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PT Why did the Jedi Council allow Anakin to be Trained?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by PadawanGussin, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    So you think, but it never happens or is stated in the film, that is certain.
    Not according to the film. He justifies his motivation for training Anakin to Yoda as "I gave Qui-Gon my word." So we clearly see he is acting based on the promise, not on some sort of change of heart in terms of what Anakin is.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
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  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    But it was the Jedi's wisdom and Yoda's anticipation of danger that prompted them to reject Anakin.

    Irrationally reversing that position out of sympathy for sentimental reasons sounds totally incompatibile with the Jedi code.

    I never said anything about jealousy or greed. But why the sudden need to do what Qui-Gon wanted because he's dead. Sounds like the Jedi's decision making and judgement is inordinately sensitive to their reaction to people dying.

    Why else would they reverse their position in order to honour Qui Gon's if they were not struggling to cope with his loss? i.e. Not letting him go.

    Instead of doing a u-turn they should have accepted that Qui Gon's death was a part of his life and not let it override their collective wisdom which had chosen not to make Anakin a Jedi.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2018
  3. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    I’m still sticking with my opinion of ‘damage control’. It wasn’t about honoring Qui-Gon, it was about finding the best possible solution to a very bad situation. They just lost a Jedi Master to what they learned what’s an actual frickin’ Sith Lord of all people. Obi-Wan is openly defiant, telling Yoda that he’ll train Anakin one way or another. Anakin himself is very strong with the Force. At least with Anakin within their ranks, they could keep an eye on the boy rather than risk him being loose out in the galaxy for the Sith to find and easily convert.

    I mean, still happened anyway, but at least they managed to avert it for thirteen years...
     
  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    That's what an implication is.

    I never said that he didn't. But he also learned of what the boy did during the space battle and how he destroyed the control ship. This is why that he gave him his word that he would do it, but it also matches up to what he said to Luke later on.

    OBI-WAN: "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."

    That's not what I said either. The Jedi realize that the Sith were back now and with the boy's skills and unique origins, they opted to have him trained instead of languishing elsewhere, just on the possibility that he could be the Chosen One. They choose to allow Obi-wan to train him, rather than assign an experienced Jedi Master like Mace Windu or Plo Koon to handle it, since that was his dying wish and they opt to allow it. They put their trust in Qui-gon and they put it in Obi-wan.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    So if it was logical and rational to train Anakin, why invoke "honour" at all?

    The only reason Qui Gon asks Obi-Wan to promise to take personal responsibility is because he has been told by the Jedi council they are not prepared to train him, forcing him to immediately take Anakin as his Padawan instead.

    Strangely, the council, except for Yoda, does reverse their decision but also adopts Qui Gon's less than optimal compromise of skipping the traditional induction proposed only when the council's rejection had forced his hand.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2018
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    The honor is in letting Obi-wan do it, which was his dying wish and not assigning it to someone else.
     
  7. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The honour of defying Jedi convention? A situation Qui Gon was forced into by the decision of the council not to train Anakin at all. Why not give Anakin comprehensive training and not skip his induction, if honouring Qui Gon is their aim.

    If they truly believe it's now desirable to train Anakin, why adopt Qui Gon's compromise.

    You would honour someone's intentions. Not the compromise you forced them into due to your lack of faith in him while he was alive.
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Qui-gon's wish was for Anakin to be trained and since the Council refused to do it, he stated that he would take him on. They only object to him having two Padawans, not the idea that he could train Anakin at all. That the Code forbids having two students and not someone who wasn't raised from birth. With his death, his last wish was for the boy to be trained by Obi-wan, since he couldn't do it himself. Obi-wan insists that he does the training. They honor that wish by allowing it to take place with their blessing and in the Temple.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    How would Qui Gon anticipate that rather than considering him unready to be a knight, the council would suddenly change that position to Obi-Wan being the ideal person to train the chosen one.

    Qui Gon knew it wasn't ideal but he was convinced that Anakin should be trained. So convinced that he advises his Padawan to adopt his defiance of the council, if that's what it took, due to them not granting him formal training by an experienced master to begin with, like all other Jedi before him. Qui Gon got the same raw deal in death regarding Anakin as he was forced to accept in life.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    He didn't know. He was making Obi-wan promise him to train the boy, no matter what the Council decides since they state that his fate would be decided later. He wanted the boy trained and believed in him.

    By that rationale, Luke and Leia got the short end of the stick since they weren't trained the same way.
     
  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    No, that's what an "imagination" is.

    But that didn't have anything to do with his decision based on the discussion he had with Yoda. It was because of the promise.

    That's from ANH. We're talking about TPM. Obi-Wan already knew Anakin was a great pilot before the battle of Naboo when he won Boonta Eve. His actions at the Battle of Naboo were mainly luck.

    No one in the film ever says this. Or even implies it.

    No, they don't. They never mention honoring any wish.

