PT Why did Padme think Dooku was behind the attack

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Teegirloo, Mar 5, 2013.

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  1. Teegirloo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 6
    In AOTC there is nothing that states that Dooku was behind it. The Jedi thought it was illegal spice runners from Naboo. Where would Padme get that information on Dooku and the Jedi couldn't?
    Last edited by Teegirloo, Mar 5, 2013
  2. Jedi_Ford_Prefect Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 9, 2003
    star 4
    Well... he was behind it. Padme was trying to stop the war. Dooku and the Seperatists were trying to start one. She put two and two together.
  3. Plebeian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    Generally Dooku was blamed for everything.
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  4. Teegirloo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 26, 2005
    star 6
    Well i know he was behind it but what info did Padme have to believe that. This is before Clone Wars started. Actually the Trade Federation Nute Gunrey was behind the assassination attempts on her life.
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  5. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    A movie can't always explicitly state why something happens or how someone knows something. In those cases you're suppose to use your imagination. Logically Padme has some evidence that makes her suspect Dooku. Obviously it wouldn't make sense to accuse someone if you had no evidence suggesting they were involved.

    Also, while the Trade Federation (or more precisely the Viceroy of the Trade Federation) wanted Padme killed they were not involved in the plot. The reason behind killing Padme was to secure the Trade Federations agreement to join the Confederacy of Independent States. As the leader of the CIS and the one trying to secure they're joining, Dooku was the one behind the assassination plot.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  6. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Why because the (lack off) plot and the need to introduce Dooku to the audience as Lucas hadn't bothered to mention him in TPM and also because they needed a new villain since Lucas killed off Maul too.

    It also doesn't make sense since from Padme's perspective Dooku would be the last person for her to suspect. As the leader of a breakaway group of states (why are they not allowed to leave anyway ?) the idea that he would kill the person opposed to the creation of a military force that would be used to fight him would seem a bit stupid.

    The irony of course is that after that, there connection was pretty much dropped anyway since Lucas had it re filmed from Dooku having a confrontation with Padme to Obi-wan instead.
  7. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But if Padme has some evidence that points to Dooku being behind the hit on her life, why doesn't she share that info? She could have shared with Yoda and the other Jedi in the room. Or she could have told Obi-Wan and Anakin what she knew. Obi-Wan was going off to investigate matters so it would have been very usefull for him to know what Padme knows.

    As far as Padme knows at the time, she has no reason to suspect Dooku, in fact Dooku would be one of the last persons to want her dead.
    I know that he is in league with Sidious and they are plotting to start a war and all that but Padme doesn't know any of this.
    So he accusation makes little sense, esp as she never gives any reason for it and then the whole thing is promptly forgotten.
    To me, it comes across as a rather clumsy way to get Dooku's name and backstory mentioned early in the film as Dooku himself doesn't appear until much later. I also think the film was trying to set up Dooku as somewhat ambigious, that we wouldn't know for sure what side he was on. But that was undone by Padme's accusation, which made him look like a bad guy and when we finally see him, we learn that, yes he was behind the attack.

    As for the actual plot. Dooku is behind it as he was the one who told Jango what to do. But it was done at Nute's request. It seems that when Dooku spoke to Nute about joining the seps, Nute said "I'll join if you kill Padme for me." Dooku agreed and sent Jango.
    Of course he and Sidious have their own reason for wanting Padme dead. She stands in the way of the republic army and they need that for there to be a war. If the seps attack and the republic has no army, the war would be over in no time.

    There are some other odd things, when Jango talks to Zam, he says that his employer is getting impatient. Was the bomb the first attempt or had there been others? No mention is made of other attempts but why was Dooku getting impatient? Had Jango/Zam just wasted a lot of time before trying to kill Padme? And why use the killer bugs? If the droid can get that close to the building and cut the glass without tripping any alarms, why not use a bomb or gas? And how did they know that Padme would sleep in a room with a window? If she had sleept in a room further inside the buidling and they knew it, then the bugs makes some sense as they could crawl down pipes to reach Padme.

