PT Why did the council retract their decision and approve Anakin's training?

This is one thing that was never quite clear to me in TPM. I know that Obi-Wan threatened to train Anakin on his own if the council didn't approve, but Anakin clearly failed to meet the qualifications for beginning training: qualifications that had been set up specifically to avoid the kinds of problems Anakin ended up having. Why would the council then ignore that and approve the training? To keep Obi-Wan in the fold? To be able to watch over the boy? No reason seems strong enough to put the Republic at risk like that. No one said the Prophesy required the Chosen One to be trained, so what gives?

 

I've always felt as if Qui-Gon's death made the Council sympathetic to his wish that Anakin be trained. Obi-Wan initially agreed with the Council, too. But as it was his master's dying wish that Anakin become a Jedi, he pressed the issue until he was granted permission.

 

The fact that Anakin destroyed the Trade Federation battleship may have played a part - a hint that his powers have already developed considerably even without training.

Also, Obi-Wan's account of the battle confirms Qui-Gon's conclusion from earlier, that the Sith have returned.

 

I think it was his actions during the Battle of Naboo that swayed them. Even if the situation was unintentional, it was clear that someone who could survive an ordeal such as single handedly (depending on how big of a role you think Artoo played in those circumstances) destroying a Trade Federation battleship from the inside is quite an impressive feat.

Also with the Jedi's second encounter with Darth Maul, the Council had thought that the Sith had indeed returned and if the Chosen One prophecy held any weight, it wouldn't be a bad idea to believe Qui-Gon if he was just murdered by what he discovered.

 

Gah. You beat me to it.

 

What do you mean by that?

You don't know that.

 

Isn't allowing an attachment-prone person into the ranks of the Jedi risky to the Republic? Someone who is apt to shirk his/her duty in favor of his/her attachments?

I mean no one said it in the movie. There's no dramatic conflict given to the council in the movie that would allow the casual moviegoer to understand why they are changing their minds all of a sudden. "Bringing Balance to the Force" is so vague. Why would someone automatically assume that requires training him as a Jedi? Qui-Gon's insistence might be enough if he was painted as someone loyal to the council, like Obi-Wan. But he was painted more as someone who marched to the beat of his own drum.

I guess I can buy the reasoning that if Qui-Gon was right about the Sith, he's probably right in his intuition that training the Chosen One as a Jedi is the best way to go about helping the Prophecy be fulfilled. I guess the council, inspired by the gamble Amidala took with her planet, decided to gamble on Qui-Gon's intuition. And lost.

 

To the Republic? No, I think that's taking it out of proportion, specially from the Jedi's point of view. It would be a risk to himself as a Jedi.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

They postponed their decision, it was not set in stone:

"Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later." - Yoda

"Now is not the time for this." - Mace Windu

His feats during the battle of Naboo, Qui-Gon's death and the promise Obi-Wan made, and/or the confirmation that the Sith have returned (which connects with the prophecy and the potential of the Force being out of balance) probably helped change the mind of those that had doubts about him being trained as a Jedi.

 

That's essentially the case. The two events were enough for the Council to change their minds about him, save for Yoda.

And as we see with Luke, it doesn't matter. What matters is what the Jedi takes away from their training. Luke was able to overcome the darkness within himself because he was raised by the Lars and because Palpatine didn't get his meat hooks into Luke until he was much more emotionally mature.

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the chosen one, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999

To face the Dark Lord, Anakin needed to be trained. The thing is that when Anakin finally fulfills his destiny, it is due to his love for his son than it is a duel to the death. Had he not turned, then he would need his Jedi training to overcome Palpatine.

 

But I would think since the Republic rely on the Jedi to keep the peace, it's a risk to the Republic as well to have an unstable Jedi working for it.

I'm not suggesting it is. I'm suggesting that if something isn't alluded to in a fictional narrative, there's no reason to assume it's true, unless it would just be implausible otherwise.

"He is to be trained then?"
"No. He will not be trained."
They made a decision and then recanted it. "Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later" reads as "Now that we have disapproved of his training, we'll decide what to do with him later."