    Yeah I don't think Qui-Gon was being literal when he said "train the boy", as in he didn't specify only Obi-Wan could train him. Qui-Gon thought the Council had banned Anakin's training, in that case he was basically asking Obi-wan to break the Code and train him. But if the Council changed their mind about Anakin I think Qui-Gon would have been fine with a more experienced Jedi Master training Anakin.
     
  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No, that's not. You really don't understand or you're arguing for the sake of arguing.

    It supported his reasoning for his going through with the promise to train him, after earlier saying it was a bad idea.

    No, that's from ROTJ. His actions from the Battle of Naboo weren't luck, since according to Obi-wan, there's no such thing.

    OBI-WAN: "In my experience, there's no such thing as luck."

    He knew that the boy did what he did because he was being guided by the Force. Not because he was lucky.

    Sure it is. They let a newly minted Jedi train someone, who was going to be trained by another Jedi but couldn't, so he made his student promise him to do it.

    That's what implying is.

    No, he was being literal. Now who is making things up? The Code never said that Qui-gon or Obi-wan could train Anakin. The Code forbade one Master training two Padawans.

    QUI-GON: "I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan learner.

    YODA: "An apprentice, you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible, to take on a second."

    MACE WINDU: "The Code forbids it."
     
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Of course. The old "anyone who disagrees with me doesn't understand" argument.

    Is this a non-sequitur? What part of this changes anything that I previously stated?

    This is from ANH. How is it relevant. Are you trying to craft Obi-Wan's mindset in TPM by dialogue from 30 years laters?
    No one in the film says or implies that the Council knows about or is honoring Obi-Wan's promise.

    I'm starting to think you don't know what imply means.

    I didn't mention the Code. What does the Code have to do with what I said?
     
  14. MarcJordan

    MarcJordan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 17, 2014
    Qui Gon to the Council: He is the Chosen One. You must see it.



    Later Yoda says : The Chosen One the boy may be....

    Yoda: Agree with you the Council does.

    MJ
     
  15. Erkan12

    Erkan12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 27, 2013
    Yoda used his influence in the Jedi Council as a Grand Master and let Obi-Wan to train him. He simply didn't want to lose Obi-Wan, because Obi-Wan specifically said he will train him even if Jedi Council disagrees, and Yoda also wanted to honor Qui-Gon's last wish.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2018
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    That's not my argument. You simply don't understand what imply means.

    It explains Obi-wan's motive for keeping that promise and not breaking it.

    Now you're getting it. The dialogue in the OT explains his mindset in the PT. That's the connection I'm talking about. You're looking at it backwards which is why you're having trouble understanding. Obi-wan tells Luke that he was arrogant in thinking he could do better than Yoda. Why does he say this now as an old man? Well, as a young man, he was arrogant. A flaw common in the Jedi of his time. He was arrogant enough to keep a promise that he had no business in keeping and arrogant enough to think that he was good enough to fulfill that promise.

    Same thing with his views on luck. He's fifty eight years old when tells Han that there's no such thing as luck, in his experience. Well, where would that experience come from? It comes from his adventures during the PT era.

    He would have to tell the Council about everything that happened since they weren't there to witness it. And since Yoda doesn't say, "what promise" that means that it was discussed earlier. And is why the Council would agree to letting him train Anakin. Obi-wan wouldn't say, "I'm training Anakin and no one else will do it." He would have to give his reasons for why he would do this.

    What you said was...

    I pointed out that was not what was said in the film. What was said was...

    QUI-GON: "I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan learner.

    YODA: "An apprentice, you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible, to take on a second."

    MACE WINDU: "The Code forbids it."

    Qui-gon knew exactly what was said. The Council didn't object to the idea of training Anakin at all. What they forbid was Qui-gon training Anakin and Obi-wan. They would let him train Anakin otherwise. What they wouldn't do is take part in that training by assigning another Jedi to handle it. You are the one who didn't understand what was being said in the Council meeting.
     
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  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Well apparently you have your own made-up dictionary, so I'm sure your definition of the term differs.
    Yeah he made a promise and he wanted to keep it. That is the motive.

    No he didn't. He just said he was wrong. Your making things up again. Apparently he could instruct just as well as Yoda, since Yoda's padawan ALSO fell to the dark side and became a Sith Lord.
    But he isn't shown doing it. Nor is it given as a reason for the Council's decision.

    No they wouldn't. In fact if you rewatch the film, Mace Windu in plain english tells Qui-Gon that Anakin will not be trained.
     
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  18. Dagobahsystem

    Dagobahsystem Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 25, 2015
    Clouded by the dark side, their prescience was. Bring such a dangerous weapon into their cave, well they should not. Make a grave mistake, they did. Grave indeed.
     
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  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Right and fueling that motive is his arrogance in thinking that he should be the one to do it and not humbly requesting another Jedi do it.

    I didn't make anything up. Yes, Yoda had lost Dooku. But he also had many more successes. This was his first Padawan and he lost him. You're also missing the point that Obi-wan blames himself for what happened with Anakin, since he was the one who trained him. All by himself and he did so as a matter of pride.

    OBI-WAN: "I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy."

    Remember that he puts all the blame on himself the same way that Luke did with Ben.

