CT Why did Obi Wan and Yoda depend on Luke to defeat the Sith?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Klingon Padawan, Mar 24, 2013.

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  1. TaradosGon Manager Emeritus

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    Feb 28, 2003
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    My point was that Mace could have killed Palpatine. Palpatine did not have an apprentice at that time, Dooku was dead and Anakin had not yet turned. Had Mace been allowed to strike Palpatine down, the Sith would have been destroyed.

    The prophecy seemed to indicate that it was Anakin's destiny to destroy the Sith, but he already faced his destiny and walked away by that point (as you point out). It may not have been Mace's destiny to destroy the Sith, but he could have done it anyway had Anakin not interfered. And I can't imagine that had Anakin just stood there and did nothing that he would have fulfilled the prophecy since he actually wouldn't be destroying the Sith, merely allowing the Sith to be destroyed by someone else.

    Obi-Wan I think thought that Anakin was as good as dead. And in the case of Yoda, Palpatine had the high ground and reinforcements were likely on the way (Mas Amedda slipped out right before the fight). The odds were stacked against Yoda and after Yoda so casually walked in after Order 66 and attacked Palpatine in his own office, I don't think Palpatine was going to suffer that same mistake again.

    I don't think they had much of an option but to retreat.

    Anakin had the potential to become stronger than either Yoda or Palpatine (admitted by Palpatine himself). So Yoda and Obi-Wan were probably relying on Luke being trained into a Jedi that could achieve a similar potential and completely overpower Palpatine. Palpatine in ESB even fears what could happen if Luke becomes a Jedi, and Yoda says that it is unfortunate that Luke found out the truth regarding Vader so early in his training. They hoped that by the time Luke found that out that he would have had the proper emotional training to deal with it and still do what must be done.

    And really, had things gone according to Obi-Wan and Yoda's plan, I don't see why that could not have worked. Palpatine seemed to sense a future in which it was possible that the Sith would be destroyed by a Jedi who was not the Chosen One and thus was not destined to be the one to destroy the Sith.
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  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Anakin was the deciding factor, which is my point. He would fulfill his destiny if he let Mace kill Palpatine, since by interfering he denies his destiny. Of course, Anakin only interferes because Mace has been goaded into killing Palpatine and thus forcing the boy's hand.


    Sidious no longer feared the prophecy itself, but he knew that the Jedi were the only ones capable of defeating the Sith. That was the point of the Temple raid and Order 66. This is why afterwards, the stragglers that survived were hunted down before they could even begin to pose a threat to them.
  3. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    It is. He cannot kill his Apprentice because of his emotional ties to him. He told Yoda that and yet was ignored. He could no more kill Anakin directly than Luke could. He knows that a second time around, the outcome would be worse with himself losing because Vader would be waiting for him. By Polis Massa, he knew that this was the only way.

    It isn't a nothing argument. A Jedi knows what is and what isn't to be. Obi-wan knew he wasn't the right man for the job before and after the duel. That's why he insisted on fighting Palpatine before going to Mustafar.

    We do know that they knew Bail. He's been in the Senate a dozen years by ROTS, served on the Loyalist Committee, and was their only ally after Order 66 came down. There's a reason he went to the Temple when he saw the fire. A reason he went to seek out any Jedi survivors. A reason he helped them to sneak back to Coruscant. A reason he picked up Yoda from the Senate Rotunda. And most importantly, was there on Polis Massa. He was a friend of the Jedi Order. And we've discussed the Lars. Anakin knew them and trusted them. That was good enough for Yoda and Obi-wan.

    We don't know what Luke would have done by the time he got to Anchorhead. He might have changed his mind and gone with Obi-wan. Besides, it doesn't matter in the end. Luke became a Jedi.
    Which isn't that far off from what the Jedi do.
    It does make sense. You just refuse to accept it. As to the Force, it might not even know that Anakin can be redeemed.