Unless you mean to say that Mace was speaking for himself and not the council, which seems implausible.





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It's up to the Jedi (Council) to determine if a Jedi is adequate for a certain mission. The risk is with them.

I'm not. You were the one who made the claim.

I mean that their decision was not set in stone, therefore there is nothing strange about them changing their mind.

 

There was risk before Anakin. There was risk with Luke. There will be risk with the next Jedi to come up. Risk is everywhere. The Council didn't get this at the time. That's why they're dead now. They didn't change and adapt. Luke is the end result of what Yoda and Obi-wan learned from Qui-gon and their mistakes.

The Council was not going to train him, which after protesting, Qui-gon stated that he was going to train Anakin on his own without their consent. This then leads to Mace saying that they'll go over it again, after the Naboo mission has been completed. Obi-wan then promises Qui-gon to train Anakin regardless of the Council. Once they've gotten an accounting from Obi-wan about what happened and the others, the Council rethought their earlier position.

 

If they were training Anakin exclusively to fulfill the Prophecy and destroy the Sith, there would be no risk to the Republic. But they trained him, this attachment-prone person to function like every other Jedi, as a peacekeeper for the Republic, thus incurring risk to the Republic as well as to the Jedi. Risks like Anakin ordering a clone trooper to slow down for Padme when there's a potential opportunity to end the war by speeding up is a definitely a risk to the Republic that the Jedi are taking. It's not just themselves.

I didn't say you were.

If you make a decision and then change, set in stone or not, there's got to be something that accounts for why you changed it. All I'm suggesting is that the movie doesn't make the reason clear, thus my asking what a plausible reason might be.

 

Dooku was raised in the traditional manner and he still turned to the dark side. Ergo, it didn't matter how it happened. What mattered was what the Jedi does with their training and their emotions.

Actually, it did.

1. Qui-gon says that the Sith are back, the Council says that's impossible.

2. Qui-gon tells the Council about Anakin, they are skeptical.

3. The prophecy states that the boy is the one who will bring balance by eliminating the Sith.

4. Anakin destroyed the Federation ship, something the Council knows of. Qui-gon was killed in a Lightsaber duel. Something only a Jedi or a Sith can accomplish.

Conclusion, the Jedi Council believe Anakin might be the Chosen One and that the Sith are indeed back. That's all that was required to change their minds.

 

A lot was currently at play, as was mentioned with the revelations that came with the aftermath of the Battle of Theed. The Council seemed like they could barely reach reach a verdict during the first meeting, and even afterwards, Yoda was still doubtful.

If I were too assume, I'd say the resurgence of the Sith lent more credit to Qui-Gon's accounts, and Anakin's performance in the battle (with little training) went on to prove his potential. The Council just realized it'd be better to have Anakin under the watchful eye of the Jedi Order, as opposed to risking him turning to the Dark Side.

 

And what they do with their training and their emotions is influenced by their life circumstances. I'm not saying it's impossible to be successful with someone who's starting off on the wrong foot (Luke), nor am I saying that it's impossible for someone starting off on the right foot to fail (Dooku). Hold'em players can win show downs with a seven deuce and lose them with a pair of Aces. I'm just saying it's not likely. When you start off on the wrong foot, as with Anakin and as with Luke, the risk is much much higher. From the Jedis' point of view, Anakin was like a suited 45 dealt at the beginning of a tournament when stacks are pretty much even. Luke was like a suited 45 dealt to a short stack with the blinds going up. There are few reasons to fold in the Luke situation and many reasons to fold in the Anakin situation. There needed to be a clearer reason for the council to play the hand, but you say the following is a clear reason:

The council did an extensive examination of Anakin before deciding to disapprove his training. There was no doubt he had great Force abilities and potential. They knew of his astronomical midichlorian count. The fact that he blew up a starship (accidentally no less) does not add any information to what they already knew about him when they made that first decision. The point Yoda kept harping on had nothing to do with Anakin's power. It had to do with Anakin's fear. Not atypical for a normal nine year old, but very atypical for a nine year old padawan That's the point Yoda kept stressing. This was a bad hand in their game. Anakin did not have the appropriate psychological make-up to undergo their training. The Chosen One the boy may be, but it's irrelevant to admission into the Jedi Order. The return of the Sith only supports the idea of him being the Chosen One, not the idea that the Chosen One should be trained as a Jedi.

