PT Why did the Jedi Council push Anakin to watch Palpatine?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Mar 16, 2013.

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  1. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    well if Anakinfans answer didn't do it for you, then try "I don't want to give my blood for such and such a reason"

    it's like security cameras in the street, some perfectly law abiding people don't like the idea of being spied on.

    Plus the Jedi don't have the authority to randomly check someones blood count,

    "we want to know if someone is practising another religion than us by way of midichlorians" I don't think is grounds for checking someones blood based on lack of evidence


    "yup he has a high midi count, now what?"

    "yeah good question, hmm, well we'll spy on him"
    Last edited by Sistros, Mar 22, 2013
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  2. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    What and that wouldn't raise a few eyebrows? It did with Anakin, otherwise Qui gon would've just said 'mm yeah whatever' . Im betting Palpatines level would've been high, on a par with Yodas. Remember Obi wan said that Anakin had a level even higher than Yodas, which kind of points to someone being strong in the force. So if Palpatine had a level as high as Yodas, think its fair to say that he would be a force user. Am I wrong?
  3. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    you're not wrong no, but just because he has a high midi count as high as Yoda's doesn't mean Palpatine knew about it,

    look at Luke, he had no idea of his potential growing up of what he was capable of


    Palpatine can easily feign ignorance over it. Having a high midi count on the grand scheme of things is not evidence he's a Sith, what can they arrest him for exactly?
    Last edited by Sistros, Mar 22, 2013
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  4. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    So is there any reference to someone having an extremely high count who doesn't know or care that they have and doesn't use that power? When the story of Luke was told midi chlorians didn't exist in the Star Wars universe. So that's a poor example. The argument Palpatine wouldn't know of his gift is hollow. If your strong in the force you tend to know that you are, you don't just dismiss it. (That's what we're lead to believe)
  5. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    I agree Palpatine could have pleaded ignorance. However, since he was already a suspect it would have made the circumstantial case against him stronger. It would have definitely caused the Jedi to increase their scrutiny of him.
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  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    It's an interesting point. Luke has no clue there is anything special about him. A child Anakin already shows many signs of being gifted. One does not match the other.
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  7. DARTHSHAME Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2003
    star 4
    I have to agree. At the risk of opening a can of worms, this is one of the reasons why the whole Midi-chlorian concept is controversial.
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  8. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    It's not circumstantial. Palpatine is already suspected. And then the Jedi find out he has a midi (whatever) count as high as MASTER YODA! And then after conferring say, 'hmm..(much beard stroking) ya know, we better keep an eye on him. He might turn out to be decidedly dodgy? (Nodding knowingly). ' No wonder everything went to pot if that was their mindset?!! Lol
  9. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Congratulations. DARTHSHAME just got the whole point of the argument. (Applause)
  10. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    If the Council suspected Palpatine of being a Sith, a midichlorian count would be a good start. A high midichlorian count wouldn't be evidence that Palpatine was a Sith, I'd consider it highly suspicious, but without any concrete evidence, it doesn't do them much good, legally. The Council would probably be certain of Palpatine's guilt, but that's not enough. At the very least, it would convince the Council that Palpatine is the one they're looking for and inspire them to do everything within their power to gather the evidence they need.

    We don't know if the Jedi had the authority to take blood samples for midichlorians counts. Maybe they did. I don't find it unreasonable, Qui-Gon seems to intimate that it's standard practice for children in the Republic.

    I would say Anakin Skywalker wasn't consciously aware of his powers when we first meet him in TPM.

    He's a talented and confident kid and he uses his powers unconsciously, but if Qui-Gon (or anyone else with necessary knowledge) never comes along Anakin would never have any real knowledge of the Force, or any abilities beyond extraordinary reflexes, an intuitive understanding of machines and other unconscious abilities.

    The only two other possible examples are Luke and Leia, who are both entirely unaware, but you have disqualified them from the argument, despite the origins of midi-chlorians dating back to at least 1977, according to The Making of Star Wars: The Definitive Story Behind the Original Film, if you trust that source.

    I'd also like to point out that though Luke is unaware, he shows the same signs that Anakin did. We know Luke was a good pilot before ANH even begins, and with only a very short, very basic training session with Ben to aid him, he proves to be a pretty good shot on the Falcon's quads and an amazing pilot in an X-Wing, along with intuitively using the Force to guide a proton torpedo into a two meter shaft.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Mar 22, 2013
  11. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    A Jedi master did come up with that idea, then he was assassinated by Palpatine's forces.
  12. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    If the entire Council wants a midichlorian count, it would not be as easy to simply kill them all off, at least not without enacting Order 66 and declaring open war on the Jedi.
  13. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Anakin is irrelevant to the debate. An already suspected guy is then after investigative testing found to have a midi chlorian count as high as Master Yoda and he isn't a Jedi..though he is suspected of being, or being involved with the Sith. Erm..(sigh) is Columbp or Kojak anywhere around here anywhere? Cause these dumb monks seem to have no clue whatsoever!...
  14. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    The problem is, not the whole Council wanted to do it, it might cause the Senate to dislike the Jedi more, and if Sidious has a lot of power, he could mess up with the blood sample, maybe use someone else' blood sample.
  15. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    Okay, Jcuk.