    Then you've always had a problem with the story, regardless of how Lucas started it off. From the beginning, the Jedi were in hiding from the Empire waiting for the day that they would return. Even going 1-6 in order, the situation would be the same. The Jedi would go into hiding and wait until the time was right. The same way the Sith waited a thousand years before launching their revenge.
    It was like four or five times during the earliest part of Luke's live. Mostly during the first ten years of Luke's life. The rest of the time, he followed the Lars around and would only talk to them and not Luke.
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  4. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    He left Anakin to burn to death. He doesn't seem to have a problem with his death, and if Jedi "know what will be", why didn't they know Anakin would become a Sith?

    We have no idea how well Obi-wan and/or Yoda knew bail, it could be barely. And we KNOW they didn't Owen or Beru at all, and that Obi-wan was more family to Anakin then either them. Again, the decisions make no sense and you have been unable to show otherwise. "They knew they had to wait until the time was right because the FOrc etold them so" isn't a logically or good reason, its a cop-out that has to be used because there isn't a logical reason for the characters to make the choices they do.

    When you see ANH without the PT you don't have the backstory and it could very well make sense that the Jedi would be hiding, that the Lars would be the ones to look after Luke etc... Lucas just didn't create a logical reason for it all when he wrote the PT.
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  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Right and Anakin didn't die. That's the point a lot of people have made over the last eight years. Had it been Mace or Yoda, Anakin would have died right then and there. They would have killed him without hesitation. Obi-wan hesitated. He couldn't bring himself to kill him, much less help him. All he could do was leave it up to the fire to do the job. As to Anakin's destiny, they did know that he was a danger when he was brought to them. They turned a blind eye because the Sith had returned and opted to let him be trained, rather than be sent back to Tatooine. Later on, they let their arrogance blind themselves for a long time about Anakin until they could start to see the problem that he was becoming. That is why Mace told Anakin to stay behind when he went to Palpatine's office to arrest him. He could sense the conflict within the boy, but assumed it was out of loyalty and not fear of loss. And Obi-wan had deluded himself into thinking that Anakin could never betray the Jedi Order, because he had been so loyal to them.

    It's kinda obvious that they know him well given all the things he did in ROTS, not to mention what had gone on during the Clone Wars and in the weeks leading up to it. Bail wouldn't have risked his ass if he wasn't a friend of the Jedi Order.

    No, they didn't know them. But Anakin, Padme and Shmi did. Doesn't matter if Obi-wan is more family or not, the Lars were Anakin's and Luke's family.


    The reasons are the same before the PT was ever made. Because Lucas, Kasdan and Brackett had spent so much time developing the backstory for the OT, they had a fairly good idea of why the Jedi would go into hiding and wait.

    Okay, let's play this game, what did you think it was? Before the PT, what did you think was the reason for hiding?
  6. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    So the Jedi know what will be when it suits you, but when it doesn't "they were stupid".

    No its not. Maybe he admired the Jedi, but never met Yoda or Obi-wan personally, or only knew them in passing etc...

    You're just wrong about the family. The Lars were not releted to Luke at all, they barely knew Anakin, and its not like Anakin was always the best judge of character that he would/should have inspired Obi-wan to trust him or his judgment. And you've talked about step family before, Obi-wan was MUCH more family to Anakin then the Lars. He and Anakin had a bond, they loved each other, they were like father/son AND brothers. Owen was basically a stranger then neither Anakin or Padme or Obi-wan knew.

