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PT Why did the Jedi Council allow Anakin to be Trained?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by PadawanGussin, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    There is no different perspective. You just repeated what I've been saying.

    Arrogance is a flaw common among Jedi, as Yoda said in AOTC. That arrogance is there in Obi-wan. I never said that he said that he was arrogant. I also pointed out that Obi-wan blames himself for Anakin's fall, because he had believed that his ability to train Anakin was sufficient and that he could do as good a job as Yoda. He's punishing himself because of what happened to Anakin, just as Luke punishes himself for what happened to Ben.

    Because there's a difference in requesting that the Jedi Council train Anakin and Qui-gon Jinn training him.

    It would be an act of defiance, but they cannot stop Obi-wan short of locking him up or killing him. Same with Qui-gon. However, the Council never states that not even Qui-gon can train Anakin, just that he cannot do so right now with Obi-wan. That's why he tries to pawn him off and say that he's ready.

    Exactly what I've been saying.
     
  2. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    In the film Obi-Wan states that he wants train Anakin to fulfill his promise to Qui-Gon. He offers no other motives.

    The Jedi Council denied Anakin to be trained as a Jedi. Pretty simple and straightforward.

    Not according to the films. Obi-Wan is quite humble in his apology to Qui-Gon in TPM; in his praise of Anakin in ROTS; and in his description of "thinking he could instruct as well as Yoda" since he in fact did.
     
    Martoto77 likes this.
  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Qui Gon's option to leapfrog Anakin into being his apprentice is due to the council's decision that he should not be formally trained, i.e. induction as a youngling under Yoda's intitial tutelage, deemed necessary to become a fully trained Jedi knight.

    Because his discovery was snubbed by the council, and he had no knowledge of what happened to the droid control ship, Qui Gon felt compelled to beseech Obi Wan to go around the council and make sure the boy was trained regardless. A far from ideal situation but better than nothing.

    Following Naboo though, the council reverse their position on Qui Gon's would be apprentice. But they don't honour what Qui Gon wanted. They only honour the half measures that Qui Gon was force into due to the council's initial resistance.

    Why was that? Either the council thought it was wiser for Anakin not to receive crucial initial training and therefore never to complete Jedi training. This is seriously unlikely thought.

    OR there was believed to be no other option because Yoda was the only dissenting voice and he happened to be the Master who provided all Jedi with these crucial initial lessons. All Jedi but one, that is.

    So it's fairly cut and dried. If all Jedi are supposed to be Yoda's padawans and he their master in Jedi lessons, there is only one Jedi that was never Yoda's padawan, and Yoda was never their master.

    I wonder if there's any link between that and Anakin turning to the darkside.
     
  4. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Puts on a whole new light to “I thought I could train him as well as Yoda.” Basically saying, “I thought I could do Yoda’s job of training new recruits.”

    To be fair, the blame can’t be squarely placed on Obi-Wan. Yoda could’ve taken Anakin as his apprentice for a number of years, then handed him over to Obi-Wan.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Exactly.

    How did the council even contemplate that a newly knighted Jedi was capable of fulfilling the role that Yoda has chosen to abdicate when they were alarmed by Qui Gon's rash decision to take it on himself?
     
    Samuel Vimes likes this.
  6. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    On top of that, Anakin is THE most important Jedi alive.
    He and ONLY he can kill the sith and bring balance.
    If something goes wrong, the Jedi are lost since the Sith are now invincible.

    Bye for now.
    Old Stoneface
     
    Martoto77 likes this.
  7. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I never said that he was going to come out and say it. I said that he thought that.

    No, they denied that they would train him. They never told Qui-gon that he couldn't train Anakin, except for the fact that he had Obi-wan. Even Martoto77 caught onto that.

    But he was arrogant before then, when he called Anakin a pathetic lifeform. And Qui-gon said that he had much to learn about the Living Force, which includes being sensitive towards other people. And by his own accounting of what happened when he was much older, he was arrogant.

    He was arrogant in thinking that Anakin would come through and not let him down, only to find out that he did let him down. He also bragged about Anakin being what he is because of him and his teachings.

