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PT Why did the Jedi Council allow Anakin to be Trained?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by PadawanGussin, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. Kuro

    Kuro Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2015
    The development of Anakin Skywalker and the Jedi led to what would prove to be a contentious addition on George Lucas’s part- the introduction of midi-chlorians as the means through which living beings felt the Force. Some fans felt that this scientific approach diminished the more spiritual aspects of the Force, but actually, this was necessary. Training Anakin was supposed to be against the wishes of the Jedi, but if Qui-Gon Jinn, and later Obi-Wan Kenobi, was to train him despite that, he would need to have more than mere intuition to force the Council to accept this. The introduction of midi-chlorians presented indisputable evidence that Anakin was truly a unique example of Force potential. Lucas didn’t add them because he wanted to explain the Force. He added them because he needed something that would force the Council to act despite their instincts that Anakin was dangerous, that his raw potential was so great that without training, he would likely become a threat.
     
  2. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2006
    This.

    Or- Any decisions made after late night council meetings whilst hopped up on death sticks should be deeply reconsidered the following day.
     
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  3. Your Pal Friendpatine

    Your Pal Friendpatine Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Dec 29, 2017
    It was required by the plot. Also they needed new blood for the youngling tee-ball team, the Sith younglings fielded a strong squad that year.
     
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    They were so desperate to fulfill the prophecy that they were smugly confident that the Sith, named as being destroyed in the prophecy, were already extinct. (?)
     
  5. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    They had already learned the Sith had returned by this point. The funeral and the whole “always two there are” talk happens immediately (or so) after Obi-Wan becomes Anakin’s master.
     
  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    And they get the cart before the horse.

    Instead of investigating how the Sith (or rather, the one the council assume to be a Sith just because the fight on Naboo lasts a wee bit longer than the one on Tatooine and leaves one of the two Jedi dead ) came to be suddenly non-extinct (or rather, how that assumption could be made with any confidence at all), they immediately train Anakin.

    If they were so concerned about the prophecy

    a) the matter of Sith extinction would have been a priority for the Jedi over the past 1000 years.

    b) they would have had a "chosen one" in their history already if the Sith were no more. The chosen one would have already exterminated them

    c) balance to the force would not be such an obscure or abstract concept. The presence of Sith and the balance achieved by Sith extinction would both be detectable. The basis for creating the prophecy and believing in it would be entirely concomitant with this.

    What it boils down to is what characterises most ancient religious dogmas that still endure. Pretending to know what's going on at all times.
     
  7. CaraJinn

    CaraJinn Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Jan 8, 2018
    I agree with @Dannik Jerriko in the reasons he's giving.

    After Naboo they realized that one of their padawans had been the first one to defeat a Sith in over a milennia. Said padawan suddenly insisted on training Anakin as a result of his dying master's wish.

    I guess the reasoning must have been something like this:

    "Oh, ***t. We've just lost one of the order's masters. His padawan is the first one to defeat a sith in thousand years and he's claiming that now he will train this young scamp from the dustball. If we still refuse the request he's stubborn enough to leave the order with the boy. And - we most likely have another sith on the loose in the galaxy. And that sith may be looking for a new apprentice soon... If the boys leave the temple, he will have two candidates. Obi-Wan has proven to be strong, and the boy has the highest midichlorian count ever and he destroyed the Trade Federation's ship outside Naboo. Maybe we should think twice about our rejection?

    OK, let's keep the boys inside the temple. At least we will then have some control over the sit(h)uation. "

    And the decision was finally made, despite Yoda's personal doubts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  8. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    "The boy has exceptional skills," said Mace Windu.

    I think the Council outvoted Yoda, or perhaps Yoda himself was curious about the boy.

    A question that should be asked though is why did the Council accede to Obi Wan training him?
     
  9. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Obi-wan was going to train him regardless of what the Council decided. They decided it would be better if the training happened in the Temple, where they could keep an eye on Anakin rather than on some other world like Lothal or Jedha. And what makes you think that the Jedi didn't investigate how the Sith survived anyway? We already know in "Destiny" that Yoda is aware of who Darth Bane was, since he was the one who allowed the Sith to survive.

    The Jedi were aware of the prophecy, but believed that it was something that could not have come true due to the future always being in motion and that the Sith were believed to have been eliminated. The Jedi of that era were confident that the Sith had been destroyed through their own hand, or by getting them to turn on one another. The prophecy had become an object lesson in how to interpret Jedi visions. Only afterwards with Yoda realizing the Force is going out of balance, the return of the Sith and the appearance of the Chosen One, do things start to come together.

    Because it was Qui-gon's dying wish and they chose to honor it.
     
  10. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No one in the film says this. You just made that up. We are never given a reason why, though it is hinted at that because Maul was confirmed to be a Sith, Anakin might possibly be the Chosen One.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
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  11. firesaber

    firesaber Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 5, 2006
    What you say is true, from a certain point of view. It was Qui-Gons dying wish. Obi-Wan made it clear he was going to train him regardless. Yoda ceded the point that he may be the chosen one. While only supposition, better to have him close and guide him than not.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It doesn't have to be said. It's called an implication.
     
