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PT Why did the Jedi Council allow Anakin to be Trained?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by PadawanGussin, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Obi-Wan’s “Pathetic lifeform” was rude, but I didn’t see it as bigotry. Bigotry would be like, “Master, since when did we mingle with these Outer Rim scum?” in a tone of obvious disgust/disdain. He doesn’t think he’s somehow superior to other beings, he was just being sarcastic and snarky. Even his tone betrays he wasn’t being serious about it. He was just poking fun at Qui-Gon since he had just recently allowed a bumbling Gungan to join them on a super important mission and now here he comes about it do it once again. :D

    If Obi-Wan were snarkier, he’d probably have said, “Shall I rename our ship to: ‘Home of Wayward Orphans and Outcasts’?” :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2018
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  2. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Why would he have to mention that he was arrogant? So, in other words, out of ten thousand Jedi who are described as being arrogant, he's the only exception? That's some BS there.

    Pride is a synonym of arrogance. And the extra dialogue comes from the shooting script, where Obi-wan describes to Luke about training Anakin.

    Read through the whole page about arrogance and you'll see where I culled that from.

    If Anakin didn't get anything from his teachings, he'd still be trying to learn how to move objects with the Force. He passed on not just his knowledge of the Force, but his experiences as a Jedi, which helped to shape who he is.

    If they didn't, then Obi-wan wouldn't be the one to train him. It would be another Jedi.
     
  3. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Ten thousand Jedi are not described as being arrogant. Neither is Obi-Wan. And yes he is indeed an exceptional Jedi. His feats include
    - Being the only living Jedi to slay a Sith Lord (32BBY)
    - Defeating two Sith Lords in single combat
    - Successfully training a Jedi apprentice who started at age 10 (don't talking about that other sutff..[face_relieved])

    I attached the link. You're definition is not there.

    But that's YOU saying that. Not Obi-Wan.

    That's YOU saying that. Not Obi-Wan. How are you attributing him all the credit for Anakin's training while simultaneously calling him arrogant for the mere mention that he had a hand in Anakin's training?

    Says you. But no one in the film says this.
     
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  4. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Yoda says that arrogance is a flaw more and more common among the Jedi. Was he just talking out his ass? Why wouldn't Obi-wan be arrogant if it is a flaw common among the Jedi?

    He also created the Sith Lord who destroyed the Jedi Order and lost to Dooku several times. And he couldn't even kill Maul the first time. It took him thirty years to finish him off for good and lost to him in their second encounter on Raydonia and failed to keep Adi Gallia from being killed by Maul. And Yoda even beat him to successfully training a Jedi as Yoda did it with a twenty three year old Padawan

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/arrogant

    No, Obi-wan said that I taught you everything I know.

    He is arrogant in his belief that Anakin is a great Jedi and attributes that greatness to his training. He is turning a blind eye to Anakin's faults and weaknesses, because he believes that his training has made him into a Jedi who would resist temptation. Who would never fall to the dark side and betray everything.

    That's why it is implied.
     
  5. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    This does not equate to Yoda stating that every single Jedi is arrogant.

    Because Obi-Wan is an exceptional Jedi, to be honest.

    So you don't like Obi-Wan. That doesn't make him arrogant.

    : exaggerating or disposed to exaggerate one's own worth or importance often by an overbearing manner
    • an arrogant official
    This differs LARGELY from the definition you provided:
    : to talk about yourself, your achievements, your family, etc., in a way that shows too much pride.

    ..which was apparently just made up on the spot, by you.

    Implying that Anakin knows more than him. Quite humble.

    He never attributes that greatness to his training. He stated Anakin is a better Jedi than him.

    You could intelligently argue the first part. The second is completely made up.

    He trusted Anakin above anyone, yes. This is not arrogance, it's just called trust.

    No, just made up. The terms are not interchangeable.
     
  6. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Except when he also states it to Ezra.

    YODA: "Padawan, thousands of Jedi once there were. Then came war. In our arrogance, join the conflict swiftly we did. Fear, anger, hate. Consumed by the dark side the Jedi were."

    He's not just talking about the Council. He's talking about all of them.