    But he didn't do as well as Yoda, because his first time out, he lost his Padawan to Palpatine. Yoda had many successes before Dooku.
     
  8. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Which is fanfic. There's another section for that.
    They simply told him Anakin will not be trained. They go into no more detail than that. Qui-Gon even tells Anakin that he "isn't allowed to train him."

    No, he never uses that term in the OT.

    That's not arrogance, that's prejudice. I know you don't believe in the dictionary, but give it a look.

    Believing in other people, including your own students is arrogant? [face_dunno]

    He says Anakin is a better Jedi than him. A humble statement by any definition of the term.

    So they both lost 1 padawan to Palpatine.
     
  9. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Force Ghost star 8

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    Feb 18, 2014
    To me it is likely that some on the council wanted to abide by Qui Gon’s final Wish and also there might have been several council members who thought he was indeed the chosen one as the prophecy says.
     
  10. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Why couldn't Yoda be selfless and train Anakin? Since that's what everyone else wanted, eventually.

    He was only thinking another what he wanted.
     
  11. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    That's not fanfic. That comes from ROTJ.

    No, they said that they will not train him. They never correct Qui-gon when he says, "I will take him on as my Padawan". They never said, "No, it is forbidden for you to train him." They just tell him that he cannot train two Jedi.

    You're playing semantics. Obi-wan admits that he was arrogant when he says that he thought he could do as well as Yoda.

    No, it is arrogant to think that any lifeform that is of no significant value, is pathetic. It isn't prejudice.

    That's not what I said. I said that Obi-wan was arrogant to believe that Anakin would choose the Jedi Order and the Republic, over his friendship to Palpatine. He knows that Anakin is loyal to people more than principles, and yet, he arrogantly believes that he will choose the greater good over loyalty to a friend and mentor to him.

    Once again.

    OBI-WAN: "You are strong and wise, Anakin, and I am very proud of you. I have trained you since you were a small boy. I have taught you everything I know. And you have become a far greater Jedi than I could ever hope to be."

    The first sentence is humble. The second and third sentences were bragging on his part. The fourth sentence winds up being wrong since Anakin is a lousy Jedi.

    Right. Obi-wan right out of the gate and Yoda, at the twilight of the Jedi Order. Yoda's had eight hundred years of successes to Obi-wan's instant failure.
     
  12. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    They also tell him Obi Wan is not ready and therefore still Qui Gon's padawan. They are scornful of Qui Gon's presumption. In effect and in fact, they tell him he cannot train the boy.

    That's why he tells Anakin that he can't teach him. He was paying attention.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  13. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    "No, he will not be trained." - Mace Windu, Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace (1999)

    It doesn't come from ROTJ. So it's fanfic. In fact I'm going to go out on the limb here and say the word "arrogant" is never uttered in the entire OT.

    No, he doesn't. He says he was "wrong" not "arrogant." Again, I know you operate with your own personal dictionary but in English those words have two different meanings.

    When we argue about the meanings of words, me and Websters are right and you are wrong. I'm sorry. Arrogant doesn't mean what you think it means.

    That's not what arrogant means, that's what "wrong" means.

    *wrongly*

    Again, not according to the dictionary definition of "bragging." In fact he goes out of his way to say he taught Anakin "everything I know", not "everything you know" implying that Anakin has already surpassed his knowledge. Quite humble.

    I guess it's better to have an instant failure than a slow decaying 800 year failure.
     
  14. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Sinister:

    • His praise of Anakin was not arrogance — it was born from his years as a comrade to Anakin during the Clone Wars. All the times young Skywalker saved Obi-Wan’s rear. It’s perfectly understandable why he’d think Anakin would never just suddenly betray the Jedi and the Republic, prop up a Sith Empire and wipe out the very people he once called friends. Hardly arrogance at all. Indeed, if I were him, I’d expect Anakin to do what he usually does: be a stellar Jedi.

    His being mistaken in his assumption doesn’t mean he was being arrogant. He was just tragically wrong.

