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PT Why did the Jedi Council allow Anakin to be Trained?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by PadawanGussin, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 6, 2017
    Before his death, it was made very clear to Qui Gon that Anakun would not be trained due to his age, attachments and fears.
    Yet after Qui Gons death the counsel abruptly changes their decision and makes Anakin Obi Wans Pafawan.
    Yet nothing really had changed.
    Anakin had talent, that was clear from his podracing etc. His actions at Naboo, while confirming his Force abilities, does not alter the fundamental concerns initially expressed.
    So, what changed ?
    Did the confirmation of a Sith Lord returning cause the Jedi to take a different approach to the possibility of a Choosen One ?
     
  2. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

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    Apr 18, 2013
    The Sith return was confirmed so that prophecy was in play and Anakin could very well be the Chosen One to bring balance to the Force.
     
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  3. Darth Eisner

    Darth Eisner Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Jan 7, 2018
    They were slightly desperate, if you will, to fulfill the prophecy, and Anakin was the answer.
     
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  4. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    The OP makes a good point. This is part of the discussion we have been having in the "Did the Jedi look for Sidious before Geonosis" thread. Literally nothing had changed other than Qui-Gon's death. Qui-Gon stood in the middle of the room and told the Council that he had been attacked and almost killed by the Sith Lord. They didn't believe him so they sent him to investigate further. Then he was killed. And they decided "oh well I guess he was right," without offering any real insight into WHY they think he was all of a sudden right.

    I think guilt from Qui-Gon's death and the thought that if he was right about Maul, perhaps he was right about Anakin was what changed their minds towards training him. This doesn't change the fact that they never mentioned what it was that confirmed that Maul was a Sith.
    I doubt that in 24hrs they went from not believing in the prophecy to being "desperate" to fulfill it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2018
  5. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 12, 2017
    I think it was an attempt at damage limitation on the part of the Council. Obi Wan was very clear that he would train Anakin "Without the approval of the Council if I must".

    Yoda realised that the trauma stemming from the loss of his master at the hands of a powerful new enemy had galvanised Obi Wan's determination to train Anakin.

    If Obi Wan were to have taken Anakin as a Padawan without the guidance of the Council and his fellow Jedi, the consequences may have been disastrous. A troubled child with the potential to become the most powerful Jedi in history being trained by a newly minted Jedi Knight with a sizeable chip on his shoulder would have set some serious alarm bells ringing.

    Therefore, the Council decided to allow Obi Wan to train Anakin under their auspices. They done this in order to monitor and control the situation. Perhaps they were also motivated by the prospect of an exceptionally powerful young Jedi (possibly the chosen one) to combat the newly-emerged threat from the Sith. Obi Wan was also recognised as a significant talent (having faced and defeated a Sith), so I imagine the Council wanted to keep him in the fold.
     
  6. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 19, 2016
    My assumption is there initial belief that the Sith were extinct led them to dismiss the idea he was the chosen one, meaning they had no reason to treat him as special.
    When Quigon died, and Mauls presence was revealed they now needed a savior to bring balance, and had to at least acknowledge the possibility it was him.
    So they created an exception to their age rule in hopes Anakin would destroy the Sith.
    Not to mention it was Quigons last request.
     
  7. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Sep 6, 2017
    It was QG who told the counsel that he would take Anakin as his Padawan aganst their wishes.
    Obi Wan continued to arguee with QG before they returned to Naboo.
    Yoda was clearly still aganst Anakins training at the end of TPM as it was aganst his better judgement.
    The only diologe we heard from Obi Wan was at QG funeral when he told Anakin that the counsel had agreed to Anakun being trained and "you will be a Jedi".
     
  8. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    I agree. It was a combination of the Sith's return potentially confirming Anakin's status as the Chosen One, and the fact that they knew Obi-Wan was probably going to train him no matter what.
     
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  9. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No. Maul's presence was revealed when Qui-Gon explained Maul's presence to the Council.

    "He was well trained in the Jedi arts. My only conclusion can be that it was a Sith Lord."
     
  10. ConservativeJedi321

    ConservativeJedi321 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Mar 19, 2016
    I meant more specifically the presence of the Sith,
    When Quigon told the council about Maul they were skeptical that he was a Sith,
    When Maul killed Quigon there was no doubt left.
     
