CT Why did the Emperor call the Lightsaber a Jedi's Weapon?

Yeah, I think especially with the expression on Dooku's face it was more like swatting flies - *zap* take that you amateur - rather than actually trying to kill him or even cause him extensive pain.

 

I think the practical answer is that GL hadn't thought it out entirely.

However, if you want an in-universe answer, this is my take. Palpatine, by this point, has gotten so powerful he simply doesn't need a lightsaber anymore, but Jedi, no matter their power, always use a lightsaber. He looks at a lightsaber with disdain as if using one is beneath him.

 

Well also why would Sidious need a saber for? Who in the OT was he fighting? He tasked Vader with hunting down the remaining Jedi to kill them. But it is not to say he didn't have one either. Siths as well as Jedi BOTH use lightsabers. It is part of their craft and studies. The Sith and Jedi have battled over generations, either with each other or separate. Just like a Samurai wields a Katana, they are also trained in other forms of combat. Both with weapons and hand to hand combat. The Jedi/Sith were based on the idea of the Samurai. So whether or not Sidious had a saber hidden or not in ROTJ, knowing what we know of him now I don't think he thought as the saber to be beneath him. And we see that Sidious in the PT talked about knowing ALL aspects of the force, both light and dark side.

 

Neither will win, as demonstrated by Dooku and Yoda in E2. Dooku tried his little Sith bag of tricks but then, as he said, it became obvious that their "contest" would not be decided by their knowledge of the force.

 

I think the idea that Yoda was beyond the use of a lightsaber was actually preserved a little bit by the prequels. He has a purely Force-based duel with Dooku before they're both compelled to take out their lightsabers because of their evenly matched abilities. If Yoda was fighting a run-of-the-mill darksider or some droids, he wouldn't need a lightsaber. Even in TCW, he only resorts to using a lightsaber because he's fighting an entire army of droids. And note that when he confronts Ventress at the end, he defeats her by simply freezing her lightsabers in place with the Force.

 

I really didn't like the PT construct of a Jedi vs Sith battle best being decided by lightsabers - I would have thought the opposite would have been the case. A lightsaber battle can only decide so much, and once they've tested every skill with what really is just a sword, they then have to go to more advanced techniques of combat involving the very environment around them - electromagnetism, wind, fire etc. Palps did resort to throwing chairs at Yoda in ROTS once the saber battle was clearly going nowhere.

Luke's first training involved a lightsaber, which would suggest that it's the most basic form of training. Despite early drafts of ESB and ROTJ giving both Yoda and Palps lightsabers, the idea was turfed both times, and the lasting impression among audiences was that both these Masters were beyond using such weapons.

 

Making a lightsaber seems to be equated with the last step of training.

Yoda, one short film ago, was adamant that Luke had to complete the training before he left. After Luke had constructed his saber, Yoda conceded that Luke was ready enough (well, that plus surviving Luke's own version of The Trials).

Earlier in ESB, Vader said "You have constructed a new lightsaber ... your skills are complete." This seems intended to address any lingering doubt the reader might have about the degree of Luke's readiness for this encounter.

When Palpatine says "A Jedi's weapon," it is like he, too, is admitting that the Jedi training is over, though he does go on to intimate that Dark Side training is still available.

I feel they should have left the saber construction scene in there, given the importance they have attached to this act. I always liked the fact that Luke got the parts from Kenobi's old hut, and that the new saber bore some resemblance to Kenobi's old model.

 

In TCW though - it's the first step - that marks a youngling ready to become a Padawan.

Odd decision - but "your skills are complete" still works - it's just that it's an early skill that got missed out, and now has been proven to have been gained.

 

Yoda and the Emperor weren't originally meant to have lightsabers.

Originally in ROTS Palpatine used the force to grab Anakin's Lightsaber and used that but the scenes were reshot.

 

Actually, both of them were - Yoda has a lightsaber duel with Obi-Wan's ghost in the first draft of ESB, the Emperor has a lightsaber concealed in his robe in the revised rough draft of ROTJ. In both cases, however, the idea was abandoned until the PT.

 

Agree with what you are saying but there has always been something that confused me and it may be because I am "mis-remembering". The Shaak-Ti thing...there is her deleted scene death, there is her video game death, but didn't Anakin kill her upon his return to the temple with the troopers in the RotS novelization? Or am I thinking of another Jedi?

