PT Why did Padme think Dooku was behind the attack

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Teegirloo, Mar 5, 2013.

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  1. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    Obi-Wan knows that Sifo-Dyas is dead and also when he was killed because he says so in the movie. That he doesn't give a specific date doesn't mean he doesn't know it. As I said, the SW film doesn't have any kind of established calender or system of dates.
    Obi-Wan also knows when the clone army was ordered because he says so in the film. Again the lack of saying a specific date =/= doesn't know the specific date.
    So a person that knows both dates makes a point of mentioning that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered.
    Can Obi-Wan be wrong? Sure. Is he PROVED wrong? No. Thus his stament stands. And since we have little else to go on, Dooku as the one that made the order fits all avalible facts. Such as Jango was hired by him, his and Sidious plan etc.
    That Obi-Wan sounds a bit unsure is not strange because he has just been told two contradicting facts, a dead Jedi has laced an order for a clone army after his death, something does not add up here.
    Lastly, if Obi-Wan was unsure about his own memory about Sifo-Dyas death, why not ask Mace and Yoda? It would take two seconds.
    They could either confirm or deny that date. But he doesn't ask.

    Publically accusing the leader of a political movement for murder and attempted murder is a very serious thing and for Padme to do this based on some totally arbitrary reason makes her look dumb. Also she could have mentioned Dooku to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

    No, unless Padme knows about Dooku and Palpatine she has no reason to think that Dooku wants her dead.
    She opposes an army that would be used against Dooku, her death could make this army a reality.
    If Dooku wants to attack the republic, it would be in his interest that the republic is weak and doesn't have an army. The he would win with ease.
    If he wants to leave in peace he still would not want the republic to have an army as that army could be used to smash him.
    Dooku being in bed with the TF wasn't known at time and even if she knew, why didn't she point the finger at Nute instead? She knows that he would have a grudge against her and he has been shown to be less than honorable at times.

    When characters do something that seems odd, counter-productive or makes little sense then I think that the movie should give some quick explanation as to why they do these things. Having characters just do things because the plot requires it can sometimes bug me.
    A quick line like "The scanners will detect weapons, poisons and explosives but not living creatures." could work.

    Even with all that he still turned Palpatine in to Mace. And without his worry over Padme, he would not have any reason to rush over to Palpatines office and he would not have stopped Mace from killing Palpatine. He turns in order to save Padme, that is the main reason. Those other events are significant yes. But mostly they showed that Anakin can do terrible things if motivated, Padme is his motivation. Remove her and you remove his motivation.

    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark
  2. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Padme was in league with Dooku this whole time! Padme is the evil one!
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  3. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    1) Given that we don't know the reason we can hardly call it arbitrary or her dumb for thinking it. We're never given an explanation for why she believes Dooku is the one behind the attack. So why don't you come up with your own explanation. I have mine and it works for me. Instead of just saying that it's a stupid scene (and in this I agree with you) and because it's not stated what her reason is she must not have one, why don't you just come up with a logical reason that works for you.

    2) You stated that Dooku had no reason for wanting Padme dead. We as the audience know that that is not true. That is what i'm referencing.

    3) I get that. It bugs me sometimes too. But since it was not stated in the movie i'm forced to find a logical reason for why they do what they do. My explanation works for me. Might I suggest you come up with an explanation that works for you.

    4) We'll just have to agree to disagree. The way it played out did she play a major part? Yes. However, there were plenty of other ways for him to fall if she's not around. He didn't kill the Tusken Raiders for Padme. Didn't kill Dooku for Padme. He craves power, and that is his ultimate motivation.
  4. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    I have to disagree with your interpretation of the word impression. When someone believes something but isn't sure (i.e. know for a fact) and then is told something contradictory, then your usage is correct. However, your examples are wrong. I was a History major in college. I know that Hitler died April 30, 1945. If someone were to come up to me and tell me he died in 1952 i'd tell them "No, he died April 30, 1945." I woudn't tell them I was under the impression he died on April 30 because I know when he died.

