Obi-wan and Yoda wouldn't have continued fighting, tried to find other Jedi, joined and helped the Rebels etc... Other then the storytelling reasons. They also could have raised Luke and Leia WHILE helping the alliance and the Rebels and other Jedi.

    Sure LUke can make up his own rules, but you can't argue he learned ina few weeks what Jedi took 20+ years to learn.

    But it does matter to this discussion because it was a risk the characters took, and it makes no logical sense for them to take the risk. Just like there is no logical reason for them to wait before they start training Luke and Leia, none. None exists and none is given. And neither Luke or Leia grow up like "regular people".

    WHo says they sensed Luke training? They didn't HAVE To go into hiding, and they certainly did have to without Luke and Leia.

    And Obi-wan was lucky he wasn't.

    Obi-wan was more family then Lars. MUCH more of a connection and actual LOVE between the two, not just some shaky trust based on an afternoon meeting.

    And LUke saved his father.....something OBi-wan and Yoda DIDN'T want him to do. They wanted him to kill him. So why send him there (and they had no idea what kind of parents they'd be since they didn't know them) to learn something they didn't want him to learn? Obi-wan was basically in a position to be Lukes uncle. Th ere is NO REASON he couldn't have raised Luke. None. And it makes much more logical sense for him to do it.

    Right, and if Luke was stronger then Leia it would be IMPOSSIBLE for her to be happy for her brother an dunderstand that some peoplea re just better at some things right? And you're right, LUke wasn't, so what evidence is there to make a claim that he'd be jealous of her for being stronger int he Force? ZERO.
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  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I know that they didn't believe in Anakin, that's my point. Luke still believed in his father and despite his mission being given to him by them, Luke goes against their wishes and does things his way. But Obi-wan, though he didn't know that was going to happen, he did know that it was not his place to fight Vader again. He knew that his destiny was to take him on a different path from that. Just as Yoda knew as well. That's why they went into hiding and chose to wait and let the Force guide things.

    Luke did spend a few weeks or a few months, learning the Jedi Arts. Then he spent a year preparing to rescue Han, but continuing to train on his own until he was strong enough to rescue his friend. The reason it took longer in the old days, was that the Jedi were covering the basic education and other aspects on top of Force training. That took thirteen years. Then another dozen years or so is spent on learning how to use the Force in the field as a Jedi, while continuing to prepare for the trials. Luke had the skills necessary. No, he couldn't fight like his father and Obi-wan used to, but he was still capable of fighting Vader regardless of that. He was still capable of taking out multiple members of Jabba's guards during the rescue. Like his father, he went up against a beast without a Lightsaber and survived. He was ready enough.

    I've told you, they're letting the Force guide them. They're in hiding and are waiting for the day when the children will come to them and for a signal that it is time to begin.

    Sidious did when he contacted Vader and told him that Luke must not become a Jedi. He knows that this disturbance means only one thing and that is Luke is training to become a Jedi.


    They did have to go into hiding. They were wanted fugitives. Obi-wan and Yoda. They had to hide and they had to hide the children, in case the Sith saw through their ruse.

    Nothing happens by chance and he doesn't believe in luck.

    Shaky trust? Anakin trusted the Lars because he could sense that they were trust worthy. A Jedi can tell these things. What's more, Anakin trusted his mother who lived with them for five years. A trust level isn't important. Anakin could trust them and the Council still trusted Anakin.

    Right, but they believed that Luke and Leia having been raised by a family would be the solution. They didn't know what would happen on the Death Star, but they did know that by changing their rules just a little, would make a difference with Luke and Leia, where ten thousand Jedi failed before them.


    It's not stronger in the Force. They're both equal in power. The jealously would come because one is capable of learning much more quickly than the other. Luke's strikes against him was his inability to believe in the impossible. But say Leia believes in it. Well, that means she lifts up the X-Wing instead of Luke, which causes Luke to harbor resentment because he believes that he should be able to do so as well, since they're twins. If she could do it, why can't I? What makes her more special than me? That's why the Code forbade two Padawans to one Master/Knight.
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  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    I believe eventually the figure given for the time between the end of ESB and the start of RoTJ was 8 months. The RoTJ novel said "6 of this desert planet's months" was how long Han was in carbonite- but Tatooine months may be slightly longer.
  6. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Yeah, but the official timeline is one year.
  7. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    star 6
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 15, 2013
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Usually when one says that a year has passed, it is generally considered a whole year unless specified otherwise.
  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    And which source explicitly states that "a year has passed" between ESB and RoTJ, considering we have several sources stating less time has passed than that?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Nov 17, 2013
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Nothing says a whole year has passed, though. It is 2013 now. In less than two months it will be 2014. That doesn't mean that a whole year will go by between now and January.
  11. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4