    One final, intersting question is, what would have happened if Zam has managed to kill Padme with her first attempt?
    Then Anakin and her would never have fallen in love and Palpatine would have lost a major help to turn Anakin.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  8. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
  9. Samnz Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 2
    It does make sense.
    Not every detail is explained, yes. But there are not contradictions or errors.


    That's the resolution:
    That's the pay-off:
    So missing the obvious "resolution" is The Secret History of Star Wars. Interesting. That makes sense.
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  10. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Based on the info in the film the most logical scenario is that Dooku posed as Sifo-Dyas when ordering the army and Sifo-Dyas was already dead at the time and thus had nothing at all to do with it. Fits all avalible evidence. But the question that remains unaswered is, who do the jedi think ordered the army? Obi-Wan is told about Sifo-Dyas but he also says that, as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the army was ordered. If this correct and the jedi confirm it, then they KNOW that the army was ordered under a false name. Which makes their contiuned use of it strange and why they aren't more careful in dealing with the clones.
    The jedi COULD suspect that Dooku is this Tyrannus but then that means that the Sith is behind both armies in this war.



    [/QUOTE]


    The mystery remains unsolved for the people actually investigating it, namely the Jedi.
    Obi-Wan says that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the army was ordered but we never find out if this is correct or not.
    Nowehere do the Jedi conclude who exactly ordered the army or why. They are faced with a great many questions but they get no answers.
    Other questions that are not answered are, who deleted the Kamino file? Propbably Dooku but again we don't know for sure.
    Who paid for it and how and could that money be traced?

    As far as I know, Lucas did say that EP III would deal with who Sifo-Dyas was and all that but that didn't happen.
    Then various EU books muddy the waters by saying that Sifo-Dyas DID order the army, despite what the movie says. This brings up many more questions but this is not an EU board.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Mar 6, 2013
  11. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    I think Padme read the script.

    It's the same way she knew Dooku/Anakin/Obi-Wan were headed to a hangar when she fell out of the ship.
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  12. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    But is not actually "Word of Lucas".

    True- but EU info can still be mentioned, even if it's not "the one and only answer".
    rumsmuggler and ILNP like this.
  13. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Whoa, you mentioned a lot of stuff here. I'll try and address them.

    1) Just because she has evidence doesn't mean she has proof. For all we know the "evidence" is that he gave her a hateful look one time. All i'm saying is that we have to assume she has some reason for mentioning that she thinks Dooku is behind the assassination plot. I will say that my personal opninion is that George Lucas just wanted to introduce Dooku at this time and that's why she mentions Dooku. But given that that is an OOU explanation, i'm forced to try and find a logical IU explanation. Also, she may not have mentioned her "evidence" to the Jedi if, as I said, her only "evidence" is a feeling or a look he gave her.

    2) I disagree that Dooku would be the last one to want her dead. Yes she opposes the Military Creation Act but keep in mind that Sidious and Dooku want a war which would mean that they want the Republic to have an army. So by killing her they are killing 2 birds with 1 stone. Not only do they remove a Senator that is standing in the way of the Military Creation Act but they also secure the admission of the Trade Federation to the Confederacy.

    3) I understand what you're saying about Nute Gunray wanting her dead. I think this one is all about your point of view. I look at it more as Dooku going to Nute Gunray and asking him what will it take for you and the Trade Federation to join the Confederacy and Nute telling him the death of Padme. In that way it's less Nute hiring a killer than a present to facilitate their admission to the Confederacy. It might be semantics but that's just how I see it. You of course can entirely disagree.

    4) It's never explicitly stated (even in the EU I believe) that there were other attempts but I think it's safe to assume their were. I mean the evidence strongly suggests there were other attempts. The use of a decoy, Padme's security chief saying that he guesses there was nothing to worry about after all, etc. Again, given that it's never stated explicity it's a matter of personal opinion but I think it's pretty safe to assume in this matter.

    5) I would assume that they've done recon on their target and knew that would be where she sleeps. In terms of the method, I don't have an answer for you. I can only assume that they believed it would work and that is why they used the bugs.