    OMG I've become a grammer troll. I'll be back once I find a therapist to help me.:D
  5. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1. You suggested that Padme thinks that Dooku is behind is due to him giving her a funny look at one point. My counter is that IF Padme has no evidence at all and goes on something vauge as a look or something like that then her actions are stupid.
    If she has more solid info then why doesn't she share that with the Jedi or with Obi-Wan and Anakin.
    So in either case, her actions don't make sense. If she has no evidence beyond a look or Dooku has a beard so he must want me dead or something like that, he accusation is stupid. If she has solid evidence then not sharing that with the Jedi or Obi-Wan and Anakin is also quite stupid. Esp since she asks "I want to know who is trying to kill me." Did she just forget that she thought that Dooku was the one not long ago?
    The writing is sloppy.

    2. And I am talking about Padme's reasoning and motivation. What the characters say and do has to make sense from what they know at the time. Otherwise they only do things because the plot requires it. Which again is sloppy writing.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    fett 4 and Lord Chazza like this.
  6. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    I'm pretty sure I've hit on something here actually with Sifo-Dyas. If he died "almost 10 years ago" then he should have been on the Jedi Council in episode 1 but he wasn't.
    KilroyMcFadden likes this.
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not everyone "on the council" was present for Anakin's testing. Even High Council members can be called away from Coruscant now and again.
  8. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    1) I never suggested that the reason Padme thought Dooku was behind the assassination attempt was because of a mean look he gave her. I simply was using an example of something that doesn't have tangible evidence to show an investigator but which could still make Padme suspect someone. And why, if she has no tangible evidence and goes simply on a gut instinct, are her actions stupid? You never had a gut feeling that you followed despite not have evidence that it would work out the way you thought it would?

    2) Not sure how this applies to my argument that we as the audience know that Dooku has a reason to kill Padme. We know that Dooku wants Padme dead in order to secure the committment of the Trade Federation to the CIS. Padme doesn't need to know this to suspect Dooku. There are countless reasons we can think of for why she suspects him. I'm aware that her reason is never told to us in the movies. I agree with you in that that was sloppy and it would have been easy to have her state. But; again, since it wasn't in the movie i'm forced to come up with a logical reason.
  9. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    I can't remember off the top of my head, was Sifo-dyas on the High Council? Weren't there like 3 or 4 other councils?
  10. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    Well Lama Su said "Sifo-Dyas is still a leading member of the Jedi Council is he not?" I'm pretty sure he meant the top council - the council with Yoda on it I mean.
    Last edited by Lord Chazza, Mar 13, 2013
  11. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    Fair enough. Was just thinking that if, instead of the High Council, it had been one of the other lesser councils that that would be a logical reason for not seeing him on the Council as seen in TPM. Just an idea. But, now having heard that statement from Lama Su again, I would think she's referring to THE Jedi Council and not a Jedi Council.
    Last edited by ILNP, Mar 13, 2013
  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    That's a pretty vague answer. Getting killed doesn't always imply murder.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Yup. You have to go to the EU books (Labyrinth of Evil) for confirmation that Yoda has figured out that Sifo-Dyas was murdered, by that point.
  14. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    1. Publically accusing the leader of a large political movement for murder and attempted murder is a very serious accusation.
    To do that based on no real evidence, only a gut feeling, is rather stupid. If a US Senator accused the President of trying to have him killed and having killed several members of his staff, don't you think that would lead to a reaction? And what do you think would happen if that Senator had no real evidence at all and said "Well it is just a gut feeling I have." That Senator would loose credibility and possibly be brought up on charges. So if Padme has no evidence, publically accusing Dooku is not very smart. If she does have solid info, why doesn't she share it with the Jedi. It would make some sense if she brought up Dooku when talking with Anakin and Obi-Wan because that meeting is less public. Also I think that the deleted scene in the senate was much better. There Padme said that the ones behind the attack was someone that wants the army bill to pass. Makes much better sense.

