PT Why did Padme think Dooku was behind the attack

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Teegirloo, Mar 5, 2013.

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  1. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, she does that a lot in AOTC.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Mar 7, 2013
  2. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Unless we have some actual reason to think a character is lying, I am hesitant to throw out everything they say.
    How do we know that Han Solo really is Han Solo, he could be lying. Luke and Vader are not related, they are all just lying.

    Second, Obi-Wan is a Jedi and Jango knows it, so if he was lying chances are that Obi-Wan might be able to sense it.

    Third, Obi-Wan thinks that Jango was hired by Sifo-Dyas so what harm is there for Jango to confirm that?
    If the jedi think that this army was ordered by one of their own then they are probably more comfortable with using it than if they know that the army was ordered under a false name. So Jango would have zero reason to lie about being hired by Sifo-Dyas if that is what had actually happened.

    Question, who does Jango say hired him, Tyrannus or Darth Tyrannus? The latter is a Sith name and the Jedi know it. So that means that Jango was hired by a Sith. Is it terribly likely that a Jedi was working with a Sith to create a Clone army? Not really.
    Instead the more likely explanation is that this "Sifo-Dyas" is just Dooku and the same Dooku hire Jango.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    "Tyranus" is the name Jango used, not Darth Tyranus.

    A point is made of this in the young readers RoTS novel- Obi-Wan, after Order 66 remembers that the Jedi did some searching for a Tyranus and they could find no evidence of his existence "But I'll bet there was a Darth Tyranus. Why didn't I see it before?"
  4. janstett Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2004
    star 3
    Because they are complete idiots. Because they had to be complete idiots for Palpatine to pull of his plan. Because George of the PT doesn't like making a character fight an equal opponent, he has to make the opponent completely incompetent.

    Hmmm, when did all the trouble in the galaxy start? When did the Sith reappear after a 1,000 year absence? When did war break out in the peaceful republic? At the time of Phantom Menace, which is also when Sifo Dyas died shortly thereafter.

    Where did this skirmish happen? Naboo. Who used the crisis to gain power? Naboo's Senator Palpatine.

    10 years later, in AOTC, we find out a secret army was ordered at that time, by a Jedi who was killed. Hmmm, nope, nothing suspicious at all there. And the template for the clones is a bounty hunter who is trying to assassinate the new Senator from Naboo who is opposed to creating an army that's already been created 10 years ago, AND he ends up being linked to the Separatists. Nope, nothing suspicious there.

    Hey idiots, how about looking into these things a little more than not at all. [IMG]
    Last edited by janstett, Mar 8, 2013
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3

    I agreee that this subplot is a bit messy and there is no proper follow up on it in RotS.

    But Obi-Wan says first that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago. But later he says "They say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army, at the request of the Senate, almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. "

    So the Kamino people must have told him a date when the clone army was ordered, which also was almost ten years ago, but this date was after Sifo-Dyas death. Ex. say that Sifo-Dyas was killed 9 years and 11 months before AotC and the order for the clone army was placed 9 years and 8 months ago. Both dates are "almost ten years ago" but Sifo-Dyas death occured BEFORE the placing of the order.

    I don't think Obi-wan was lying to the Kamino people because then why mention that Sifo-Dyas was dead? At that point Obi-Wan didn't know when the army had been ordered so I think his statement is accurate.

    Of course this scene was rewritten and partially re-shot. At first there was a Sido-Dyas, a non-existent Jedi. In that version Obi-Wan asked "I am sorry, Master.." like in the film. But then he is told about Sido-Dyas and he says "Oh, master Sido-Dyas." and little else. Later when talking with Mace and Yoda he says he has never heard of a Sido-Dyas so in this version he is lying to the Kamino people.
    When it became Sifo-Dyas, a dead but real Jedi, they added the bit where Obi-Wan says "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed..".
    Here it seems that Obi-Wan isn't lying, at least beyond pretending to know about the clone army beforehand.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Mar 8, 2013
  6. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Alternatively, Obi-Wan doesn't know exactly when Sifo-Dyas died, hence his "impression" is in error.