    Arrogance is Anakin saying his skill with a lightsaber rivals Master Yoda. Arrogance is Anakin thinking he is entitled to the rank of Master despite knowing full well that you don’t have to be a master to be on the council. Arrogance is Darth Maul thinking he’s got the fight in the bag when Obi-Wan is clinging onto a shaft for dear life. Arrogance is Emperor Palpatine thinking Vader wouldn’t attempt to save Luke’s life, despite the fact that his desire to keep those he loved from dying was the reason he turned at all! Arrogance is...you get what I’m saying.

    Obi-Wan was making his statement based off of irrefutable evidence, based off of what he had seen of Anakin during the Clone Wars. He saw a man loyal to the cause, a defender of the Jedi and of the Republic. To put it in our terms, it’d be like if you had a best friend who was a devout Catholic. Loved Jesus and practiced the ideals of compassion, mercy, and kindness...only to wake up one day learning that your best friend burnt down his own church and shot his wife in the face.

    Assuming your best friend wouldn’t suddenly do an about-face isn’t arrogance. It’s called trust. And Anakin took that trust Obi-Wan had for him and dropped the mother of all thermal detonators on it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I think we're talking cross ways here. Qui-gon wants the Jedi to train him and they refuse. So he says that he will do it, but they don't tell him that he cannot do it for no other reason than he has a student. If he didn't, they wouldn't tell him no. They don't exactly tell Obi-wan no either.

    Right, they won't train him. They never forbid him from training Anakin, other than because he's already teaching Obi-wan.

    I never said that it was. I said that Obi-wan thought that he could do better, which comes from a place of arrogance. He never said, "I arrogantly think I can do better than you." But he felt that he could. He thought that he could, which is what he tells Luke.

    Let me simplify it for you. "I thought I could train him just as well as Yoda" is a statement describing his belief in his abilities. "I was wrong" is an admission of his own failings. His own arrogance. Likewise, when he calls Anakin a pathetic lifeform, his feelings are racist. He feeling is that Qui-gon is wasting his time on these little crusades that he has taken on over the years, like he has with Jar Jar and now Anakin. This is why Qui-gon explains that Obi-wan still has much to learn about the Living Force.

    "The Force itself breaks into two sides: the Living Force and a greater, Cosmic Force. The Living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read other people's minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny."

    --George Lucas, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999.

    In other words, he's saying that Obi-wan isn't as sensitive to other people's needs as he should. Hence having a bit of an arrogant streak in him.

    It's still bragging because he's still talking about himself and his role in teaching Anakin.

    Except Obi-wan also knew that Anakin was loyal to people over principles. He knew that if he was put in a situation where he would have to ask him to do something like spy on someone that he cared about, he would be emotionally conflicted about it. He just believed that he would do his duty and was confident in him that he would do so, without exception. Mace and Yoda could see that it was a bad idea, but his was very confident in Anakin not letting him down.

    Also, one more thing; part of the story that was being told in the PT, was that the Jedi were becoming arrogant in their abilities. You honestly believe that Obi-wan was the only Jedi to not be arrogant? A flaw that was common among the Jedi of his time.
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    And Qui Gon will still have a padawan as long as the council don't consider Obi-Wan ready to be a Knight. Which they explicitly don't. Possibly only just to stymie Qui Gon, such is their opposition to Anakin being trained.
     
  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I don't think it was to stymie Qui-gon. As Yoda said, they are the ones who decide on who is ready for the trials and they haven't decided yet. It's also a callback to the conversation between Luke and Yoda about Luke being ready to learn from him. That's why Yoda says similar things both times.

    OBI-WAN: "I am ready to face the trials."

    YODA: "Our own counsel we will keep on who is ready."


    LUKE: "I am ready. I can be a Jedi. Ben, tell him I'm --"

    YODA: "Ready, are you? What know you ready? For 800 years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained."
     
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  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    They immediately decide newly knighted Obi-Wan is ideal to train the chosen one by himself after saying he wasn't ready to even be a knight.