    2. Yes Padme does need to know this to suspect Dooku. She oppses an army that will be used against Dooku. From what she knows at the time, Dooku would be among the last people that would want her dead.
    And sometimes there aren't any logical reasons for why characters in films do or say what they do, sometimes they have to say or do something just in order for the plot to work.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Maybe it was a case of knowing that Dooku and the Trade Federation are in cahoots, and knowing that Gunray has wanted her dead since TPM, even if it's not in his best interest.
  16. Samuel Vimes Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
    star 3
    But then she would accuse Nute and not Dooku. Why would it be impossible for Nute to hire an assassin to try and kill Padme?
    Also the Dooku/TF alliance did not seem to be known. From what is said, Padme fears that IF the seps feel threatened they might turn to the commerce guild for help. So that suggest that the commerce guild might help the seps if need but they aren't actually in alliance.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
  17. ILNP Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2011
    star 1
    1) Politicians make very serious accusations all the time. Not very many of them are ever really taken to task if it turns out to be a lie. Also, she's not taking Dooku to court and accusing him which would require legitimate proof and evidence. Since she's just stating something she believes, the burden of proof is less. Not to mention that as soon as she mentions that she suspects Dooku, the Jedi immediately disagree with her and state pretty definitively that he is incapable of such acts. Maybe she decided that any evidence she did have would likewise be dismissed by the Jedi so what's the point.

    2) Again, Padme's reason (whatever it is) for suspecting Dooku and Dooku's real reason for wanting her dead are seperate. You made a blanket statement that Dooku had no reason for wanting Padme dead. Fortunately AOTC does give us his reason. Padme doesn't need to know that Dooku is attempting to kill her in order to secure the Trade Federation joining the CIS. She can suspect him for an entirely different reason but that doesn't change the fact that he did have a reason.
  18. Lord Chazza Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2013
    star 4
    No it isn't. If there was no foul play then Obi Wan would have said that Sifo-Dyas died 10 years ago. The fact that he uses the verb killed implies that someone was responsible for his death. You are right in saying that 'killed' doesn't always imply murder. For example: you can say that someone was killed in car crash (or in the star wars universe airspeeder crash) but if that is the case you would normally qualify the word 'killed' with the circumstances. Saying "My friend was killed" is very different from saying "My friend was killed in a car crash."
    Last edited by Lord Chazza, Mar 14, 2013
  19. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Three pages of posts and yet, I feel there is a simple explanation as to why Padme thought Dooku was behind the attack on her at the beginning of the film . . . BLOOPER.
  20. BigAl6ft6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2012
    star 5
    Dooku walked up to her and whispered in her ear "I'm gong to try to blow up your transport on the way to Courscant" then disappeared into the night. He had a lot to drink that day. :/
  21. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    She got an email from Dooku with the words "lol ima blow up yur ship lololol!!! kthxbye"
    KilroyMcFadden and BigAl6ft6 like this.
  22. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2002
    star 4
    This is one of the things that RLM hit the mark on that I totally agree with. And like Plinkett says, "and don't any of you ****heads tell me to go read one of the books or comics for the answers." "The movies are all that really matter".

    Yeah, I agree that it had to be Dooku impersonating as Sifo-Dyas. It also makes sense to say that Tyranus/Dooku killed Sifo-Dyas in order for him to pass the Sith initiation.
    Last edited by DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR, Mar 20, 2013
    Jcuk likes this.
  23. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    And if Lucas wanted to make it clear that Sifo-Dyas DID order the army why did he have Obi-Wan say things that directly spoke against it?
    Why did he make it clear that Dooku had hired Jango and not Sifo-Dyas?
    Practically everything IN the movie speaks against Sifo-Dyas being involved so assuming that he is is counter-intuitive.

    ---

    you have a point
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The Kaminoans do say that Sifo-Dyas "handpicked Jango".

    "Someone masquerading as Sifo-Dyas" might be slightly more intuitive- but just because it's "more intuitive" doesn't mean it's "fact".
  25. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    if it was dark knight Nolan trilogy I'd agree

    but it isn't, it's a kids movie first and formost

    things need to make sense to them,

    it's why bad guys carry red sabers and good guys blue and green.

    It has nothing to do with "synthetic lightsaber crystals" or however EU tries to explain it away
    Last edited by Sistros, Mar 25, 2013
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