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    It was also never implied.
     
  14. The_Phantom_Calamari

    The_Phantom_Calamari Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 10, 2011
    Partially true, perhaps, but the midi-chlorians weren't merely a plot device. They were a reflection of philosophical ideas which had long preoccupied Lucas. From a 1991 anthology called The Meaning of Life: Reflections in Words and Pictures on Why We Are Here:

    https://www.brainpickings.org/2014/03/17/george-lucas-meaning-of-life/
     
  15. bizzbizz

    bizzbizz Jedi Knight star 4

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    Dec 16, 2015
    • sith had returned so the chosen one could end them
    • obi-wan was going to train him no matter what the council said
    • safer to have someone with anakin's potential in the fold then not in the fold and be a chance to be lured to the sith only problem being the sith were closer then they envisioned
     
  16. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2014
    I don't think the midi chlorians ruined anything. It was simply a hint that someone could hold enormous potential. I think frankly the PT still had that spiritual feel. E.g. the Order 66 scene is sad to see the Jedi Order betrayed and these noble Knights gunned down by their own troopers who simply obey orders. The galaxy betrays them also.

    The Jedi are shown to be mysterious and powerful. The OT still suggested that the Force was stronger with some than others. "The Force runs strong in your family". I feel like this idea of someone can be special to be Star Wars. I don't really like the ST which seems to forget this is a saga about the Skywalkers, and that anyone can use the Force and be better than Palpatine, Yoda, Anakin, Luke, Windu, Obi Wan, etc COMBINED with no heritage, no training, no explanation.

    Yes. I don't see why the Council didn't train him. Why Obi Wan?
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No, it is. The Council agrees that the boy is to be trained and that he will be allowed to train him. They know that he has promised Qui-gon. They are honoring his promise. They know that the mysterious warrior was a Sith now and the boy has demonstrated skills beyond normal measure. If you cannot connect the dots, that's on you.

    Because Qui-gon told him to train the boy and he told the Council that he will train the boy, with or without their help, because he gave his word that he would. Ergo, they opted to let him train the boy.
     
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  18. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Except no one says it. Your just making it up. There are no dots to connect regarding Qui-Gon's promise.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    OBI-WAN: "Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin. Without the approval of the Council if I must."

    YODA: "Qui-Gon's defiance I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree, the Council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be."

    He's already told the Council of Qui-gon's dying wish and he reiterates it again. The Council agrees with Qui-gon's dying wish. That's why implying means.

    Imply: strongly suggest the truth or existence of (something not expressly stated)
     
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    There was nothing in that dialogue about the Council honoring Qui-Gon's promise. Not even hinting towards it. It wasn't even mentioned that he told it to the Council, he may have only told Yoda.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  21. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    That is what imply means.
     
  22. HevyDevy

    HevyDevy Jedi Master star 4

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    Apr 13, 2011
    "Agree with you the Council does" would seem to imply they were aware of Obi-Wan's intent to honour Qui-Gon's wish though.
     
  23. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Perhaps. But nothing in any of the films implies they were acting in honor of Qui-Gon's wishes. In the eyes of the Jedi Qui-Gon simply became one with the force. "Miss them do not, mourn them do not."

    And there was no implication in the dialogue. An implication would have been:

    "The Council knows of your promise to Qui-Gon. Your apprentice the boy will be." - In this example it is made CLEAR that the Council was aware of his promise, and thus is seems to have played a role in the decision making process. As I said earlier, in the actual film Obi-Wan discusses it with Yoda, but we aren't even sure that the rest of the Council is aware that he is acting on merely on the motivation of fulfilling a promise to a dead man. I'm sure the Jedi would have been wiped out much earlier if their motto was to capitulate to the last wishes of anyone who died.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  24. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The Jedi philosophy of letting things go implies that training Anakin purely for sentimental reasons of "honoring" Qui Gon is something prohibited or at the very least discouraged by their code.
     
  25. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Once again, Yoda says that Council agrees with Obi-wan's intention to train Anakin. They would know this because he would have told them that Qui-gon had asked him to do it, before dying. So they are honoring his last wish, instead of assigning someone else to train the boy.

    Which is no different from saying, "Agree, the Council does. Your apprentice, young Skywalker will be." The Council agrees with Obi-wan's intent to train Anakin.

    Letting go of an attachment to a person is not the same as honoring a last request. Obi-wan doesn't do this because of sentimentality, but because he believes in Qui-gon's belief in the boy and what he has learned about the space battle, reaffirms that decision. Obi-wan isn't doing this because he's afraid to lose someone. He's not doing this out of jealousy or greed. He's already let go of Qui-gon by the time the Council shows up on Naboo.