  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    That's what doesn't make sense. I guess "just because" is the ultimate answer. But in-universe it's incredibly stupid move by the Jedi Council. It's like your mechanic telling you your brakes are out and you're going to crash, and you just ignore him and say "yeah well I'll test it out." And then, AFTER someone in your family crashes and dies you decided "oh wow I guess I did need brakes."
     
  12. Dannik Jerriko

    Dannik Jerriko Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 12, 2017
    I respectfully disagree with this assertion. Qui Gon advises the Council of his intention to train Anakin, but he does not state an intention to do so without the permission of the Council. At the end of this scene, Qui Gon and Obi Wan are dispatched to Naboo with Anakin as Qui Gon's ward. At that point, Yoda states "Train him not. Take him with you, but train him not!"

    Yoda also stated that Anakin's fate would be decided at a later date. I believe that Qui Gon hoped to convince the Council to accept Anakin into the ranks of the Jedi. Indeed, prior to their departure, Qui Gon tells Obi Wan" The Council will decide Anakin's future...that should be enough for you." Hardly the words of someone in stark defiance of the Council's authority on this matter.

    Don't get me wrong, I think that had Qui Gon lived and the Council continued to forbid Anakin's training, Qui Gon may well have defied their wishes. However, Qui Gon perished and the Council were faced with a defiant and headstrong Obi Wan determined to train an exceptionally gifted child with potentially disastrous consequences.

    For me, the dialogue between Obi Wan and Yoda prior to Qui Gon's funeral is highly revealing. Yoda first states "But agree on you taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not." After Obi Wan states his intention to defy the Council, Yoda then states "Agree, the Council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be."

    My point is that Yoda first states that he does not personally agree, he then states that the Council will allow Obi Wan to take on Anakin as his Padawan. Perhaps the Council concluded that, as much as they disagreed, Obi Wan would train Anakin regardless. They may have then decided that the best way to keep tabs on this situation was to bring Anakin into the Jedi Order.

    I think that, before Qui Gon's death, the Council were dealing with a headstrong, but grounded and experienced Jedi. The Council hoped to reason with Qui Gon and he, in turn, hoped to convince the Council. After Qui Gon's death, the Council were faced with a younger, traumatised and openly defiant Jedi who was determined to fulfil his master's dying wish.
     
  13. boonjj

    boonjj Jedi Knight star 1

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    Jan 21, 2016
    I think they let him in because by that time they were beyond doubt that the Sith had returned, and turning a very powerful force user into a Jedi - who also just may be the child that fulfills the prophecy - was very much in their interests.

    It was also another example of how Palpatine's pressure caused the Jedi to chip away at their own idealist principles in light of more pragmatic action, just like we later saw in AOTC when the Jedi conceded to using a Clone Army.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2018
  14. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    ^ It was also two-fold. They also had a newly minted Jedi Knight who had just defeated a Sith Lord, just lost his beloved master, openly saying he’d train this boy with or without approval of the Council. It’d be a very risky and dangerous gamble to have Obi-Wan train an unsanctioned pupil, and that’s not including the whole ‘holy crapbaskets the Sith are back!!!’ deal. They probably felt that if they had stuck to their earlier decisions, the Sith could easily manipulate Obi-Wan and Anakin somehow.

    This was their way of damage control and keeping an eye on both Obi-Wan and Anakin.
     
  15. Gamiel

    Gamiel Force Ghost star 6

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    Dec 16, 2012
    If I remember right so did the novelization say that Anakin's actions during the Battle of Naboo (where he, with no fighter pilot experience, took out the Trade Federations mother ship) was seen as a sign by must of the council of that he was the Chosen One, and therefore should be trained in the Jedi ways.
     
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  16. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    So MEASURABLE scientific evidence in his blood AND being the only human to not only race pods but WINNING in ecstatic fashion wasn't enough; but randomly by dumb luck destroying a ship was what sealed the deal for them?
     
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  17. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    It was probably the deciding factor. Plus, you’re also forgetting the whole “Qui-Gon dying and his apprentice being openly defiant to Yoda” and “the Sith are legit back” thing.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
  18. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Qui-Gon told them the Sith were back..when he was alive.
     
  19. darth-skycrawler

    darth-skycrawler Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 7, 2001
    All the reasons have been addressed by others.
    1. Sith were confirmed to be back making the chosen one needed.
    2. Obi Wan, a Jedi with potential to be one of the greatest, was threatening to leave the order and train Anakin anyway.
    3. Anakin had proven himself heroic.
    4. A Sith Lord or apprentince was out there, who may have tried to corrupt the incredibly powerful Skywalker as a new apprentice.
     
