PT Why did the Jedi Council push Anakin to watch Palpatine?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Mar 16, 2013.

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  1. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    To put it in a modern context, imagine if a group that a lot of people think of as a "cult" snuck in and poked Obama in the middle of wartime to get a sample of his blood for some reason that the general public would think is weird. (Presumably only the Jedi and small number of others truly understand the significance of midichlorians).

    If this "cult" were caught doing this. Immediately, that cult would be looked at with incredible suspicion. So, this scenario would play directly into Palpatine's hands and allow him to depict the Jedi as traitors.

    Plus, the midicholorian count would only prove that he's strong in the Force, not that he's evil or a Sith.

    Plus, they'd have to figure that it'd be pretty hard to get a sample of his midichlorians. He's the chancellor. He's presumably pretty heavily guarded. Poking somebody is a pretty obvious thing. (And I don't know of anyone getting a midichlorian count from saliva.)

    Plus, if he is Force sensitive, he's probably going to sense that you're going to poke him, and that would mean that you most likely wouldn't be able to. So, the fact that he is Force sensitive would make it all but impossible for you to test that he is Force sensitive.

    Overall, I think the pros of testing him are so strongly outweighed by the cons that trying to test him would not only be a bad idea but also a foolish move by the Jedi.
  2. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    I'm not sure that I would go that far. I think it's more that they were understandably complacent because of their circumstances. You know from our previous discussion that I generally agree with that you're saying. The Jedi have become too dogmatic and too resistant to change or to other viewpoints. (Qui-Gon's friction with the Council shows this. The Council disapproves of him for thinking outside the box, but in the end, who's right? Apparently Qui-Gon since he becomes Yoda's master.)

    Still, I don't think I would really call it arrogance. The Jedi have come up with a way to deal with conflict, and it's understandable that they think their way is correct since the Sith haven't shown their heads in a millenia. They think plucking Force sensitive kids from their families and training them so that they aren't drawn to the dark side is working. Their evidence is that there doesn't seem to be any Sith around. In the past, the Sith weren't known for their patience. So the fact that they haven't popped up is credible evidence that the Jedi are being successful.

    The Jedi are sort of like the US or the Israeli government or any organization trying to prevent violence. We assume that since there hasn't been another 9/11-size attack and most of the top Al-Qaeda leaders are dead that our approach to fighting terrorism is working. Since we think it's working we keep doing what we've been doing -- shooting them with drones, gathering good intelligence, implementing safety precautions. Since Iron Dome and the wall seem to be working for Israeli and attacks have dropped to a trickle, the Israelis believe they've guaranteed their safety.

    The Jedi are doing the same thing. They think they are keeping the Sith in check, but the Sith have the advantage. Since the Jedi don't ever change their approach, the Sith can watch and find weaknesses in the Jedi's ways of maintaining order.

    The Jedi's main mistake is that they've become too predictable. They need to constantly change and alter their ways of maintaining order so that the Sith always have a moving target, but at the same time, they are afraid to do that b/c they think why change something that's working. If it's working, then changing may cause the Sith problem to arise once more.

    So, personally, I wouldn't go as far as to call that arrogance. I would say instead that it's simply an error in strategy.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Apr 24, 2013
  3. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 7
    That fits well with the novelization:

    There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

    It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

    It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

    It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

    It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

    In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

    Finally, he saw the truth.

    This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

    just--

    didn't--

    have it.

    He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

    He had lost before he was born.

    The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

    They had become new.

    While the Jedi--

    The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

    The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter the light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when the war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

    He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

    Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is ...
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Apr 24, 2013
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  4. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4
    Thanks for posting this. I hope that you had some way to cut and paste that and that you didn't have to type all of that out! There isn't a free copy of the novelization online, is there?

    (BTW did that passage really have Yoda thinking: "Hmmm, a problem this is..."? I'm not sure that's the best writing :))
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Apr 24, 2013
  5. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    In the movie, Obi-Wan told Anakin that he thought the spy mission was a bad idea. Yet, both Yoda and Mace seemed to be against the idea of Anakin acting as their spy and it was Obi-Wan arguing for Anakin to be assigned the mission.
  6. Cushing's Admirer Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 7
    I have always thought it was because they expected him to put 'duty' before 'friendship' they simply wanted to use Anakin. Didn't work out well, did it?
  7. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4

    ^ This


    If they got Palpatine's blood sample, that wouldn't prove he's a Sith in any way. All it would show is that he is a Force-sensitive who's never been trained.

    Also, in a real world situation, I think it's highly unlikely that a law enforcement group could, for instance, demand a blood sample from every elected member of Congress and the President without a great great deal of evidence to support the release of such private information. If the majority of politicians agreed to this invasion of privacy, they would set a precedent that would allow future groups to demand on a whim the release of any personal information from Congressmen that that group demands. Politicians would never agree to living under this type of a "surveillance state." Most politicians don't even want to allow people to know about who donates to their campaigns, let alone things like the genetic material in their blood samples.
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  8. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4

    Yes, but...in a real world situation there aren't powers that are granted to an 'elite' that can be discovered by means of a blood test.... yeah [face_sigh]
    Last edited by only one kenobi, Feb 4, 2014
  9. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4

    But again, a blood test, even if they allowed it, wouldn't prove that he's a Sith. It would only prove that he's an untrained Force Sensitive.

    Here's the way I see it:

    If it's unlawful to be a Sith and to govern as Chancellor (which is debatable; even if there's some ancient law on the books, it questionable that it would be enforced, especially in a time of war), then the Jedi would need more than a midi-chlorian test. They would need irrefutable evidence that Palpatine is a Sith, and the Jedi don't have that. Plus, if they did have that evidence, then a blood test really wouldn't be necessary.

    If it's lawful to be a Sith and to govern (or if the Courts refused to enforce the anti-Sith law considering that that last time the Sith were around was 1,000 years before Palpatine), then it wouldn't matter what a blood test found since Palpatine could be a Force-sensitive or even a Force-sensitive Sith and remain in power.

    (BTW can we be polite and drop the "sighs"? I just like having good discussions.)
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Feb 4, 2014
  10. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    First of all...the sigh wasn't directed in any way at you. I was just reading back the sentence I had written...midiclorians, genetic elites; it is that that i am sighing at. Sorry if you took it as a personal affront.

    Whether or not it would be illegal to be a Sith (though if there really was, as GL says, a previous oppressive Sith Empire then one would imagine that it would not be...welcome news) it would, at least, make things clear to the Jedi. I mean, as Qui-Gon says to Schmi...had Anakin been born in the Republic he would have been discovered. So, how has Palpatine gone undiscovered? It certainly raises questions.
  11. darth ladnar Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 4

    All is cool.

    You make a good point about Palpatine not being tested when he was young. The only explanation I can imagine is that his father didn't want him to be tested. Papa Palpatine was an important politician on Naboo, and he may have had the sway to prevent his son from being tested. From the "Darth Plagueis" novel it is clear that Papa Palpatine always thought there was something off about his son, even at a very early age, so maybe he didn't want his son to be targeted as a warped person who was very powerful in the Force. (As Palpatine grew older, he learned to conceal his nasty side.)
  12. May_The_Force_Be_With_You Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 21, 2014
    star 1
    The bottom line was they had Anakin watch Palpatine because they were suspicious of him and wanted one of their own on the inside. Unfortunately for them, the only option they had was Anakin. Any other Jedi, Palpatine probably would have resented the action and saw it as an offense or over stepping of their power. With Anakin, a "friend" of his, they could play it off like they were concerned for Palpatine's protection and give him a Jedi to watch over him. A good friend, so it doesn't feel like a Jedi spy was reporting back to the Council.

    My annoyance is with the fact that they knew the "dark side surrounds the chancellor". Plus, Dooku says the Sith run the Senate. Even if one dismisses that maybe it isn't meant to be literal and the the Sith Lord's presence near Palpatine is what is meant by the dark side surrounding him. Um....that is still shows that Palpatine is working for, being bribed by, under the thrall of their enemy. Why the hell would the Jedi carry out his orders? Surely - if Palpatine is being manipulated by Sidious - they are inadvertently working for the Sith. It'd be one thing if they didn't know that, but Mace and Yoda and Obi-Wan keep repeating how they know that Palpatine is no good.

    And yes - I understand that was the point. To show how blinded they were. But the problem was...they weren't blind. They knew that Palpatine was somehow connected to the Sith. So any help to Palpatine was in a tacit way helping their enemy. You'd think more Jedi (besides Dooku) would refuse to carry out the orders of Senate. It's a shame they didn't show that. It might have made that rushed ascension into power in episode 3 a bit more believable.

    Then again..."the dark side surrounds the chancellor" is a very...vague and spiritual descriptor. For all we know, the dark side surrounds all evil people (not just Sith). Maybe if Mace stood in front of Jabba, he'd say the dark side surrounds him too? And in the case of the chancellor, it has no connection to the Sith, but simply a statement that Palpatine was a bad individual. Just another corruptable politician....
  13. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    The Jedi have absolutely no reason to trust Dooku's claims; in fact, they have every reason to distrust the Count, as Yoda himself lampshades in AOTC.

    As for Mace's remark that the dark side surrounds Palpatine, it's a pretty clumsy line from the movie, I'll grant you. But, three things to consider: First, Mace and co. were already distrustful of Palpatine and putting him under scrutiny. Second, Yoda senses the dark side within Dooku in AOTC but Mace can only sense the dark side around Palpatine, suggesting that perhaps Palpatine was continuing to conceal his true nature. Third, I doubt the Jedi could disregard the directives of their commander-in-chief without consequence.
  14. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2014
    star 4
    The Jedi are blind, Yoda admits this at the end of AOTC. You're right they shouldn't trust Dooku's claims yet Windu says dumb crap like, "You know my lady, Count Dooku was once a Jedi, he couldn't assassinate anyone, it's not in his character". The other Jedi, Ki Mundi Adi (i think) says "he's a political idealist, not a murderer". What kind of crap is that? The Jedi are so confident in their teachings yet when people do turn away they think those individuals are beyond reproach.

    I realize the Jedi were between a rock and a hard place with Palps and Anakin, but the fact that they couldn't discern this or what was going on in Anakin's personal life with Padme kinda shows you why all this happened in the first place.
  15. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I think Obi-Wan was mainly responsible for pushing the idea, despite his protestations to Anakin.
  16. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2014
    star 4
    I don't know, I think Yoda and Mace were the one's pushing Obi-Wan. They seem to be the one's who make or push the major decisions.
  17. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    The dark side surrounds all people . . . period. An individual can either allow it to control him or her. Or that person can learn how to control it.


    Can you explain why Obi-Wan was trying to convince both Yoda and Mace to agree with the idea of Anakin acting as a spy against Palpatine, before Yoda departed for the Wookie homeworld?




    Thanks to Obi-Wan's comments in ANH, many SW fans had expected the Jedi to be these all-wise and all-powerful beings. After 30-40 years, these same fans seemed to have great difficulty accepting the idea that the Jedi were flawed - especially Yoda and Obi-Wan.

    Why on earth would they easily discern what was going on in Anakin's personal life with Padme, when he was barely with her during the Clone Wars?
  18. CT-867-5309 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5

    Yeah, they have reason to distrust Dooku's claims. But dismiss? No, they're just too shocking to dismiss. What if it's true? The consequences are too great to not take very seriously.

    Wow. What's dumb about saying assassination is not in someone's character? What's crap about saying someone is not a murderer? Would you not say these same things about almost anyone you know? I mean, assuming you don't know many assassins or murderers.

    Dooku was one of them. They knew him, he was family.

    If someone, say, accused my brother of assassination, I'd say the same thing. I'd laugh, like Mace did, because it would just sound so absurd. Most people, if not everyone, would respond this way.

    It has little to do with their confidence in their teachings, and it's not because they think "those individuals" are beyond reproach. It's about Dooku.

    It's because they think they know Dooku, and the idea that Dooku blew up a ship to try to kill Padme does not fit with what they know of him.

    What reason do they have to believe otherwise? Padme doesn't even seem to have a reason, that line just comes out of nowhere, this is the first we're even hearing about Dooku, we haven't even seen him. If Padme has a reason, we don't know it.

    There are plenty examples of Jedi blindness and arrogance, this isn't one of them.

    Obi-Wan is trying to reassure them about Anakin in general. Mace flat out says he doesn't trust Anakin, and both Mace and Yoda express their doubts about the prophecy and Anakin's role in it. Obi-Wan is just sticking up for Anakin.

    I think you're way off base with this idea.

    This is ridiculous. If this is what that line was meant to convey, then there's literally no reason to say it.

    The line is very obviously, in an extremely heavy handed way, pointing out that there's something fishy about Palpatine.

    Mace isn't pointing out a fact of life.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Furthermore, the idea that Palpatine's high midichlorian count wouldn't be a glaring red light to the Jedi is just beyond absurd. It doesn't even matter if it's lawful or unlawful to be a Sith Chancellor, it's still alarming. It doesn't matter what they can prove, this information would be a huge eye opener.

    To make it seem like the test is hardly even worth doing, to marginalize its value, is just ridiculous.
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Feb 7, 2014
  19. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2014
    star 4
    The problem lies in thinking that you know a person (in this case Dooku). No one fully knows a person and what they're capable of. Just because you spend a lot of time with a person doesn't mean you know their thought processes and what they can do. What some people do in private can be very different than what they portray in public, take many drug addicts and alcoholics for example.

    I'm currently reading a book where in one chapter a woman said her husband committed suicide and she never suspected that he could do that. He was never depressed, liked his job, they had money, no history of problems or current one's etc.

    The point of murderers is a good example, because people who do those things don't go around talking about it, unless they want to go to jail. See the movie The Iceman which is based on a true story. A wife didn't know her husband was a killer, they had two kids and had been married over 10 years I believe.
  20. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    I disagree that an allegation should be seriously considered simply by virtue of its shock value.

    If we consider the EU, Yoda says in Labyrinth of Evil that the Jedi "looked hard" at the Senate and considered Dooku's words. If we disregard the EU, the ability to conceal oneself so utterly as Palpatine manages is exceptionally rare and possibly unprecedented. Obi-Wan dismisses the notion that a Sith Lord could operate so closely to the heart of the Republic and the Jedi without detection and Mace, even when sensing the dark side around Palpatine, doesn't seem to seriously believe that the Chancellor is the Sith until Palpatine confesses to Anakin.

    To say nothing of the fact that all Dooku says is that "hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious" which doesn't actually implicate Palpatine at all.
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Feb 7, 2014
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  21. Cryogenic Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2005
    star 5
    I don't know the answer, but I DO know that Anakin's mission of SPYING satisfyingly ties into larger motifs concerning SURVEILLANCE, WATCHING, and SPECTATORSHIP at work in the PT / THE SAGA. Pretty neat, huh?
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    They don't dismiss it entirely. Yoda points out that as a Sith Lord, he will do whatever it takes to create tension between the Jedi and the Senate. Mace says that regardless of that, they will keep an eye on the Senate just in case. Fast forward to ROTS and they realize that they cannot trust Palpatine anymore and thus the story goes.

    They discount the notion because they don't want to entertain the idea that Dooku has turned to the dark side and thus will do things that only a Sith Lord would do. Padme accuses Dooku because of the growing threat of the Separatist movement, which is why the Senate was discussing passing legislation for creating an army for the Republic. Padme was part of the Loyalist Committee which was dedicated to opposing such actions.

    This is true. The dark side surrounds those who are corrupt and evil. It was doing that around Palpatine, Tarkin and others. Mace could sense this with each passing day which is why he expressed his feelings. He just didn't know why he felt it was surrounding Palpatine.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Feb 10, 2014
  23. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    I agree with this.


    In terms of the first part, I don't understand why it would be a case of not wanting to entertain the idea of Dooku turning to the darkside. I'd say that, having known him, that they have no reason to entertain the idea.

    The second part is...confusing. So, if Dooku is a danger to the Republic and Padmé believes he may be planning military action against the Republic...why would she consider herself - who opposed an army of the Republic, the creation of which would enable the Republic to counter any military dominance the Separatists may (in this scenario) have - a target of assassination. Why would Dooku be trying to assassinate someone who, essentially, keeps the Republic militarily weak? I just don't see any logical reasoning behind her suspicions.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    The Jedi don't want to entertain the notion because they believed that with Dooku having been trained without attachments, a methodology that dated back over a thousand years, that he wouldn't have turned to the dark side following the Battle of Naboo. They were so certain in their ability to nip that in the bud, that they became overconfident. It is arrogance in thinking that they could prevent it from ever occurring again. Much less to a Jedi who had achieved the rank of Master and had proved himself quite capable of resisting temptation.


    She doesn't know why she is targeted, only that she is. She's looking at it as the fact that she is an important political figure in the Republic and like the Chancellor, a resident of Naboo. Target one Naboo citizen to hurt another.
  25. only one kenobi Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 4
    Or..as I said, that they knew him - and wasn't he supposed to be a mamber of the Council? - and had no reason to suspect that had turned.


    So...without any good reason, just some weird 'hunch'? Which is rendered an even more bizarre guess because she is attempting to avoid conflict between the parties. First, does she not think that pointing the finger regarding an attempted assassination of a Republic Senator at one of the leaders of the opposition would be likely to increase any possible conflict. Second...why would she be so set against a defensive army when she rather suspects that that opposition is bent on doing violence to the Republic?

    Essentially what we have here is, as far as the movies tell us, a young Senator who, for reasons unknown (without any evidence) suspects the leadership of the Separatists is trying to assassinate her, despite that she is arguing against an army that would counter Dooku were he actually set on war (so there is no logical route to her conclusion). Moreover, if she suspects that said Separatist leadership is capable of such actions....why is she so set against the Republic having a defence against such people?

    Ahh...but I get it. Padmé was right (though there is no logical reason that she could have known) and the Jedi, in their 'arrogance' were wrong...

    That's why I don't see it. Because logic plays no part in the way this story is being told.

    The Jedi are 'arrogant' because, without any good evidence to the contrary they see Dooku as being the same man as he was when they knew him. Whereas Padmé is 'insightful' because, without any good reason or logical route to suspicion she has fingered the culprit.

    Yep..I get it now..
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