    We never see the Kaminoans give him an exact date onscreen either- we only hear Obi-Wan's "almost ten years ago" figure he gives to the Council.
    ILNP likes this.
  7. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Since he says "They say a Master Sifo-Dyas placed the order for a clone army, at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago."
    It is clear that he has been told a date when the order was placed and that Sifo-Dyas was acting on behalf of the senate. We don't see the scene but since Obi-Wan talks about it, it must have occured.

    Why he uses the phrase "I was under the impression." is probably due to the fact that he has been told two contradicting facts, Sifo-Dyas, a dead Jedi, has seemingly placed an order for a clone army AFTER his death. Something does not add up here.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  8. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    We don't see the scene- so we don't know if the Kaminoans just told him "almost ten years ago" as they do in the book, or if they give him an exact date.

    Not just that- but we don't know that Obi-Wan knows the exact date of Sifo-Dyas's death.
    ILNP likes this.
  9. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Looking at it from another way- which of these possibilities involves the Jedi carrying the smallest Idiot Ball?

    Yoda goes to Kamino- finds out that the order was definitely placed after Sifo-Dyas's death, is "satisfied beyond reasonable doubt" that someone else placed it- and still uses the army with no provenance, without demanding further investigation.

    Yoda goes to Kamino- finds out (from vid-records) that the order was definitely placed before his death, and by him, is "satisfied beyond reasonable doubt" that it's an authorised army- and so, uses it.
    ILNP likes this.
  10. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1) Obi-Wan knows that Sifo-Dyas is dead and he knows when he died since he specifically says so in the film. He doesn't give an exact date but the SW films doesn't have a calender like Star Trek with it's Star Date. But not giving an exact date =/= not knowing when it happened.
    2) If the Kamino people simply told him "Almost ten years ago" then why does he say that he thinks that Sifo-Dyas was killed before that?
    If Obi-Wan doesn't know anything more than "almost ten years ago" for both dates then why does he mention the bit about Sifo-Dyas being dead when the army was ordered? Yoda had just rebuked him and told him NOT to assume anything. So if he has nothing more concrete than "almost ten years ago", then he wouldn't bring it up. But he does bring it up and this means that Obi-Wan must be reasonably sure about this.
    3) What is your evidence that Obi-Wan doesn't know the exact date of Sifo-Dyas death?
    Also, if Obi-Wan was unsure why didn't he ask Mace and Yoda? If they didn't know for sure then it would be a simple matter to check the archives for this date.
    4) What was Lucas intent with this line? If Lucas wanted the audience to leave AotC thinking that Sifo-Dyas really DID order the clone army then he did not do a very good job of getting that message across. Why have Obi-Wan bring up doubts about Sifo-Dyas involvement when the audience is supposed to think that he did order it? Makes very little sense. If Lucas intent was instead to make people think that Dooku ordered it, using Sifo-Dyas name, then things makes much more sense.
    And if that wasn't his intent then why include lines that cast doubt on his involvement when the goal is to establish that he WAS involved?
    Remove Obi-Wan lines about Sifo-Dyas being dead before the army was ordered and have Jango say that Sifo-Dyas hired him. Much simpler than spending time to create doubt and then ignore that doubt.

    Three things, if Yoda learns something off-screen that invalidates something previously established then we have a Plot Hole. A piece of the narrative is missing. Esp if the audience is supposed to watch RotS knowing that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army, despite all the doubts that AotC raised.
    Second, what vid-records, what makes you think such things exist and why did Obi-Wan not see them? And how much time could Yoda have had on Kamino before going to Geonosis. He arrived quite soon after Mace and co so how could he have found this out?
    Third, since the competence of the Jedi is in question we can't assume that they must have done the smart and sensible thing without proof. Otherwise your premise implies your conclusion. "Using an army ordered under a false name would be stupid and the Jedi can't be stupid so they must have found out that the army wasn't ordered under a false name."QED
    Perhaps Lucas intended for the Jedi to come across as really stupid.