    No they didn't. They had a vague idea. Hell, when Lucas came up with ANH, and Luke living with his aunt and uncle etc... he didn't know/hadn't come up with vader being Lukes father yet or Luke and Leia being brother and sister. Honestly, I never gave it it a tone of thought, but Lucas just didn't fill in the gaps great in the PT. Ultimately the characters don't make logical decisions that make sense in-universe. He gives no good reason why the twins have to be split up, why Bail would take Leia, why Leia would remember her mother, why Obi-wan doesn't raise Luke, why Yoda had to completely disapear, why both Jedi had to go into hiding, why the twins couldn't be trained from a young age etc... Doesn't mean they couldn't have existed, Lucas just didn't give them. And when you have to come up things like "they knew it was destinies" and "they just trusted the force", thats basically the same as saying "their decisions don't really make sense".
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
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    The Jedi don't know everything. By the time the Lightsabers duels have ended, the two Jedi know that it is not their destiny to continue the fight. This is because they can sense that it is not for them. They failed. They were part of the problem and only part of the solution. They saw the future of the Jedi Order was in the children of Anakin Skywalker, not the two of them fighting a war that they can never win. The Skywalkers were their chance for a clean slate. A new beginning. What they know is what they feel with the Force. Their actions in fighting the Sith were born out of duty and their mistaken belief that they had to fight this fight. Yoda finally begins to understand the truth when he is fighting Sidious and losing. He knows deep down that it is a lost cause and when he is beaten, he retreats because if he dies, the future dies with him. He and Obi-wan had to hide and protect that future, by keeping them from being discovered as potential Jedi.

    Bail was in the Chancellor's office when Yoda, Mace and the other Jedi present when the Loyalist Committee were there to discuss the attack and the pending legislation. And again when Obi-wan gave his report. Bail even says in ROTS, that his first goal when he left was to find Yoda. He knew who they were and they were friends.

    No, it is you who are wrong and ignorant of what it means to have a step family, much less a family at all. When my mom and step father got married, their individual families became a larger family unit. My stepfather's sister and her daughter, his parents and his aunt were part of my family. Just like mom's brother and his family, her younger sister and her daughters and her youngest sister were family. Along with her parents. Likewise when my dad remarried, his wife and her daughter became family. You are related in that just as you are when you start a family on your own. When your parents got married, their own families became related to each other. Not by blood, but by marriage. Your distant cousins on both sides are related because of that marriage.

    Owen and Cliegg were Anakin's step family because his mother married into that family. That made them family. The family is Cliegg, Owen, Beru, Shmi, Anakin, Padme, Jobal, Sola, Ryoo, Pooja, Ruwee, Luke and Leia. They're family. Add in the house of Organa and even Han, not to mention the EU characters that Han and Leia and Luke had as family. It becomes one great big family. The Lars were related to Luke because he is their step nephew and Shmi's grandson. Just because Shmi died, doesn't mean that they are no longer family. You can choose to cut them out of your life, or embrace them after the fact. When my stepfather died, the ties between his family and ours became severed over the course of a year. But when my mother's father died, my mom and the rest of us kids still kept in touch with his widow. She was his second wife and she, and her family are still part of ours. We loved and embraced this woman a long time ago and she is very much family to us.

    As to Anakin's judgment, they trusted it. End of story. Right up until he betrayed them.

    There's your problem. You never thought it through prior to when you saw TPM. It didn't matter about vague ideas and stuff regarding the origins, the fact is that the ideas still existed. You have trouble understanding it, not because Lucas was at fault, but because you have a different idea of what heroes should do and they run counter to Lucas's ideas.


    No, it doesn't. "Star Wars" is about destiny and placing their faith in themselves and in a power that is greater than one can imagine. Just as we in the real world put our faith in an invisible deity to guide our decisions and that we pray to. And until you understand what faith is with "Star Wars", then it will never make sense to you.
  8. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    Right, because they didn't kill Anakin (even though he basically did) and Palpatine once its IMPOSSIBLE for them to win a second time. Its not like we've seen Luke to Vader and then defeat him or anything right? They lost, so they run and hide because they HAVE to run and hide to set up the start of ANH, not because its makes any kind of in-universe sense.

    Again, NOTHING to indicate they know him or are friends with him, or know him on a personal level.