    He had good qualities, but he was still susceptible to arrogance. And no, I point out his flaws not because I dislike him. I point out his flaws because he has them. He's a very good Jedi, but he is no better than the others.

    You need to scroll all the way down the page.

    No, it doesn't. It means that he has the same knowledge and skill set that he has. To know more than him would mean that he had to learn from someone else who was better than he was at training him.

    He does attribute that greatness to his training, because he is the only one who taught him. Not Yoda, not Mace, not Ki-Adi.

    How is it made up? He believes that he would choose the Jedi and the Republic over himself.

    And he does not believe that he would break that trust, when Mace and Yoda believe that he will. They can see the cracks in Anakin that Obi-wan cannot let himself see. He believes that he would never let him down, which is more than just having trust.
     
  7. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Meh. Not too into the TCW. Not to mention all the Jedi didn't choose to go to war; that was the Council.

    To say he was a very good Jedi implies he was better than others. If he wasn't, he would literally just be an average Jedi. I just said he doesn't act arrogant, state he's arrogant, and no one else does either.

    No, it doesn't. E.g. Plagueis taught Palpatine everything he knew, and Palpatine bested him by knowing EVEN more.

    The goal of a teacher is to make the student better than them.

    Or to pursue and learn knowledge on his own, like all great students do.

    There is no "because," he either did or he didn't. And he didn't. The words never came out of his mouth. He told Anakin that he taught him everything he (Obi-Wan) knew, implying Anakin knows more, which is why he is a better Jedi than him. This was shown in physical combat when Dooku threw Obi-Wan around like a ragdoll but Anakin was able to best him one-on-one.
    The character never says this. You just made up "thoughts" that he doesn't express in the film.

    As much as I disagree with this sentiment, to return to the original point, none of this signifies Obi-Wan was arrogant.
     
  8. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    It was from "Rebels" and yes, all of the Jedi chose to go to war. None sat out of the war and were all willing to fight for it.

    Obi-wan as a Jedi was no different in terms of being a good Jedi than any other Jedi. They were all good people. Obi-wan, Mace, Ki-Adi, Yoda, Plo, Ahoksa, they were all good Jedi. No one was more special than the other. As to stating he was arrogant, I never said that he said that. I said that in his handling of Anakin, he was filled with arrogance which other Jedi were also filled with.

    No, he bested him by killing him in his sleep. He doesn't know more than he does about the dark side. Hell, he doesn't even know how to create life or cheat death.

    No, the goal of the teacher is to pass on their knowledge to a student by educating them and preparing them for the world.

    Except that Anakin never did that other than by going to the dark side.

    Dooku was killed because Anakin used the dark side, which is the only reason why he beat Dooku. He couldn't do it before when they fought the last few times, because Anakin never let himself use it until Dooku got him to. If he hadn't used the dark side, he would have lost to him as he did before.

    Not true. In the conversation between Anakin and Obi-wan about being on the Council, Anakin states that he knows where his loyalties lie. Obi-wan says that he hopes so. Later, Obi-wan says to Yoda and Mace that Anakin won't let him down. Meaning that he believes that when push comes to shove, Anakin will do what is right. And Obi-wan firmly believes that Anakin has become a Jedi and won't walk down the path that Dooku did.

    Because he puts such blind trust into Anakin, without a critical eye open, he has become arrogant enough to believe that nothing bad will come from it. And he is in part fueled by his feeling that Anakin is a great Jedi, because he taught him. He did what the Council had been concerned with as being unwise and Anakin had accomplished many things, because of his ability to train him as well as Yoda.
     
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  9. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Actually several sat out.

    So wait, he was a good Jedi but also and average Jedi?

    So being a good person makes you a good Jedi? I thought to be a Jedi you needed to use..you know, the Force?

    Guess he knows more about the art of war then.

    Students are already IN the world.

    Says you. According to Obi-Wan he did.
    So did Mace Windu. This using the dark side in lightsaber combat clearly wasn't banned by the Jedi.

    No he doesn't, you made that up.

    You injected that meaning, he doesn't say that. The very issue here is that Anakin doesn't know if spying on the Head of State is right. How can he do whats right if he doesn't know.

    Anakin has been a Jedi for about 13 years at this point.