    In closing, if a film or film series makes a character/characters seem quite dumb by what they say and do or don't do then that is going to be my impression of them. If I have to read some books to learn that these characters are not as clueless as they appear then the films have not done their job well. A film should not have to rely on books to tell it's story.
    Ex in the lastest ST film I found the villain, Nero, to be rather lacking in depth and his actions made very little sense. I have been told about a series of comic books that develop Nero's character and explain in detail what happened before and during the film and this made the character much better and his actions made much better sense. But that doesn't matter, a film should not rely on comics in order to work and so this is flaw of the film. I overall like it but I found the villain lacking but if some of that info from the comics had been in the film then he and the film would have benefitted from it.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    fett 4 likes this.
  11. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    While hardly a "show stopper" for me, I have to confess that the Sifo-Dyas / "Who really ordered the clones and why" elements of AOTC were less than satisfying for me as well. IMHO, from a simple storytelling perspective, it just isn't a good idea to bring that up, couched as if it is a mystery to be solved (and I think that IS how it was presented) and then have it just...fizzle out... inconclusively. The movie raises natural expectations that you are going to get answers, and then just moves on. I don't think it is as simple as saying "Well, they can't show you everything" or even as simple as saying "Not everything has to be spelled out". Given the emphasis placed on this plot point, and the time devoted to it, I think it required some sort of pay-off. In the end, we know "enough", I suppose - SOMEONE, probably posing as a dead Jedi, ordered the clone army. But who and with what motivation, we aren't quite sure. It just feels. to me. "off", strange, and kind of disruptive.
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  12. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    His phrasing "I was under the impression that he was killed before that" rather than "But I know for certain that he was killed before that".
    Hard to believe, since Yoda is portrayed as the wise, insightful mentor in the first trilogy.
  13. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    That need not indicate that he doesn't know the date. First, as I said, Obi-Wan has just been told two contradicting facts, Sifo-Dyas, a Jedi he knows to be dead, has seemingly placed an order for a clone army AFTER his death. This would cause anyone to think that something is off.
    Second, the phrase "I was under the impression" can be used if you are told something that contradicts with what you know.
    If someone tells you that Hitler died in 1952, you might respond "I was under the impression that he died in 1945". Or someone says they are going to climb both peaks of Mt. Kilimanjaro, you might say "I was under the impression there was only one peak."
    For ex. in the movie Dr Stangelove, the President is informed that one of his generals has launched a nuclear attack against Russia. He finds this very hard to believe and says "I was under the impression that I was the only one with the authority to launch a nuclear strike." And he was right, he was the ony one with that authority.
    Third, IF Obi-Wan was unsure about the date of Sifo-Dyas death, why didn't he ask Mace and Yoda? It would be a very simple thing. This reasoning actually makes Obi-Wan look really stupid, he is unsure when Sifo-Dyas died but doesn't think to ask Mace and Yoda about it?

    [/QUOTE]

    Well it has been over 20 years, perhaps Yoda used that time to actually learn to think instead of expecting the Force to tell all he needs to know.

    In any event, we have gotten very off-topic and lets end it here. But I still can't understand why you develop this mystery around the clone army. To say "Sifo-Dyas is said to have ordered this army but he is dead and it seems that he was dead when the order was placed, so was it really him?" To create doubt about who actually ordered it only to discard it between films and basically say "Oh wait, forget I said anything, Sifo-Dyas really DID order the army and there is no mystery."
    Makes very little sense from a filmmaking point of view. Why waste time with setting up a mystery that isn't really a mystery and one that you don't bother resolving in the films?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  14. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    That's exactly what he is doing, by saying that to Mace & Yoda.

    They don't answer him, (maybe they need to go to the records first and look it up?) but in the book:

    "When placed this order was, may provide insight," Yoda said, and Mace nodded. If the timing of the order was correct, then Sifo-Dyas must have placed it right before he died.
    ILNP likes this.
  15. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    Padme: I think Count Dooku was behind it

    Ki-Adi: he isa political idealist not a murderer

    Mace: you realise that he was once a Jedi, he couldn't assassinate anyone, it's not in his character

    Yoda: hmm great exposition this is, remember him you will audiance, shows up towards the end he does
  16. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    I am amazed not one asked her why she thinks Dooku was behind it, especially when from there's and her point of view, Dooku shoud be the least likely suspect.

    The script just seemed like a rushed sloppy mess that was written in a week, probably because the script was a rushed sloppy mess written in a week.
  17. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    the only reason I can think of is that it was Lucas showing Jedi arrogance in not even wanting to hear her out,

    they shut her down with "don't be ridiculous" and wasn't even going to contemplate her idea or even ask her why she thinks so.