 

The fact that neither Sidious or Yoda have 'sabres in the OT is important to me. It means that they were beyond needing them to define them. They use other means to face their obstacles. The PT jars this by giving them the energy weapons. It reads incongruous. I'd say given how RotJ is presented in the filmed cuts that at the time Sith weren't yet pegged as the supposed polar opposite of a Jedi yet, story-wise. Yes, I know about different drafts and such but I'm speaking strictly on what we see.

 

Question for you Cushy:

I am curious - do you interpret Yoda's use of a saber in the PT, then abandoning it in favour of purely the Force by the time of the OT reflect learning a lesson of sorts to you? Or do you simply see it as an inconsistency you'd rather not have been in the first place?

Is this true or just one of those urban legends? That sounds.... extremely strange to me. Why exactly would Yoda and Obi-Wan be fighting and.... how exactly does one duel a ghost?

 

Jon: Thanks for asking. Personally, I read as an inconsistency I rather not see at all. That is because the *transition* from warrior to sage-mystic is not shown. Thus it reads as a glaring distortion of the character. It rather seems they are different characters all together.

 

Isn't it possible that the saber that Palps holds in some ROTJ drafts is something he was holding on to for Vader to use rather than something that he himself used and/or intended to use?

 

I like to believe that maybe in some ways he's grown beyong using the saber, which was initially a Jedi weapon, and maybe even physical fighting in general. Sidious controls entire armies. What need does he have to engage enemies directly? He believes more in the power of his words, his manipulation skills, and possibly his dark sorcery, rather than prowess with the saber. Fighting and dueling is not as it is for Vader an extension and demonstration of his true being.

 

You asked for it:

- Star Wars Sequel, First Draft Screenplay by Leigh Brackett, February 17, 1978
http://starwarz.com/starkiller/the-empire-strikes-back-first-draft-by-leigh-brackett-transcript/

(strike-throughs indicate where typed text has been crossed out, and just in case it's not screamingly obvious, Minch is Yoda)

 

Well.... no offense to Leigh Brackett, but I can sort of understand why Lucas more or less completely did away with 99% of her script

 

It was based on his own outline, though. Exactly what were GL's original ideas and which were Brackett's own creations isn't entirely clear, as the outline isn't available. I've no doubt that he wasn't happy with her actual approach to the story, but he was probably just as critical of the storyline he'd set out, hence why he went with one major change that he may have been toying with in the back of his mind for a few months, rendering one notorious scene in that draft completely redundant:

​

 

I thin the emperor called it that because the sith have a name for their laser swords.

 

Hm
Do you mean that as in they called the weapon a different thing in general, or that they'd flaunt their sabers while saying, "I'd like you to meet my cute little saber Shiro, say hi Shiro!" while swinging it about trying to maim their opponent?

 

I was thinking of the movies as they were shot and completed.

In Empire Yoda didn't have a lightsaber in his cloak and in Return Palpatine didn't have one up his sleeve.

It's fair point though, I didn't recall Minch/Yoda having a lightsaber fight in the original draft.

 

As far as the early drafts are concerned, it's always worth acknowledging that they were once considered to wield lightsabers, as the abandoning of the idea in both cases speaks volumes. It's also perhaps telling that even in these early drafts, Minch/Yoda doesn't actually own a lightsaber (he uses Luke's), and Palpatine doesn't use his in ROTJ, he gives it to Vader.

It doesn't contradict the PT or really undermine it - if anything, it just emphasises how much things had changed in twenty years for both of the most powerful Masters, and perhaps how little it had for Vader, who had been reduced to a robotic killer, a mere shadow of what he might have become.

 

I guess if you wanna take the technical answer out of "Lucas was never 100% sure where he was going with the Sith" out, then I'd say it's because the Sith have many more methods of weaponry, their force powers are much more aggressive than a Jedi's. A Jedi's lightsaber is for defense and it's an elegant weapon, usually meant to injure a foe so as to not cause a fatality.

But seriously, GL just didn't come up with the Sith yet. In the OT, Darth Vader was still a "dark jedi" or "fallen jedi."

 

If every jedi or sith had a nickname for their weapon it would drive me crazy understanding it.