Why did that guy insinuate that believing in the Force was just a regular nonsensical religion?

It seems odd. It is not like Vader was claiming that a God that he had no evidence of was 100% real, whilst threatening anybody who questioned it with some punishment.

HE PROVED IT!

He choked the guy without touching him!

Now, why did this guy not realise that the force was real?

Did Vader not prove it before? Hell, if he had force choked just one person before I bet word would have got around!

So, did Vader use the force much before ANH?


Another thing is the guy's reaction.

Didn't he want to know how Vader did that? No-one asked.


TLJ Edit: You have an edit button. I suggest you use it.

 

It's not that Motti (the guy who was choked by Vader) didn't think the Force was real, but he had a huge inferiority complex that the Death Star solved. He wasn't about to let a figurehead (Vader) imply that his Death Star wasn't the most powerful thing in the galaxy without throwing in a few verbal barbs about the Force.

Motti knew what the choke was about; he got Darth-served.

 

it was much more a personal attack than "blasphemy". He says "Your sad devotion didn't this and that". He blames Vader personally for not getting stuff done despite having that awesome cosmic power.

 

I would add that since the events in ROTS, Palpatine did a masterful job villifying the Jedi, the chief users of the Force. By the time ANH happens, there has been 20 years of disinformation regarding the Force and the Jedi, and it makes sense that Motti would believe it. Afterall, that Palpatine was a Sith Lord was not common knowledge, so he viewed Vader as the last of his kind. Surely if Motti had known that Emperor Palpatine was Darth Sidious, a living/breathing Sith Lord, he probably would have shown Vader a little more respect.

 

Knowing the force exists and actually seeing a demonstration of it are two different things.

Remember the beginning of Phantom Menace, one of the Separatist leaders doesn't seem concerned about taking out two Jedi, the other one knows that Jedi are very dangerous.

And it was an appropriate slap in the face, despite Vader's knowledge of the force, he did not secure the plans, find the hidden base nor stop the Death Star from being destroyed.

 

Who said blasphemy?

Edit: Oh, right - the double post.

Sorry.

 

He never outright said blasphemy. That's simply one way you could take "sad devotion to that ancient religion". However, as acmilanboy said, it was simply an inferiority complex, as Motti believed that his Death Star was the most powerful tool in the entire universe.

 

If Vader was not able to display the force it would have been OK in my book.

It was just an odd choice of words since this is not really religion as we know it. The force works in mysterious ways, but it is pretty evident that it works.

 

The Force is like God, though, therefore part of a religion in the Star Wars Universe.

 

It's not religion as we know it, but within the SW universe it is very much a religion. As time goes by and the memory of a bygone religion fades the doubters will increase more and more (regardless of whether there were physical displays of said religion in the past) and there's especially going to be doubt from someone who serves the group that eliminated that religion from the universe.

 

I always thought 'religion' was more of a metaphor, Tarkin uses the word as well, remember.

From dictionary.com

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.


I think that would class the Jedi order as a religion, in the GFFA sense of course. Humans in GFFA weren't religious in the same way we are, it's only primatives (like the Gungans and Ewoks) who are were like that.

 

GL just didn't have the PT planned out yet. That's the simple reason. You can also ask, why does Luke ask Obiwan what the Force is? The Force is known throughout the galaxy. Interestingly, we can find GL's orginal intention in the EU. When Tim Zahn was writing the Thrawn Trilogy, which was released in 1991, I believe, he asked Lucas himself for dates of the Clone Wars, which he was planning to reference in the novel, and Lucas told him 40-50 years before the events of the OT. So really, the guy using those dates, it's completely pausible that the guy would say the Force doesn't exist or is a joke. He grew up and he's never seen the Force is use, throughtout the galaxy, like the time of the PT. Quite frankly, as presented in ANH, Vader seems to be the sole public Force user in the galaxy. The Jedi seem to be something of a vague myth.

 

I just take it that Motti was just mocking Vader's use of the Force and why that didn't help them retrieve the stolen data tapes that were currently in R2.

He was saying: "Yeah? Well, your little Force thingy didn't help out one bit! My Death Star is gonna help us a lot more than your....*urk*"

 

Because ignorance is arrogance. The guy feels like he's all superior because he's part of a super death ray, so to speak. The power to blow up a planet is quite magnificant, but Vader talks him down telling him he's knows nothing because the force can do so much more.

The guys never seen a planet destroyed by pure thought, but with a lot of work they've constructed a machine to kill thousands in seconds. Plus, this guy doesn't have access to use of the force, therefore he pretty much tells Vader that they've constructed something just as great if not better than the force because its something everyone can control, something that is actually tangible and visible. He never thought the force was so complicated and amazing because he was born into a non-force sensitive world after the jedi were killed, he never saw the greatness and power of the force.