The only thing supporting the idea of Anakin being trained was Qui-Gon. Somewhere between their meeting on Coruscant and the knighting of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the council convened and decided that for one reason or another it was now best to trust Qui-Gon's judgement. Why this is so is anyone's guess.




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YODA
Confer on you, the level of Jedi
Knight the Council does. But agree on
you taking this boy as your Padawan
learner, I do not.

OBI-WAN
Qui-Gon believed in him. I believe
in Qui-Gon.

YODA
The Chosen One the boy may be;
nevertheless, grave danger I fear in
his training.

OBI-WAN
Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word.
I will train Anakin. Without the
approval of the Council if I must.

YODA
Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you.
Need that, you do not. Agree, the
council does. Your apprentice, young
Skywalker will be.

 

I always thought it was because the Sith reappeared. The Sith seeming to come back and a possible Chosen One being found at the same time -- seems a bit too convenient to be a coincidence.

 

It isn't a coincidence, but it doesn't mean the Chosen One has to be a Jedi.

 

Sure, but I think the Jedi might have wanted him on their side regardless.

 

So, in other words, if they don't train him, the Sith are liable to? I could buy that.

 

The Council was aware of Anakin's power, but based on what he said, they realized that his actions were not those of a "happy little accident", but that he was guided by the Force in such a way that it was staggering. The Council and Obi-wan both understood this and it is why he agreed to be trained. Yoda's rejection was based on a thousand years worth of training and indoctrination. Methods that worked well the last time the Sith were fought, but needed to be altered going forward. Remember, Yoda didn't want to train Luke either. Too old. Had attachments. Had fear and anger. Was reckless. He even rubs it in Obi-wan's face after Luke takes off for Bespin.

He does if he is to face the Sith in battle. Like I said, if Anakin told Palpatine to go **** himself, he would need his Jedi training to face him. Just like Luke needed his Jedi training to face Vader and Sidious. Anakin's turn wasn't a foregone conclusion. He could have been a Jedi, or he could do it as a Sith turning back to the light.

 

That's a valid guess, but it's still a guess. It is by no means made clear in the movie. The movie makes it appear as "a happy little accident". At no time during the battle of Theed did anything ever suggest that Anakin's destruction of the ship was being guided by the Force. If that was made clear, we wouldn't have all these annoying complaints about it being an accident from PT whiners.

I know. Luke was just as high a risk as Anakin. However it's easy to see why Yoda trained him in spite of the risk: desperation. I guess my poker analogy from earlier flew over your head?

But who says he has to face the Sith in battle? Maybe he could just blow up a Death Star or something (learn what location contains the Sith and destroy it). That seemed to have been taken care of by non-Jedi the second time around. Maybe he could poison a Sith's drink. There are many ways to kill a Sith without become a Jedi or a Sith.

 

As it is made clear earlier in the film, Anakin was already a great pilot who had done something no other human had done, which was be a podracer. His connection to the Force was great and he was able to do more than anyone else could. He could only do more with time and training. He wins the Boonta Eve because Qui-gon gave him a bit of Jedi instruction and that was enough for him. This carried over into the Battle of Naboo. The reason people complained was due to Anakin's age and the things that he said. That's why the infamous "Phantom Edit" cut out most of Anakin's dialogue during that part of the film, making it seem like he was doing all of that intentionally and not "accidentally".

Not to mention that Qui-gon said that nothing happens by chance and Obi-wan would say that there is no such thing as luck.

No, I got it. I'm making a point that the Jedi Council were willing to take a chance because of who Anakin could very well be.

Considering that they A) managed to avoid being wiped out a thousand years ago and B) were difficult to find, means that the only solution was to confront them once they were known.