    Again, trusting a close friend who has never betrayed you before isn't "arrogance," it's just trust.

    No, he never states this.
     
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  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Nope. All the Jedi fought.

    Yes, because he was no different. He had the same compassion that the other Jedi have. He had the same knowledge. The same dedication.

    That's shifting goals. To be a Jedi, one must not give into the dark side. They must have compassion and unconditional love for all people. They must not have attachments and be willing to put the needs of others over themselves. The ability to use the Force is just that.

    He just knew enough to not go to sleep.

    A student who lives at home with their parents and have not gone out and experienced life. That's why the phrase is "Going to school to prepare for the real world."

    Obi-wan was unconscious and didn't see how the fight ended. Anakin didn't tell him that he used his anger and hate, much less that he killed him when he was helpless.

    Vaapad isn't the dark side. It is surrendering to the fight.

    ANAKIN: "Master, you of all people should have confidence in my abilities. I know where my loyalties lie."

    OBI-WAN: "I hope so . . ."

    ANAKIN: "I sense there's more to this talk than you're saying."

    Anakin knows that it is wrong, but his priorities are mixed up. He says that it is wrong to betray a friend and a mentor, as well as to go against the Senate. But at the same time, he is being told that his friend might be up to no good and he has to be open to that possibility. But he isn't due to his loyalties to his friends over the greater good.

    He was a Padawan for ten years and Jedi for three.

    No, the arrogance is thinking that your friend will never betray you when it is clear he is starting to crack.

    He says that he taught him everything he knows about being a Jedi and thus he is a great Jedi because he taught him to be one.
     
  11. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    Not according to the EU.

    He was taller than Yoda though, that's not the same. Probably different sized genitals as well.

    He's been fighting in a war. That's the real world.

    No, he seems quite confused. He expresses this to Palpatine and Obi-Wan.

    He is caught between two political entities vying for power. Neither are explicitly fighting for the greater good in his eyes.

    Padawan is a rank of Jedi.

    No, that's just trust. You're injecting new meaning into a word that isn't there.

    He never said this.
     
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  12. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Feb 24, 2005
    Oh for the love of... How is this arrogance!?

    We’ve already covered this. Obi-Wan was just tragically wrong. If he had to be guilty of anything, it was not giving Anakin the psychiatric help he needed and stress to the others that putting a Jedi who is already in a mentally vulnerable state near the Sith Lord (they believed he was in the upper echelons of power within the Republic) was the worst possible thing they could do.
     
  13. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 9

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    In the movie, he does say to Anakin "I am on your side - I didn't want you put in this position" regarding the spying on Palpatine thing.

    And in the novel - he makes it clear to the Jedi that Anakin won't ever trust them again:


    "I should have argued more strongly in Council today."
    "You think Skywalker won't be able to handle this?" Mace Windu said. "I thought you had more confidence in his abilities."
    "I trust him with my life," Obi-Wan said simply. "And that is precisely the problem."
    The other two Jedi Masters watched him silently while he tried to summon the proper words.
    "For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met - loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he - he will never, I think, truly understand."
    He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner - one day sooner - were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."
    "As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."
    "Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."
    Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders - the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of entire planetary systems - to save a friend.
    More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.
    "I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."
    Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.
    "Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."
    "Understand exactly where your concern lies, I do not." Yoda's green eyes had gone softly sympathetic. "Named your fear must be, before banish it you can. Do you fear that perform his task, he cannot?"
    "Oh, no. That's not it at all. I am firmly convinced that Anakin can do anything. Except betray a friend. What we have done to him today ..."
    "But that is what Jedi are," Mace Windu said. That is what we have pledged ourselves to: selfless service -"
    Obi-Wan turned to stare once more toward the assault ships that would carry Yoda and the clone battalions to Kashyyyk, but he could see only Anakin's face.
    If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it?
    "Yes, he said slowly. "That's why I don't think he will ever trust us again."
    He found his eyes turning unaccountably hot, and his vision swam with unshed tears.
    "And I'm not entirely sure he should."
     
  14. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Lucas didn't write the EU and didn't consider it canon to his films and to TCW.

    TOTAL FILM: "The Star Wars universe has expanded far beyond the movies. How much leeway do the game makers and novel writers have?"