    OBI-WAN: "I have failed you Anakin. I have failed you."

    LUKE: "I was weak. Unwise."

    That's why it is implied.

    No, he said that they will not train him. Remember, Qui-gon wants him trained.

    MACE: "You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force. You believe it's this boy?"

    QUI-GON: "I don't presume to..."

    YODA: "But you do. Revealed your opinion is."

    QUI-GON: "I request the boy be tested, Master."

    YODA: "Trained as a Jedi you request for him, hmm?"

    QUI-GON: "Finding him was the will of the Force. I have no doubt of that."


    He never stated that he wanted to be the one to train him. Not until later.


    KI-ADI-MUNDI: "The Force is strong with him."

    QUI-GON: "He is to be trained, then?"

    MACE: "No, he will not be trained."

    QUI-GON: "No?"

    MACE: "He is too old."

    QUI-GON: "He is the Chosen One. You must see it."

    YODA: "Clouded this boy's future is."

    QUI-GON: "I will train him, then. I take Anakin as my Padawan Learner."

    YODA: "An apprentice you have, Qui-Gon. Impossible to take on a second."

    MACE: "The Code forbids it."

    Mace later says...

    MACE: "Young Skywalker's fate will be decided later."

    So yes, he was not forbidden to be trained at all. Just that the Council would not assign him a Jedi and they only object to Qui-gon wanting to train him, when he has Obi-wan under his care still.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

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    Sep 2, 2012
    From the way Obi-Wan and Yoda talked at the end of TPM, extrapolated backward, it certainly sounds like no Padawan can be taken without the Council's approval - that, for a Jedi Knight to take a Padawan without the Council's approval, is "defiance".


    Yoda: Confer on you the level of Jedi Knight, the Council does. But agree with your taking this boy as your Padawan learner, I do not!
    Obi-Wan: Qui-Gon believed in him.
    Yoda: The Chosen One, the boy may be. Nevertheless, grave danger, I fear in his training.
    Obi-Wan: Master Yoda, I gave Qui-Gon my word. I will train Anakin... without the approval of the Council, if I must.
    Yoda: Qui-Gon's defiance, I sense in you. Need that, you do not. Agree with you, the Council does. Your apprentice, Skywalker will be.



    The "He is too old" means that no-one, not Qui-Gon, not Obi-Wan, can train Anakin without defying the Council's ruling.

    "He will not be trained" is just a shortening of "We ban everyone in the Jedi Order from taking him as a Padawan"

    "Skywalker's fate will be decided later" - is not his "training fate" it's who will look after him - Qui-Gon has a full-time job as Jedi Master and, while Anakin is his ward - that can't last forever - only until the current crisis is over and the issue can be settled.


    Only once the Battle of Naboo has happened, do the Council rescind their ruling banning Anakin from being taken as a Padawan by anybody. Bringing up Obi-Wan's lack of graduation is just making the point that Qui-Gon has a duty to Obi-Wan and he is failing in it by trying to graduate him early and take Anakin instead - defying the Council is not enough to discourage him - but "failing Obi-Wan" might be - so they remind him of what he's doing.


    Had Obi-Wan been graduated as Knight - the Council would still not have approved Anakin's training, without the events of the Battle of Naboo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  21. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Not according to the films. According to the films he wanted to fulfill his promise to Qui-Gon, and he thought he could instruct as well as Yoda (which he ultimately DID). But you should write a fanfic about your perspective.

    You made up the part about him being arrogant. He never said he was arrogant. He said he thought he could instruct as well as Yoda, and that he felt he was wrong. However when you take into account Yoda's apprentice also became a Sith Lord, he was right.

    I heard if you say something enough times it comes true. Keep it up!

    No, they said he will NOT be trained. How did you provide the quite yourself and yet still get it wrong?
     
  22. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It should be noted that the only objection the order raise to Qui Gon's decisions to take Anakin as his apprentice even if the council don't agree that he should become a Jedi, is that Qui Gon has a padawan at that time. This suggests that Jedi knights are not prohibited from taking on apprentices or learners that are not inducted into the Jedi order. It's only Qui Gon's existing responsibilities that are identified as a barrier to this happening
     
  23. Jester J Binks

    Jester J Binks Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 19, 2016
    There was a recent opening for a replacement Jedi.

    OB1 knew the magic word that Qui Gon forgot.

    Anakin straight up called Yoda out. Fear? I was here blowing up Trade Federation control ships while you were too afraid to even be in the same system as the action.
    [​IMG]

    The Jedi Masters needed somebody to kick around.

    They figured Anakin's mom was perfectly safe, so what could go wrong?
     
  24. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Yoda has other businesses to attend to. He can’t go running after every single planetary issue. You’ve misinterpreted his speech about “fear”; it’s not that Yoda is suddenly afraid of combat, it’s that he was trying to tell Anakin that fixating on his fear, allowing it to consume him would inevitably destroy him. And the next two films happily showed us just that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The first person and at that point the only person that displays a fixation on Anakin's fears is Yoda.

    Behaviour breeds behaviour.