    You've now.........resorted to "Obi-wan knew it was his destiny not to do X", which mean sI have no interst in talking about this with you anymore. Basically it means you can't defend the actions he took because they do make no logical sense but refuse to admit it and are clinging to the idea that it makes sense "just because". You have yet to present a single convincing idea as to why their actions make any logic sense.
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  12. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    I have defended the actions of the characters. You just don't want to accept it. In ANH, Obi-wan clearly says that he and Luke have different destinies and going back to ROTS, Yoda says that they must hide and wait until the time is right to return. The time was not right now. The time was later and that is why they wait. Yoda says that he failed and it is his failure as the one who trained the Jedi, the lead them to this moment. Going out and fighting would yield them nothing. It's called making a plan.
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  13. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    A plan which makes no logical sense and can only be supported by vague, non-sensical statements like "its not my destiny" or "the time isn't right".
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  14. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    "Star Wars" is about destiny and timing and has been since at least the second draft. The fact that you take issue with it now and not before, is all on you. If you don't believe in fate and destiny, more power to you. But that's not what "Star Wars" is about.
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  15. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
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    That said, Vader was wrong about it being Luke's destiny to "come with me" in ESB.

    He was right, in a sense, about it being Luke's destiny to destroy the Emperor though. Luke did. By being the catalyst for Vader's redemption, and Vader's attack on the Emperor at exactly the right moment.
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Technically, Luke did go with his father to see Palpatine. It was what happened next that was unclear to both Sith Lords.
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  17. TaradosGon SWTV Mod - Like Palpatine with animals

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    I don't know that it necessarily follows that had anyone else killed Palpatine and Vader that the Force would never be balanced.

    Hasn't Lucas mentioned that in his view of destiny and the Force that a person could choose to follow it or reject it?

    It was Anakin's destiny to destroy the Sith, but for a long time he turned his back on his destiny and helped the Sith instead.

    It may not have been Obi-Wan's destiny to destroy the Sith, but could he not choose to take up that cause if he wanted to?

    Like I'm not expecting some Final Destination misfortune to befall any that try to destroy the Sith that are not Anakin. Had Anakin not interfered and allowed Mace to strike at Palpatine, I figure Palpatine would be dead and the Sith destroyed and the Force would return to balance. Mace would have done it, even though it wasn't his destiny. It's not like he'd slip on the wet window sill and fall out the broken window to his death because he mustn't be allowed to kill Palpatine, since it's not his destiny... Or would he? [face_thinking]
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  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

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    Yes.

    Always in motion is the future.
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  19. Skelter Jedi Master

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    That's one hell of a point.
  20. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Except Characters do not know their destinies or fate. There is no way Obi-wan or Yoda could or would have KNOWN that Luke and/or Leia would be able to use the force, want to be Jedi, they'd be alive to train them in 20 years, be able to fight Vader, be able to win etc.... Taking basically zero proactive actions to make sure they get the end result they want makes zero logical sense.

    So even the Jedi, who can look into the future can't be certain what their destiny or fate will be. Mace couldn't have foreseen Anakin turning when he did (or he probably would have had him arrested or something) because Anakin didn't make that choice until he made it.
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  21. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    When Palpatine first reveals himself to Anakin, that was a moment in which the time had come. Anakin had a choice to make, fight the Dark Lord or listen to him and consider what he has to say. That was his first opportunity to face his destiny and he walked away. The next time was when he arrives and finds the two warriors deadlocked. Anakin had a choice to make then; interfere and let Palpatine live longer, or stand aside and let Mace do his job. He choose to interfere but did it at the expense of Mace's life, which is why Palpatine smiled as he knew that he had the boy.

    Obi-wan fought Anakin and left him for dead. He had failed to kill him and because of all that had transpired, Obi-wan and Yoda both walked away to live another day. They believed that the children could be sufficient where they had failed. They realized that they were not the right ones to deal with the Sith.

    1. In TPM, Qui-gon suspected that Anakin's father had to been someone who was strong in the Force to begin with. In ROTJ, Luke says that the Force runs strong in his family. Ergo, the Midichlorian count is passed on to their offspring. Lucas even said that Vader and Sidious both believed that Luke could be as strong as Vader was going to be before his injuries and that both children had the same potential, thus they were equal.