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Again, Qui-Gon had already told them the Sith were back and that a Sith Lord had almost killed him.

    Obi-Wan didn't mention leaving the Order and training Anakin anyway until the Council had already made their decision. It had no bearing on their decision.
    He hadn't already proven himself heroic as the only human podracer to EVER win boonta eve in a deathrace to help Qui-Gon/Padem?
    Qui-Gon had already informed them of this, they didn't seem to care.
     
  21. darth-skycrawler

    darth-skycrawler Jedi Master star 2

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    Aug 7, 2001
    They didn't completely believe he was correct. They wanted further investigation. Mace even says he does not believe the Sith could have returned without the Jedi knowing. It's at the end of the film where they say there is no doubt the mysterious warrior was a Sith.
    Obi Wan said he would train Anakin with or without permission. You are right Obi Wan had never threatened to leave the order, but going against the council and training an apprentice does not look good. I don't see how you can keep Obi Wan in the order when he is continually disobeying the council by training Anakin.
    He had, but even more so. He was now notable on the galactic scene, I imagine. The Chancellor of the Republic was giving him special attention for his deeds. All these reasons helped.
    As mentioned they weren't sure Qui Gon was correct, it was only at the end of the film where they are certain it's a Sith.
     
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  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    With no proof other than his say so. That wouldn't hold up in a court of law and any scientist would tell you that you need more proof.

    No, he proved himself because destroyed the Federation ship by trusting his instincts. Combined with the confirmation of the Sith's return.

    They did care. They were skeptical about his conclusions. They doubted that the Sith were back because they would know it and they doubt Anakin is the Chosen One, just because he has a high Midichlorian count.
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Qui-Gon already told them that. They were wrong. And he died because of their inaction. Maybe you have an excuse if it's someone else telling you, but a Jedi Master stood in front of them and told them he was attacked by a Sith Lord.

    Not according to Qui-Gon. They were wrong...again. Not to mention Anakin's feat in the podrace was PURE skill. His actions in the battle of Naboo were luck. Unless he lied to them and told them he knowingly flew into the hanger so he could attack those fuel storage containers, they are aware of this.

    Well they were wrong. And Qui-Gon died because of it. Stupid decision.
    Well the only thing that had changed was that the guy who had told them he was almost killed by a Sith Lord was killed by the Sith Lord. So they still have no evidence and nothing has changed other than him being dead.

    To play devil's advocate, at the time the double-bladed lightsaber was considered a Sith weapon, crafted by Exar Kun. So the one detail that can really be argued is that his expert use of a Sith weapon is what put it over the top for them. But then again, at the time Maul's tattoos were supposed to be Sith tattoos that immediately identified him as well.

    According to the film's dialogue, Qui-Gon ALSO didn't follow the Jedi Code but was allowed to remain and active Jedi Master.

    The Chancellor gave him a slight remark at the celebration. In AOTC nothing implies that he was now famous for his actions at Naboo. In fact, if you remember, when Padme herself went before the Senate to tell them about the situation on Naboo, nobody cared. In such a large galaxy skirmishes happen all the time. How could he now be notable for being a combatant in a conflict that, according to the Senate, didn't happen?

    I'm not arguing about the dialogue in the scene. I know. What I'm saying is their logic was moronic and nothing had changed other than Qui-Gon was now dead because of their inaction. Odd that his death is what it took for them to believe him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  24. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Host, PT Interview Thread star 10 VIP - Game Host

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Most likely as a last request of Qui Gon.
     
  25. MoffJacob

    MoffJacob Jedi Knight star 2

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    Dec 25, 2015
    a) they did not know Palpatine, the new Chancellor, was the Dark Lord of the Sith, and already committed to turn Anakin to the DS
    b) the huge midichlorian potential of the boy, confirmed by the destruction of the Trade Federation Flagship. A boy like that HAD to be trained and embraced by the Jedi, considering that the Sith had made a return (the Maul incident)

    the real tragedy is that, like Yoda said, with a clouded grey future (the Chosen One was born to bring balance, no matter how, not necessarily to become a Jedi Champion), Anakin had no real allegiance. As we all know, several galactic circumstances and Jedi errors pushed him to the DS...
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018