    LUCAS: "They have their own kind of world. There's three pillars of Star Wars. I'll probably get in trouble for this but it's OK! There's three pillars: the father, the son and the holy ghost. I'm the father, Howard Roffman [president of Lucas Licensing] is the son and the holy ghost is the fans, this kind of ethereal world of people coming up with all kinds of different ideas and histories. Now these three different pillars don't always match, but the movies and TV shows are all under my control and they are consistent within themselves. Howard tries to be consistent but sometimes he goes off on tangents and it's hard to hold him back. He once said to me that there are two Star Trek universes: there's the TV show and then there's all the spin-offs. He said that these were completely different and didn't have anything to do with each other. So I said, "OK, go ahead."

    --Total Film interview, 2008.

    "There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There's my world, which is the movies, and there's this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don't intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don't get too involved in the parallel universe."

    --George Lucas, Cinescape interview, 2001.


    Ergo, according to Lucas, all the Jedi fought in the war. There were Jedi sitting out the war.

    And yet, he still needed to pass his trial. The one trial he never took.

    When he's asked to be his representative on the Council, Anakin sees it as an honor. When he's ask to spy on Palpatine, he's offended at the notion and doesn't understand why the Jedi are suspicious of Palpatine. He's only confused about Palpatine after finding out he's Sidious.

    Only after Palpatine has revealed himself as Sidious. Not before then.

    LUKE: "Then I am a Jedi."

    YODA: "Not yet."

    Luke was a Padawan, yet Yoda said that he's not a Jedi yet.

    No, I'm pointing out that Obi-wan's trust that Anakin is such that he is arrogant in thinking he would not shirk from his duty. I never said that trust means arrogance.

    Anakin can only be a great Jedi from his teachings. You're a good person or a bad one, from how you were raised. These things influence you and what you hope to be.
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    These two sentences are conflicting. And it makes complete sense that some Jedi would have the common sense to sit out. as Qui-Gon showed us in TPM we know Jedi Masters aren't beholden to the whims of the Council.

    This is made up. No one says this in the film. He is a Jedi Knight.

    No, he's confused about the situation. About his loyalty to both Palps and the Jedi. To democracy vs a potential dictator. To Padme vs the galaxy. He expresses some of it during the opera scene.

    No, long before then. He expresses it to Obi-Wan after the Council meeting and to Palpatine during the opera scene.

    Luke was never a padawan.

    In the opening crawl of TPM Padawan Obi-Wan is described as a "Jedi Knight"


    While the Congress of the
    Republic endlessly debates
    this alarming chain of events,
    the Supreme Chancellor has
    secretly dispatched two Jedi
    Knights, the guardians of
    peace and justice in the
    galaxy, to settle the conflict....

    That's not what arrogance means.

    Says you, but Obi-Wan never expresses this sentiment.
     
  16. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I mistyped. There were no Jedi sitting out the war. And there's no reason for the Jedi to not do their duty.

    In name only. Not in his heart.

    He's not confused until he's told that Palpatine is a Sith. Before then, he's quite clear as to where his loyalty lie and it is to the Chancellor over the Jedi.

    No, he doesn't see Palpatine as a bad man until he tells him that he is a bad man. When he's talking to Obi-wan, he's upset about the Jedi not trusting him and asking him to betray a friend. When he's in the opera house, he says that he is not sure it was wrong, but he isn't doubting Palpatine.

    Yes, he is. He's training under Yoda and thus he is a Padawan.

    And Yoda says that he isn't a Knight until he's passed the trials. Same with Anakin.

    Fine, what word would you use.

    Again, when he says, I taught you everything I know. That includes on how to be a great Jedi. It comes from his teachings.
     
  17. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    "We're peacekeepers, not soldiers" ..that's a reason.

    He never voices this in the film.

    "I know there are things about the Force they're not telling me."
    He is also willing to give Palpatine hints, but not willing to outright tell him the Jedi are making him spy. He also defends the Jedi way, differentiating them from the Sith.

    Nobody on this thread has said he sees Palpatine as a bad man. This is a strawman argument.

    He's not sure. This is a form of confusion.

    The term padawan is never uttered in the PT. You are making it up.