Vader shows him whos boss though.

 

Yep. That pretty much covers it. George is great and all... but he's only human. Regardless of what he has produced since the OT, in 1977 he had really very little concrete work to go off of. It's one of the problems of writing a story, and then later on trying to go back and flesh out what was once just vague points of reference for the author into full blown working features. The shortness of the dark times between episodes III and IV has always kind of bothered me, but there's not much you can do when you consider all the factors having to be satisfied.

-TJ

 

I was thinking about this and something struck me. There was no real need for the end of the Clone Wars to coincide with Vader's fall to the dark side and mutilation at Obi Wan's hands. If they concluded the Clone Wars in Ep II, Ep III could have concerned Palpatine using his victory over the Separatists to slowly take over the Republic completely and Anakin's gradual shift of loyalty from the Jedi to Palpatine. That way, the "dark times" could go on for another 20-30 years, giving Vader and Obi-Wan enough time to age appropriately and Anakin a way to physically conceive the twins before clashing with Obi Wan and being put in the suit. Then, 20 more years of darkness passes and we're at Ep IV.

 

Think of it this way.

People hated the Jedi. Not because they were "evil" like the Sith, but because they were aloof and powerful, and wielded a political might that must have made many uncomfortable.

Now, along comes Palpatine, and wham bam the Jedi are social pariahs, slaughtered, declared enemies of the state and evil.

Now, with 10,000 Jedi and trillions upon trillions upon trillions of Galactic citizens, the chances are 99% of these people would never have had a chance to see a physical manifestation of the power of the Force.

If the totalitarian Empire says that the Jedi were charlatans and the Force isn't real, than most people over time, both because they hated the Jedi and because they heard it over and over, are going to accept that.

And, if the Empire is promoting it as the truth, then it is probably "Party line" and it is required for the Empire's officers to espouse it.

Thus, any successful General or Admiral probably would have taken any opportunity to dismiss the Force.

 

Well, there are a few things...

Problem A:
Leia says to Obi-Wan via holorecording: "General Kenobi... you served my father during the Clone Wars..."
Now, this can be addressed several ways
1.) Leia meant this figuratively, as in Kenobi served Bail Organa (a not only as a citizen, but as an offical/senator of the republic)
2.) Bail could have simply lied to her, although relationships/bonds based on lies are less then healthy and/or successful
3.) There was an unseen piece of the Clone Wars where Kenobi actually works under Senator Organa's command

Problem B:
The Jedi council would not have stood for Palpatine's continued reign as Supreme Chancellor. There would have had to have been another incident manufactured for his continued control so the Jedi would be kept from taking action... theoretically, this could've been a drawn out variation of Order 66 where Palpatine tried to politically murder the Jedi BEFORE exterminating them, but his plan was designed around this lightning fast decisive power shift. For him to do that, the Jedi had to not only be dead and gone, but defamed too. His disfigurement, regardless of exact origin, helped fuel the fire of the "attempted coup" of the supreme chancellor. And once the Jedi were being hunted, Yoda and Kenobi would have needed to have gone to ground AND done so without a trace. Continued activity here would've risked extermination. And you can bet that had they been exposed once, Palpatine would not have let anything other then their dead bodies suffice for proof that they were 'no longer a threat.'

Problem C:
Padme. Simply and barbarically put, she was a vehicle for Vader to conceive the twins. If she still lived AFTER their birth, both she and the children would've been in danger... and Vader would've been distracted. If the twins were to 'die'... that would've unnecessarily complicated things. Sidious needed Vader focused on his suffering, his misery, and his single function in life: to serve the emperor. If Padme was alive, whether captive or free, Vader would not be focused on hunting the Jedi and supporting Palpetine. Additionally, if she were alive and free, she'd likely be an agent or instrument of the rebellion - not getting it on with Anakin. So, this means she'd either have to be out of the picture at the time of Vader's fall - which leaves 20 years for the twins to age to the right time for ANH - or not be their mother. Personally, I always thought prior to the prequels of their mother not being all that important - or even identified really. But as it stands she is, so my thoughts on that are irrelevant.