    6) I don't think Palpatines attempted seduction of Anakin to the Dark Side hinged on him falling in love with Padme. Did it help, i'd argue yes but I don't think that if Anakin had never fallen in love with Padme that he would never have fallen to the Dark Side. There were lots of reasons Palpatine could have used to lure Anakin to the Dark Side. If Padme is not there then he moves on to the next way.
  14. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    I have to say, I don't believe it was ever stated in the movie that Sifo-dyas was indeed dead before the purchase of the clone army. The ordering of the clone army and the death of Sifo-dyas take place 10 years before the movie. For all we know Sifo-dyas ordered the clone army and then 3 months later died. I've seen it mentioned that Obi Wan said he believed that Sifo-dyas was killed before the ordering of the clone army and that that was evidence that Sifo-dyas couldn't have ordered the army but Obi Wan doesn't say definitively that Sifo-dyas was killed before the ordering of the clone army just that be believed he was. Belief is far different than certainty.
    Last edited by ILNP, Mar 7, 2013
  15. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I don't think that the issue regarding Sifo-Dyas was well handled. I would have preferred if Sifo-Dyas had died and Dooku had impersonated him when he ordered the creation of the Clone Army. Actually, that's what I had assumed until I learned otherwise.

    Nor do I see any logical reason for Padme to suspect Dooku behind the assassination . . . unless she knew of his connections to Nute Gunray. But that was never specified. At least not in the movie.
  16. Lord Chazza Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 2
    Slightly off topic here but shouldn't we have seen Sifo-Dyas on the Jedi council in episode 1? Lama Su described him as a "leading member of the Jedi council" implying that he had been on the council for some time. Come to think of it Sifo-Dyas was murdered wasn't he? Why were the Jedi so unconcerned about how one of their top Jedi masters died?
    the_sinister_hologram likes this.
  17. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But Lucas wrote the script and directed the movie. And the theory that Dooku simply posed as Sifo-Dyas, who was already dead, when he ordered the clone army, fits all the avalible evidence. Dooku is a Jedi so he would know Sifo-Dyas name and could play him if need be. He was the one who hired Jango. He was a Jedi so he could have dleted the Kamino file. And we learn at the end that his and Sidous plan is going exactly as they had intended.
    So since Lucas isn't actuall IN the film, this is what we have to go with.


    [/QUOTE]

    But the post I was refering to said that there were no contradictions or errors and that the mystery is resolved.
    If we mix in EU then it seems that Sifo-Dyas DID order the army but the EU books stop short of making it 100% clear. Then there are questions why he would do this, if he came up with this by himself and Palpatine just lucked out by finding it or if he was under Palpatines "influence" when he placed the order.
    In short, EU raises more questions than it answers.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  18. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But Obi-Wans statemnet is all we have to go on. We never see Sifo-Dyas in any of the films and we have nothing but what Obi-Wan and Lama Su says. Lama Su says that the order was placed by Sifo-Dyas but Lama Su had no idea that Sifo-Dyas was dead and had been dead for a long while.
    Obi-Wan meanwhile knows when Sifo-Dyas was killed and he knows when the army was ordered and according to him, the order was placed after Sifo-Dyas death. Could he be wrong? Sure. Is there any evidence that suggest that he is? No. So I don't think we can start ignoring dialogue just because it MIGHT be wrong. We never see the Senate disbanded in ANH, we only hear Tarkin talk about it. Does that mean that we can say that the Senate wasn't disbanded and Tarkin was just misinformed or that the emperor was just kidding with him? Not without movie proof.
    Doing this would make ANY dialogue not directly proven true, possibly wrong.

    In closing, even IF Sifo-Dyas did not die until after the order was placed that still doesn't prove that he did, it just makes it POSSIBLE for him to have done it. Dooku is still a far more likely candidate based on what we know.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
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  19. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    If Lucas had wanted to make it clear that Dooku ordered the army under a false name, he could have said so in the DVD commentary.

    One EU book does make it 100% clear- stating outright that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army: The Essential Guide to Warfare.