    Its funny you keep going on about how important step family (a "non-traditional family) is, and how your two families came together, basically how you don't have to be related by blood etc... but refuse to accept that Obi-wan was more family to Anakin, given that they actually knew each other, loved each other, filled several "family roles" in each others lives etc... then Lars who basically no one knew because they don't have to a "traditional family connection", you;'re the one who is being ignorant, you're refusing to Anakin and Obi-wan as family because they don't fit your defination of a family. And they don't once mention that they trust Anakins judgement, thats your addition to try to make their decision make sense.

    I undrestand it perfectly, unlike you I can just admit that it doesn't makes it sense and he didn't do a good job of justifying his characters actions. Even this lame "its their destiny" argument is yours, and not actually in the movie.

    And yes it does. If their actions actually made a lick of sense you'd be able to explain them, but you can't, so you fall back on lame, vague arguements you've made up that "the force told them too" and "it was their destinies", which don't hold up at all or explain anything. I can tell you're also getting fustrated by your inability to mount a viable defense of your opinion that you've now resorted to insulting me in your posts, which means I really have no more interest in talking to you about this anymore. You can reply to this if you want, but I won't be reading it.
  9. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    When Yoda and Obi-wan return to the Temple and view the holocam footage, they realize that there are two Sith and both are ones that they know. Yoda tells Obi-wan that they must both confront the Sith, but not together. This is a one shot deal on their part. Palpatine and Anakin don't know that they're alive. The Jedi have the element of surprise on their side. Both Sith Lords are separated from each other. If Anakin makes it back to Coruscant before Palpatine can be eliminated, the odds are stacked in the Sith's favor. If Sidious comes to Anakin's aide, then they're screwed. Time is against them. They both failed in their endeavor. Yoda knows he is not strong enough to beat Palpatine when the fight ends. Obi-wan left Anakin to die, but he survived and is even more angry at him. They will not gain a second chance at them. The Sith will be looking for them and they will surround themselves with Stormtroopers and Imperial officers. This is why they go into hiding. The Jedi that tried to fight the Sith were all killed. The ones who didn't went into hiding and surrendered the galaxy to the Empire. Galen Marek couldn't beat Vader and Sidious together. When Obi-wan arrived on the Death Star, Vader could sense his presence and went looking for him until he found him. Obi-wan didn't even fight to win. He fought to survive and then surrendered to Vader, because he knew it was not his destiny to win that fight. It was Luke's, which is why he looks over at him and then back at Vader, before smiling and raising his blade up to let Vader cut him down. It is the same reason Yoda stays on Dagobah instead of going to Cloud City.

    Yeah, total strangers don't risk their asses like that.

    Traditional family? What are you, a Republican right winger? Next you're gonna tell me that homosexuals shouldn't get married and raise children. A family is a family, period. End of story. The Lars were Anakin's family and by extension, Luke and Leia's. The connection is Shmi Skywalker. She married Cliegg and lived with him and his family for five years. That makes them family. It didn't matter how long Anakin and Obi-wan were together, they weren't family. They were defined as a teacher and his student, as well as being friends. It isn't my definition of family, it is the definition of anyone who knows better.

    They send him to the Lars, because they are family. They know who the Lars are. They know where they live. They knew that Shmi was freed and was part of their family before she died. You're the one who calls them strangers and I pointed out, that isn't true and that they trusted Anakin's judgement that they were good people. Anakin never once sense deception on their parts, nor ill will. He never had visions of his mother suffering until she was taken by the Tusken Raiders.

    No, you don't understand it. Calling destiny lame, shows me you don't believe in fate and destiny. Which is fine, but that's not "Star Wars". Destiny is a big part of the story and it is defined in their actions.


    Calling you ignorant isn't an insult. It is a statement of truth. You really don't understand what it is to walk a mile in my shoes, much less anyone else's regarding families. As to explaining, I have done nothing but that. The fact is that what I have said is true. Destiny is the key in "Star Wars". Lucas has said that for the longest time and has repeated it many times in his commentaries.
  10. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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