    I'm curious, did you even read what I said?

    1) You asked if there was any reference to someone having an extremely high count who doesn't know, and I gave you an answer.

    2) I agreed that Palpatine having a high midichlorian count would be suspicious, but it would not be enough evidence (it's not really evidence at all) to actually do anything about it legally.

    But by all means, carry on.


    Regardless of each individual Council member's opinion, the Council acts as one. If the majority of the Council votes for a test, which is the assumption I put forward, then testing is what's going to happen, assuming the Jedi have the authority, which was also the assumption I put forward.
    I find it highly unlikely that Sidious would be able to mess with a test, considering it only requires a prick with a small mechanism to take a sample, and a simple computer to run the test. It could be done in about fifteen seconds right in the front of the Senate.

    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Mar 22, 2013
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  16. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    The Jedi are conducting the test and they are basically the police of the senate yeah? So who the **** is Palpatine to say no? The Chancellor CANNOT fake the test because its physically done there and then (think Anakin TPM) and the results reveal his count is equal to that of Master Yoda. He's NOT a JEDI. But, he's SUSPECTED of being a SITH. Wall bang head wall bang head wall bang head....
  17. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    The Jedi could enrage the Senate by doing this, that's why quite a few of them would disagree. Sure their purpose is good, but Palpatine and those anti Jedi senators would twist this action, let others and the military think they are going to do something like secret police, which would mess things up, and politics is not what Jedi are good at compare to these politicians.

    The Supreme Chancellor, who controls both the senate and the court, also had a very good relationship with the military.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Mar 22, 2013
  18. anakinfansince1983 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2011
    star 7
    If your theory is correct, it seems that the Jedi need to grow a set of balls.
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  19. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    There only asking for a quick blood sample. You make it sound like a dictatorship. The sort of person that if your doctor asked for one, would be up in arms complaining it breaches their human rights to automatically expect you to comply. IF YOU'VE NOTHING TO HIDE, WHY OPPOSE IT? IF YOU OPPOSE IT THEN YOU'VE GOT SOMETHING O HIDE! Are you that ****ing stoopid???
  20. Slowpokeking Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 21, 2012
    star 4
    They are no fools, they will ask "WHY"? The Jedi are not doctors, they must do it for a purpose.

    What would Palpatine and those anti-Jedi senators tell others? "The Jedi are going to take blood samples as the excuse and call who oppose them as Sith!" Remember many senators and most of the military are already displeased with the Jedi, they are going to stand with Palpatine, it would be stupid to piss them off more.
    Last edited by Slowpokeking, Mar 22, 2013
  21. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    . If your strong in the force you tend to know that you are, you don't just dismiss it. (That's what we're lead to believe)
    ------------------

    we'll agree to disagree

    not everyone acts the same way.
  22. SHAD0W-JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 3
    What I think some miss here is that Palpatine's plans are so clever, so good, precisely because he realizes just how flawed Anakin is -- more than the Jedi do. It's not so much that the Jedi are, as someone earlier here asserted, "arrogant jerks", its that, if anything they give Anakin TOO MUCH credit, they think TOO highly of him. Palpatine realizes just how much ego is within Anakin, how much insecurity and need for acclaim, how much resentment (and, later, how much FEAR). To get back to the subject of this Thread, asking Anakin to keep an eye on Palpatine may have been a bit un-Jedi like, sneaky, but note that Anakin has no problems being Palpatine's "eyes and ears on the Jedi Council" (Hmmmm) and that when it turns out that - well what do you know! - the Council was right... Palpatine IS a Sith Lord! , does Anakin appear crushed, stunned, contrite? Er...not so much, as he betrays the Jedi and the Republic about an hour later.

    Guess what I am trying to say is that even if asking Anakin to keep an eye on Palpatine might be a bit "edgy" by Jedi standards, the real problem isn't with the request, its with the guy they make the request OF.
  23. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    But no one can take a blood sample from you without your consent or without a specific permit, like a warrant or a court order, either.

    To some people, the knowledge that can be gained from by analyzing their biological material is of the most personal and private kind. To such people, having someone demand that you relinquish a biological sample is nothing short of a violation of the individual's autonomy and right to have a private life – it has nothing to do with them having something to hide, but a question of principles. That is why most countries have laws concerning the collection of biological material - to protect the citizens.

    In my country there has been a discussion about creating a nationwide DNA-register, and though a majority of people support it, it is unlikely to ever happen because of the ethic implications. When it comes to the question of gathering biological material from people, things are far from as black and white as you seem to think.
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  24. Marc McAllister Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2013
    Because SW films use a template where they base the films on the real years in human history. TPM is 1910 idk what AOTC is yet ROTS is 1992 and in March 22 Mahatma Gandhi was convicted of Sedition, of trying to start a revolution and overthrow the government and that's what the jedi were trying to do, and they wanted Anakin to help them. This is just IMO. GL would never admit it.
  25. Jcuk Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Yeah er, were talking about a film here! Of which the Jedi are investigating the belief that the sith are controlling, or are someone in the senate.
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