    I'm probably wrong :p only thing I can think of that makes sense.
  18. fett 4 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    Well it has been over 20 years, perhaps Yoda used that time to actually learn to think instead of expecting the Force to tell all he needs to know.

    In any event, we have gotten very off-topic and lets end it here. But I still can't understand why you develop this mystery around the clone army. To say "Sifo-Dyas is said to have ordered this army but he is dead and it seems that he was dead when the order was placed, so was it really him?" To create doubt about who actually ordered it only to discard it between films and basically say "Oh wait, forget I said anything, Sifo-Dyas really DID order the army and there is no mystery."
    Makes very little sense from a filmmaking point of view. Why waste time with setting up a mystery that isn't really a mystery and one that you don't bother resolving in the films?

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface[/quote]

    Let's also not forget that the Planet was deleted from the Jedi Archives and yet the Clones were supposedly ordered "by" the Jedi, which Mace and Yoda confirm they "did not" do.

    Surely Alarm bells would ring over this discovery.

    As for Yoda why did he show up on Kamino anyway. All he knew was the Mace was taking some Jedi to rescue Obi-wan, as far as he could have known Mace could well have rescued Obi-wan and been on his way back home by the time he got there.
  19. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Um no, Obi-Wan doesn't ask them about the exact date when Sifo-Dyas died. He asks them if the JC approved the creation of a clone army, which they deny. It would take two seconds for him to ask "As far as I recall, Sifo-Dyas died 9 years and 10 months ago, is this correct?" They could either confirm or deny and if they don't know either, call the records dept. which would not take long.
    But he doesn't. Which is stupid if he was unsure about the date when Sifo-Dyas died.

    Add to this, even IF Sifo-Dyas was killed AFTER the order was placed, that still doesn't prove that he did it. It only means it is no longer impossible.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
  20. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    To add to this, Padme has just accused the leader of a political movement for murder and attempted murder. And she does this in front of several people. In our world, if one politician publically accused another politician for attempted murder then I would imagine there would be consequences.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
    fett 4 likes this.
  21. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    I'm not ignoring dialogue. The dialogue does not state when exactly Sifo-dyas was killed or when the army was ordered beyond an ambigious date of 10 years ago. You are free to believe that Dooku is the one who ordered the army (and I can't argue that point with you because none of us know for sure who ordered it). You say that Obi Wan knows when Sifo-dyas was killed but all I hear is a vague "I thought he was dead by then." Doesn't seem to sure to me. Maybe it's just me and i'm wrong but that's what I take from the scene. That there's confusion on if Sifo-dyas may have been still alive and therefore able to order the army.
  22. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
  23. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    How did you come to this decision? Did the Jedi know that Sifo-Dyas was murdered? And why would the Jedi be concerned over someone who had died nearly a decade ago?


    As for Padme's suspicions of Dooku . . . it's a blooper. I think it's pretty obvious. Why are you guys making a big deal out of it? There are plenty of bloopers in all of the six films.
    Last edited by DRush76, Mar 11, 2013
  24. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    "Sifo-Dyas was killed, more than 10 years ago." This implies foul play.

    When Obi-Wan contacted Mace and Yoda there is uncertainty. Obi-Wan uses the phrase "I was under the impression" and Mace and Yoda seem to be rather shocked. For all we know the Jedi fully investigated the death of Master Sifo-Dyas and declared it a closed case but that is not the impression I get from the film. The fact that Dooku is overseeing the cloning project impersonating Sifo-Dyas and the fact that Jango Fett is unaware of Sifo-Dyas and thinks he is being employed by a man called Tyrannus implies that Dooku had a hand in Sifo-Dyas's death but the Jedi confidantly declare that "Dooku is no murderer." I think it is fairly clear that the Jedi did not bother to fully investigate the death of one of they're top Jedi masters which is very strange. If I were part of an elite order and one of my top people simply disappeared or died in strange circumstances I would throw all my resources into finding out what happened.
  25. Darth_Zandalor Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 2, 2009
    star 4
    She read the script and discovered the secret. Also how she knew Dooku was flying towards an escape hangar despite falling out of the gunship.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
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