    I'm not sure what this means. Obi-Wan is a described as a Jedi by the film.

    Oh I don't know, the dictionary definition is a good start, isn't it?

    But he doesn't say that, you just made it up.
     
  18. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    "We're peacekeepers, not soldiers" ..that's a reason.

    He never voices this in the film.

    "I know there are things about the Force they're not telling me."
    He is also willing to give Palpatine hints, but not willing to outright tell him the Jedi are making him spy. He also defends the Jedi way, differentiating them from the Sith.

    Nobody on this thread has said he sees Palpatine as a bad man. This is a strawman argument.

    He's not sure. This is a form of confusion.

    The term padawan is never uttered in the PT. You are making it up.

    I'm not sure what this means. Obi-Wan is a described as a Jedi by the film.

    Oh I don't know, the dictionary definition is a good start, isn't it?

    But he doesn't say that, you just made it up.
     
  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Keepers of the peace who have fought in wars. That's been the Jedi way when they fought a war over a thousand years ago, to eliminate the Sith. What Mace was telling Palpatine was that they are not an army of soldiers. Their duty is to the Republic and to maintain the peace and in that, you have to fight a war. Yoda doesn't dispute that the Jedi didn't fight in wars, but their motivations were almost often correct. With the Clone Wars, Palpatine confused the issue and as a result, the Jedi were in the wrong while in the right.

    Yes, he does. He tells Padme that his loyalties lie with the Chancellor.

    I never said that he wasn't confused about the Jedi's actions. I said that he agreed with Palpatine's asking him to be a spy on the Council. And he didn't give Palpatine hints, as he had already figured it out. Yes, he defends the Jedi way which isn't a sign of confusion on his part.

    I never accused anyone of saying anything. My point is that Anakin isn't confused about his loyalty towards Palpatine until he finds out that he is Sidious. But he is confused about his loyalty to the Jedi.

    He's confused about the Jedi side of things, not about Palpatine. He's not sure if the Jedi are asking him to spy on him because they're worried that he's corrupt, or if they're planning something more sinister.

    I never said it was uttered. That doesn't mean that Luke isn't a Padawan. Yoda does not consider him a Jedi, thus he is a Padawan.

    By the title crawl. Qui-gon refers to him as a Padawan. He is only a Knight after his ordeal with Maul and the Council grants him the title, thus making him a Jedi.

    YODA: "Confer on you, the level of Jedi Knight the Council does."

    Much like in AOTC.

    SIO BIBBLE: "What is your suggestion, Master Jedi?"

    PADME: "Oh, Anakin's not a Jedi yet. He's still a Padawan Learner."

    I have used the dictionary.

    No, I did not. How do you become something? You become that from experience and teachings. Obi-wan didn't just teach him to use the Force. He taught him to be a Jedi. Just like Qui-gon taught him to be a Jedi and Dooku taught Qui-gon to be a Jedi.
     
  20. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    You asked for a reason the Jedi wouldn't fight in a war. I gave you one. You're not happy with it? UN Peacekeepers ALSO don't fight in wars.

    removed. /heels

    No offense, but this statement is so random and convoluted, I'm not sure it's relevant to to the discussion, so I'll bring it back:
    Anakin was confused about who he should side with, Palpatine or the Jedi Council.

    This is untrue. He disregards Palpatine's direct order to leave Obi-Wan behind, and doesn't deny Obi-Wan's claim that Palpatine is hoarding political power.

    This is debatable; I think otherwise, but your actually making an educated guess based on what occurs in the film rather than making up your own events..bravo.

    Padawans were considered Jedi according to the films. Yoda was likely referring to the rank of Jedi Knight, obviously evolving since Luke underwent a less than traditional apprenticeship.
    Youngling > Padawan > Knight > Master; each of these ranks was considered a Jedi.

    -Obi-Wan is referred to as a Jedi Knight in the opening crawl of TPM
    -Padme calls Anakin her "Jedi protector"
    -Palpatine urges Anakin to kill all the JEDI, which is why he executes the younglings
    YES! I got you using a dictionary!? I feel like I'm actually making a difference in the world.

    That doesn't mean you owe all your experience, everything you are and everything you know; to one person. That's ridiculous.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2018