Problem D:
Luke clearly states he has no memory of his mother. By all evidence of the movies, he has no recollection other then growing up on the Lars homestead. So where would that leave him if there was... say... 50 years between III and IV? It would seem to me it would have to involve one of the already eliminated answers: he couldn't have been raised in some Imperial Orphanage or by his real parents or a nanny in the home on Coruscant. And if he wasn't raised by anyone other then his Aunt and Uncle... then there'd have to be a reason for him to have secretly and safely delivered: he was thought to have died with his mother before birth. And how does Palpatine in the established story handle that? Quite w

 

GL might have decided against the orginal time line in order to make Vader more of a player in the PT. GL can say all he wants that he had Anakin and Vader as the same person since Day 1, but we all know that's a lie. So reworking Anakin as Vader would mean that most likely wanted to emphasize Vader's role in the beginings of the Empire. Which as Anakin cutting off Mace's hand, and the rest is galactic history. With the current time line, I'm in favor of it because Vader's helps create and destroy the Empire.

 

I don't see why this is a problem. Obi Wan can still "serve" Bail during the Clone Wars

I agree, but this plot point would have to be addressed in an alternate Ep III that takes place after the Clone Wars have concluded. Perhaps Palpatine's leadership creates a schism among the Jedi and the "good" ones that don't side with Palpatine are branded traitors and exterminated and the ones that do fall in line are betrayed and murdered anyway by Vader. Just thinking aloud...

I think for this alternate timeline to work, the mother would have to be more irrelevant to the story, as you suggest. But then, I never thought love was such a

 

I thoroughly enjoyed the dialogue between Vader and the officer, especially about "frightening us with your sorceror's ways . . ." I think that it is a great line because it demonstrates the darkening of knowledge during the time of the Empire. The lack of knowledge about the Force would definitely not be something opposed by Palps. Why would he want people to learn to use it. They may just become another threat to him. It serves him well to limit that knowledge to as few as possible, kind of like an elite group of gnostics, or any of the mystery cults in our own ancient history (i.e. Greco-Roman), or even the Freemasons during later times. This darkening of knowledge is similarly reflected in Tolkien's works. Moreover, it is a shift towards a more natural/materialistic view of the universe, not unlike our modern world, from a previous "religious" worldview (i.e. Christianity to Scientific Revolution). Vader's remarks demonstrate this shift when he says "don't be too proud . . . it is insignificant next to the power of the Force," and at the same time reminds the officer of that lost knowledge, "I find your lack of faith disturbing." What makes this such a great thread is that the question goes to the very heart of Star Wars' great appeal and initial success. It is this appeal to "religion," "mysticism," "optimism," or whatever one wants to call it. Vader is reinforcing that, albeit the Dark Side, but even that is somewhat inspiring. In ESB, what was Vader's next line after he initially asked "You found something?" It was "That's it, the rebels are there." Instant recognition. Intuitive. The Force. Despite objections by yet another officer, Admiral Oswal. That's just my take on this question and a good opportunity to expound upon it.

 

I'm not saying 50 years between III and IV. More like 50 years between II and IV. The same approx. 20 year distance between III and IV is in effect because this bizarro version of III would still end much the same was as the actual film--Obi Wan versus Anakin, Luke in the care of the Lars', etc.



twenty years between 2 and 3? anakin adn padme wuld be a pretty old couple then to get kids.and I think hed be too old ot fall for palps

 

I think it was just put in there to show that Vader is kind of an anachronism, and to establish that he was once a warrior-monk of sorts. The galaxy is now run by militarists, bureaucrats and those who trust in technology. The admirals and generals are highly distrustful of the wizards of yesterday. It shows that Vader doesn't really fit in with the new world order (until we meet the Emperor himself, and see that the evil magicians run the show).

 

I always knew this scene wouldnt work after the prequels came out mainly because the short span of time of ep3 to 4. That is due to the fact that Luke and Leia had to be born to reach the right age in ANHH.
Lucas messed up by making Luke and Leia twins, because 1. the line by Motti talking about the force as something from the far past, and 2. because Vader doesn't realize he is standing next to his daughter the whole time! Then again the Jedi in the PT didnt notice they were standing next to their arch nemesis so i guess it all works out

 

Actually, I think it works rather nicely. If anything can change opinions and facts that radically and that quickly, it's a totalitarian dictatorship. Think about it, they have monopoly on the truth, and can fill the airwaves with everything that they want people to believe, and no can can say otherwise.

You also have to remember that even when the Jedi were around, they were kind of mystical figures that everyone were talking about but few had actually met in person. Even fewer had seen them employ their powers. So when Palpatine went out and said that the Jedi Order's power was fake and/or exagarated, it probably didn't take long to turn public opinion against them.

IMO, watched in order 1-6 it works to show how radically the evil Empire has transformed the galaxy. Of course plus the fact that it has put these arrogant men in power. I mean, it's not that the existance of the Jedi themselves had been debunked, just the fact that they really were "all that".