    2. Midichlorian tests would determine their abilities.

    3. Obi-wan tried to sweeten the pot by telling Luke about his father, on more than one occasion and finally offered up the Lightsaber with most of the truth. Bail had told Leia about Obi-wan and what the Jedi had once represented before the purge.

    4. Sidious tells Anakin that if they do not eliminate all Jedi, then they will be a threat to them. He reminds him of this in TESB when he contacts Vader about the disturbance he felt. Obi-wan and Yoda both say that a fully trained Jedi can stop the Sith and bring an end to everything. Vader even says to Luke that he can destroy Palpatine.

    So both sides knew the potential was there. What none of them knew was that Vader was going to turn away from the dark side and save his son, which in turn would allow him to fulfill his destiny. That's why up until Luke confronts the Sith, the Jedi have faith to go on.
  22. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    But if Obi-wan had beaten Anakin, hadn't he proved he could have been the one to deal with the Sith, he just had to go back and finish the job? And they then acted illogically and sent them off to live with strangers and didn't bother to train them, or help at all with the people who started to fight against the Empire.

    1) Great, still no way of KNOWING for 100% certain. If you have Red hair and your wife has Red hair, its a good bet your children will do, but its 100%.
    2) We never see them give them the tests.
    3) And Luke still walked away.
    4) So what? What if Luke and Leia grow up and believe in non-violence? The very idea of picking up a lightsaber repulses them?

    So they KNEW that Luke and Leia would be just fine and safe and ready to train at 20 years old and both Obi-wan and Yoda would be alive and safe and ready to teach. They knew LUke and Leia absolutly couldn't be trained together without one becoming jealous and angry. They KNEW Bail and the lar's would keep the children safe and raise them well. But the Force didn't once whisper to either one that Anakin would, or could, return to the Light Side?

    Then Obi-wan and Yoda just take illogical actions to make sure that what they want to happen happens. The ending of RotS just doesn' tmake a lot of in-universe sense. Lucas had to end RotS in a way that set up ANH and he didn't do all that well.
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  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    He didn't prove anything other than he could not kill his best friend. That's why he left him to burn. When he finds out that he is alive and still deadly, he knows that it isn't his place to fight him. He cannot beat both of them, much less the Empire itself. That is why he follows through on the plan.

    They sent them off with friends (The Organas) and family (The Lars). They leave them be for their safety and to let the Force bring the children to them. The Alliance can make do until they are needed, which is why Bail tells Leia to bring Obi-wan to Alderaan, because now they need his help.

    Its a start. That's why Qui-gon moved onto the tests.

    Irrelevant.

    For about five minutes and then he says that he wants to become a Jedi.

    Irrelevant.

    No, they put faith in the twins ability to carry on where they failed. To redeem them all. They created a plan and put their faith behind it. They just didn't believe that it was possible for Anakin to make the choice to turn away. No Jedi had ever done that. Luke succeeds because he believed in his father, while Yoda and Obi-wan didn't.

    The logic was still the same in 2003 as it was in 1975. Even with the changes that Lucas added later on, it was still the same. All of the key elements were there in the OT script drafts.

    1. Vader betrayed Obi-wan and they fought resulting in Vader's injuries.

    2. Obi-wan chose to take the children and their mother and hide, rather than confront the Emperor and Vader.

    3. Both Jedi put their faith in the Skywalkers to save them.

    4. Both Skywalkers would be raised by others.

    5. Obi-wan waited for Luke to come to him to be trained.
  24. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Except its not a logical conclusion for Obi-wan to come too. And "he just knew it wasn't his place to beat him" is nothing argument with no weight behind it. Sorry.

    We don't know how well they knew Bail, and we do know that neither Obi-wan or Yoda knew the Lars, an that OBi-wan was more family to Anakin then the Lars. They the put the children in danger and risked never being able to teach. I've been saying this since we started this and you have to yet to come up any kind of argument to the contrary.

    LUke walks away until he sees his aunt and uncle dead. If the Stromtroopers hadn't done that....... And I think it would be a problem if Luke refused to fight or kill anyone period.....

    Yes, the plan just makes no logical, in-universe sense. YOu just keep repeating what they did, but you can't explain why it was logically, which tells me you can't, which means it wasn't logical. And you keep saying how the Force guides people and tells them what to do etc... Wouldn't it tell Obi-wan or Yoda when they were calm to redeem Anakin?

    1-5 - Sure, but Lucas didn't provide a logical reason for any of that happen. The characters just made those decisions because they made the decisions.
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  25. I Are The Internets Chosen One

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    How many times was Luke around Ob-Wan prior to their meeting in ANH?
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