    And the Darth Plagueis novel has Plagueis (in his civilian guise) talking to Sifo Dyas, and telling him about the Kaminoans and how they could make an army for the Jedi.
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1) But since we never learn what that reason is this speculation is useless. She could just be thinking "Someone wants me Dead, who can it be? Dooku starts with a D so he must want me Dead." To me the real reason is to get Dookus name across but it was handled rather poorly.
    Nothing more.
    If she knew something, there is no reason for her not to mention it to the Jedi, Anakin or Obi-Wan. But she doesn't so this makes the whole thing seem like exposition for the sake of exposition.

    2) But you forget a crucial detail, Padme does not know any of this. She has no idea that Sidious even exists and she has no idea that Dooku is a Sith. If we use this reason then Padme accuses Dooku just because she has read the script. Padme thinks that the seps and Dooku can be reasoned with and an army would be wrong as that would start a war, not prevent it. So obviously she has hopes that Dooku could be talked with and a peacefull solution can be achieved. The army that she opposes would be used against Dooku and from what she knows, this would not be in his best interest. If he wants to avoid a war, he would not want the republic to get an army. If he does want war he still would not want the republic to have an army as then he would win with ease.

    3) Nute is still involved as the attempt was made at his request. In a court of law, Nute would be charged along with Dooku and Jango.

    4) Yes it is quite possible that other attempts have been made. But it is never stated outright.

    5) But Jango gives the bugs to Zam directly after she has reported that her bomb failed. And if she had used a decoy with the ship why would she not use one in her bedroom and sleep somewhere else?

    6) Well this off-topic here but given what happens in RotS it very much seems that Padme was the all-important bait for Anakin. Without her, Anakin would not have stopped Mace from killing Palpatine.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor.
  21. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    And if Lucas wanted to make it clear that Sifo-Dyas DID order the army why did he have Obi-Wan say things that directly spoke against it?
    Why did he make it clear that Dooku had hired Jango and not Sifo-Dyas?
    Practically everything IN the movie speaks against Sifo-Dyas being involved so assuming that he is is counter-intuitive.

    And again, DVD commentray isn't the movie. What happens in the movie and what the characters say is. I don't give credit to things that aren't in the movie for one very simple reason, it wasn't IN the movie.
    If a filmmaker wants to convey certain info to the audience then put it IN the movie. Having crucial info be in books or comics is sloppy. A film needs to stand on it's own.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
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  22. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Jango says he's been hired by Tyranus and "has never heard of" Sifo-Dyas. Doesn't mean he's being honest.
  23. Lord Chazza Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 2
    It's not strictly speaking top canon or whatever it's called but in the game star wars bounty hunter it's explained how Jango Fett came to be the template for the clone arm and from that it's clear that Fett was telling the truth. He was indeed hired by a man called Tyrannus on one of the moons of whatever. He may have known that Dooku was impersonating Sifo-Dyas but the Sith Lords have a policy of dishing out info on a need to know basis and there's no real need for Jango to know that Dooku is impersonating Sifo-Dyas.

    Here's the end cutscene of the game.
  24. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    I'm not sure I agree with this. First of all, there seems to be some confusion over when exactly Sifo-Dyas died. Obi-Wan tells Lama Su that "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago." Later, he tells Mace Windu, "I was under the impression he was killed before that," meaning before the time when the order for the clones was placed. So the film isn't even clear on if Sifo-Dyas died before or after the clones were ordered. You could say that Obi-Wan was lying to the Kaminoans, but if he was trying to make them think everything was going according to plan, why would he tell them Sifo-Dyas was dead at all?

    It's clear that the Kaminoans didn't bother to check their client's credentials with the Republic or the Jedi, so if we were meant to assume that Dooku was behind it all, why did Lucas have him use a real person as his alias? Why bring Sifo-Dyas into it at all? This whole subplot is just a mess and I don't think the film convincingly implies a solution one way or the other.
    ILNP likes this.
  25. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    Page 206, AoTC novel:

    Lama Su: "We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas picked Jango himself."

    Lama Su: "Sifo-Dyas explained to us the Jedi aversion to leading droids. He told us a Jedi could only command an army of life-forms."
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