    Either the council just take leave of their senses or they were just being obtuse and holding Obi Wan back so that Qui Gon couldn't adopt Anakin.

    They still don't train Anakin. They get the apprentice of the guy they didn't want to train Anakin because he had an apprentice that needed training. The apprentice kills a guy so that makes him a better teacher than Yoda it seems. Or they just wanted to get around Yoda selfishly playing hardball.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Or they were honoring Qui-gon's wish that Obi-wan be allowed to train. Note that Anakin is only a Knight for a few months when he was paired up with Ahsoka. And Luke was pretty green when he started teaching Leia some of the tricks that she used. Kanan was still a Padawan himself when he started training Ezra. There doesn't appear to be a hard and fast rule as to when it is acceptable for a Knight to start training a Padawan.

    Right, they just sign off on his training. A simple compromise all around. Qui-gon's wishes are honored and they get to keep an eye on the boy.
     
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    He won't be trained. Clear as day. No one specifies who he can and can't be trained by. He won't be trained. In your defense Qui-Gon seems to be willing to rebel and train him anyway, which they seem to consider as an option, but they do no state that.

    Which is a "place" you made up.

    Thinking isn't arrogant.

    Believing in your own abilities isn't arrogant. Again "arrogance" in the english language is defined as:
    The act or quality of taking much upon one's self; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree; proud contempt of others; conceitedness; presumption.

    [​IMG]

    Talking about your role in something isn't bragging.

    They don't approve Anakin's training to "honor Qui-Gon's wishes." You just made that up.
     
  21. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 6, 2016
    So it WAS sentimental attachment to Qui Gon that motivated their decision.
     
  22. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    How ironic, they could tell others to let go of all attachments but not do it themselves. [face_rofl]
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2018 at 1:50 AM
  23. PadawanGussin

    PadawanGussin Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 6, 2017
    I think that part of the overall problem with then Jedi order by the time of the prequels is the tendency to use a one size fits all approach to the training of Padawans. When Yoda speaks of the increasing arrogance and overconfidence of even older Jedi he does not seem to connect this observation with the possibility of a flaw in the Teaching or training of younglings. Only during his duel with Palpatine does he realize that the Jedi had failed to adapt to a changing galaxy over the last 1000 years.

    Any set of teachings and training is experienced very differently by different people and there needed to be a variety of methods to meet the needs of a very diverse membership.

    This blind spot allowed a first time mentor with no appearance teaching to be given a very complex, difficult and flawed student with the likely assumption that if Obi Wan just stuck to the script everything would be OK.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    In other words, you just summed up what I said.

    No, George Lucas did when he wrote that arrogance was a flaw common among the Jedi. Even the older and more experienced ones. So, what makes sense to you. That all of the Jedi were arrogant, or only one Jedi out of ten thousand wasn't.

    Thinking that he could do better than Yoda is arrogance.

    OBI-WAN: "I thought I could train him as well as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride had terrible consequences for the galaxy."

    Yes, it is. From Merriam Webster's dictionary.

    -Definition of brag for English Language Learners : to talk about yourself, your achievements, your family, etc., in a way that shows too much pride.

    Obi-wan's sentiment that Anakin is a great Jedi and he got it from him and his teachings, is bragging.

    No, they approve of Obi-wan training Anakin to honor his last wish. They choose to let him be part of the Jedi Order because of his abilities and the return of the Sith being confirmed. It was not out of sentiment.
     
  25. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    At least we finally agree on something then.

    Obi-Wan never mentions being arrogant, or acts with arrogance. One could argue his treatment of "pathetic lifeforms" was arrogant but it doesn't fit the term perfectly, rude or bigoted might better describe it.

    He didn't say he could do better than Yoda.

    AS WELL AS.

    So are you switching to pride now? I thought it was arrogance? Where is this dialogue from?

    No it isn't. Are you making up dictionary definition now?
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogance

    He didn't mention Anakin getting anything from his teachings. In fact he humbled himself by saying Anakin was a better Jedi than him.

    No, they didn't. Once more, you're completely making things up. :rolleyes: