PT Why did the Jedi Council push Anakin to watch Palpatine?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Slowpokeking, Mar 16, 2013.

Moderators: Bazinga'd
  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    He wasn't on the Council. But what he was was a Jedi, who left their order. Yes, they knew him, but it was their overconfidence in thinking that he wouldn't turn at this late a stage.

    The Loyalist Committee is against having an army period. They believe that by creating an army to fight for the Republic, they're turning their back on everything that the Republic stood for, for a thousand years.

    PADME: "What if the democracy we thought we were serving no longer exists, and the Republic has become the very evil we have been fighting to destroy?"

    ANAKIN: "I don't believe that. And you're sounding like a Separatist!"

    PADME: "Anakin, this war represents a failure to listen . . . Now, you're closer to the Chancellor than anyone. Please, please ask him to stop the fighting and let diplomacy resume."

    They opposed the army so that peaceful talks could continue and as the war was ending, she wanted push for a return to the status quo. That's why Bail is upset as the Grand Army Of The Republic is being deployed at the end of AOTC. Diplomacy is gone and now they're fighting a senseless war with many casualties. She'd rather negotiate than fight.

    And she was right in the end. That shows you how screwed up the Jedi were. They couldn't consider the possibility that Dooku changed in ten years, whereas Padme considered the attack was someone other than disgruntled miners.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  2. Ananta Chetan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 11, 2013
    star 4
    Palpatine manipulated the Council into doing so by fueling their fears and cunningly using their own weaknesses of character unknowingly against the Jedi to perpetuate them into making such a misguided decision.
    Last edited by Ananta Chetan, Feb 15, 2014
  3. Darth Maul Apprentice Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2014
    star 4
    After careful consideration, I think the council wanted Anakin to watch Palps, because Yoda can't see over Palps' desk.
  4. Kato Sai Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2014
    star 4
    Had the Council had more foresight, they would never have used Anakin to spy on Palpatine. Yes, Anakin was close to the Chancellor and thus it would have been potentially easier for Skywalker to spy. However, the Council should have known that Anakin and Palpatine were close and thus it could backfire considerably (and did) if Anakin refused to turn in the Chancellor. What is puzzling is that Mace Windu voiced that Anakin shouldn't be involved in apprehending his apprentice Ahsoka because of their bond, why did not the same advice and logic come into consideration for this task?
  5. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Obi-Wan does warn them, in the RoTS novel, that Anakin won't trust them again as a result.

    "I should have argued more strongly in Council today."
    "You think Skywalker won't be able to handle this?" Mace Windu said. "I thought you had more confidence in his abilities."
    "I trust him with my life," Obi-Wan said simply. "And that is precisely the problem."
    The other two Jedi Masters watched him silently while he tried to summon the proper words.
    "For Anakin," Obi-Wan said at length, "there is nothing more important than friendship. He is the most loyal man I have ever met - loyal beyond reason, in fact. Despite all I have tried to teach him about the sacrifices that are at the heart of being a Jedi, he - he will never, I think, truly understand."
    He looked over at Yoda. "Master Yoda, you and I have been close since I was a boy. An infant. Yet if ending this war one week sooner - one day sooner - were to require that I sacrifice your life, you know I would."
    "As you should," Yoda said. "As I would yours, young Obi-Wan. As any Jedi would any other, in the cause of peace."
    "Any Jedi," Obi-Wan said, "except Anakin."
    Yoda and Mace exchanged glances, both thoughtfully grim. Obi-Wan guessed they were remembering the times Anakin had violated orders - the times he had put at risk entire operations, the lives of thousands, the control of entire planetary systems - to save a friend.
    More than once, in fact, to save Obi-Wan.
    "I think," Obi-Wan said carefully, "that abstractions like peace don't mean much to him. He's loyal to people, not to principles. And he expects loyalty in return. He will stop at nothing to save me, for example, because he thinks I would do the same for him."
    Mace and Yoda gazed at him steadily, and Obi-Wan had to lower his head.
    "Because," he admitted reluctantly, "he knows I would do the same for him."
    "Understand exactly where your concern lies, I do not." Yoda's green eyes had gone softly sympathetic. "Named your fear must be, before banish it you can. Do you fear that perform his task, he cannot?"
    "Oh, no. That's not it at all. I am firmly convinced that Anakin can do anything. Except betray a friend. What we have done to him today ..."
    "But that is what Jedi are," Mace Windu said. That is what we have pledged ourselves to: selfless service -"
    Obi-Wan turned to stare once more toward the assault ships that would carry Yoda and the clone battalions to Kashyyyk, but he could see only Anakin's face.
    If he asked me to spy on you, do you think I would do it?
    "Yes, he said slowly. "That's why I don't think he will ever trust us again."
    He found his eyes turning unaccountably hot, and his vision swam with unshed tears.
    "And I'm not entirely sure he should."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, May 5, 2014
    timmoishere and Kato Sai like this.
  6. Kato Sai Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2014
    star 4
    Thanks for producing that except from the ROTS Book Iron_lord. Obi-Wan is indeed wise. The line, "He is loyal to people, not principles," will stay with me.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  7. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 3
    I disagree to a point. Up to the point that they ask Anakin to spy, Anakin was not "already firmly (in) the grasp of the Sith". Example look at the opera scene in ROTS. This scene takes place after the Council has asked Anakin to spy. In this scene we see Palpatine try to pick at Anakin as to how he feels about the Jedi Council. It gets to the point to where Palpatine tries to blur the lines between the Jedi and Sith, to which Anakin shows he is not ready to cross that line on the philosophy that Palpatine was trying to put out. That's when Palpatine starts planting the seeds of the Dark Side allowing people to save their loved ones. Palpatine realizes that he is only going to win Anakin through his emotions for Padme, and not trying to get him to switch on the Philosophical Ambiguities (holy **** I spelled that right the firs time), between the two sides. So no, I don't agree that Anakin was already firmly in Palpatines grasp, definitely heading there, but not quite yet.
  8. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 3
    The Jedi are very suspicious of Palpatine right from the start of Attack of the Clones. We have the conversation between Obi Wan and Anakin in Padme's apartment where Obi Wan lectures Anakin about Palpatine being a politician. However, even before that and a scene I always love to point out is in Palpatine's office. It's the conversation where Palpatine suggests that the jedi protect Padme, just take a peek at the look that Yoda flashes Palpatine as he is talking. I am not saying Yoda thinks Palpatine is a Sith Lord, however, Yoda's expression does tell a story that Yoda does not trust Palpatine and thinks he is up to something.

  9. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    To me, that scene is a perfect example of just how much Palpatine has Anakin wrapped around his little finger: First he “re-establish” Anakin’s devotion to him by stroking his ego, saying the Jedi must be fools if they do not give Anakin the assignment to hunt down Grievous. Anakin, as usual, is very receptive to that. Then he moves to stage two in which he first tests Anakin’s loyalty to the Jedi Order, and once Anakin has proven that his loyalty is wavering he then moves on to further create/reinforce Anakin’s doubts in the Jedi, and while Anakin disputes the argument the Jedi and Sith are much alike it is obvious that he is merely quoting Jedi teachings and is less certain about his own conviction. At last he tops it off by creating a desire within Anakin – a desire for a power that can only be achieved through the Dark side.

    So the way I see it, Palpatine’s move to tell Anakin about Darth Plagueis is not a plan B he had to set into motion, but rather a goal he intended to reach from the very start. Also IMO, AotC and RotS clearly shows Anakin as being firmly under Palpatine’s sway in that not once does Anakin question Palpatine’s motivations or actions – Palpatine had to practically throw it in his face that he was the Sith lord before Anakin connects the dots.


    But that’s just my interpretation.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The thing about Plagueis is that it comes up because of Padme. Anakin doesn't know Palpatine is a Sith and thus should guard his thoughts and feelings around him. The moment Palpatine caught on, that's when he decided to start in on his former Master.
  11. 2Cleva Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 4
    Much of the PT talked about the breakdown in politics but glossed over the breakdown of the Jedi. Stuck in their ways, they didn't see the value of community - instead it was about following their principles that had been perverted and diluted over time.

    To borrow a line from another saga - sometimes "the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the many".

    Its a lesson the Jedi never fully understood. The Jedi don't have the foundation of community/love that the Skywalkers had. Anakin was right to a degree in AOTC. The Jedi should have been encouraging to love. Its also the reason why Luke was able to bring Anakin back and defeat the Sith. He relied on the love of his father - an illogical, non-Jedi trait, to save him and in turn everyone. Its the same reason why Anakin defeated Palpatine.

    In short - the Jedi pushed Anakin because years without a threat they too became stuck in bureaucracy and their misguided ways. Its also a reason why Anakin brought balance to the Force - by wiping out the misguided Jedi and the Sith.
  12. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    The Jedi don't have a foundation of community? And here I thought the Jedi were one big happy family.

    To be slightly less tongue in cheek, Anakin's idea of "encouraging to love" happens to be a definition that suits him. But there's many ways of loving, and some of it is more "a community" than a singular "one." Neither is wrong, really, just different.

    The Jedi are allowed to love - just not form romantic attachments - and the key here is "attachments." The problem is all these different definitions of "attachments" and many who dislike the PT Jedi see it as a very western view - i.e. basically merely "romantic love."
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, May 6, 2014
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  13. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    Padme is a member of a faction that's pushing for negotiation with the Separatists and a peaceful resolution to the conflict. Maybe Dooku is trying to kill Padme because he doesn't want a peaceful resolution to the conflict and a reconciliation with the Republic; he wants to break away from the Republic at any cost. Or at least that may be Padme's thought process; we know the real reason was because Nute Gunray had allied with Dooku.
  14. 2Cleva Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 4
    Its not just romantic attachments. Its any attachment. Loving the idea but not the individuals. Both Anakin and Luke loved the people - and its what saved them all. Typically - Jedi had no understanding of that.

    The first key sign of the issue is in TPM when the Council is testing Anakin. His love for his mother they believed was a bad thing - love - to fear - anger - dark side. Which turned out to be true, not with his mother but with a romantic love. Yoda repeated that same mistake with Luke on Dagobah in discouraging him for saving his friends. Still a love/attachment. That's why they both thought Luke was done and they were moving on to Leia (considering she was trapped - that's another story/thread). But Luke was able to maintain his attachment and still stay true.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  15. The_Phantom_Calamari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2011
    star 4

    What are you talking about? Luke nearly turned to the dark side--and then nearly died--because he rushed to save his friends. Yoda was absolutely right.
  16. 2Cleva Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2002
    star 4
    Nearly died? Close doesn't count. Luke was right and successful.
  17. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Hmm: one example "proves" the Jedi were right (Anakin) and one "disproves" (Luke). Guess the evidence is overwhelming.

    Seriously, though, you don't think Obi-Wan cared for Qui-Gon? Yoda, Mace, et al cared about nothing because to care about something is "attachment" and wrong?

    Now, perhaps I'm totally wrong here, but the idea stated in someone's post above (or another thread?) quoted the ROTS novel about Anakin caring not a whit about principles but about people.

    I'd argue EITHER extreme is extreme (and I'm talking consistent actions, not the occasional action). If you sacrifice your principles, you lack a moral center, IMHO. If all you care about is principles, you will lose your compassion.
    only one kenobi likes this.
  18. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Yoda was right and wrong. Luke was right and wrong. One should learn to leave behind attachments . . . when the time and the moment calls for one to do so.




    Due to my low opinion of the novel, I usually don't pay attention to it.




    Is this the scene in which Palpatine told Anakin that the Jedi and the Sith were two sides of one coin? Because I believe he was right.
    Last edited by DRush76, May 7, 2014
  19. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 3
    I see your points, however let me counter with this. We all pretty much regurgitate the things that we are taught and that we agree with. Anakin does the same thing in AOTC with his obvious teachings from Palpatine. Remember the meadow picnic where Anakin suggests that there be only one leader that forces people to get along. Those are obviously Palpatines teachings that he regurgitates because he agrees with what he was taught.

    In both AOTC and ROTS we see Anakin regret doing things he knows are wrong, not because he was taught they were wrong, but, because he knows they are morally wrong. Even when he sits in silence on Mustafar he has tears of regret. So I don't exactly agree that Palpatine has him wrapped around his finger just yet, because Anakin knows that the things Palpatine has told to do him are wrong.

    So I agree with you that Palpatine was trying to drive the wedge between Anakin and the Council with probing him for info on the spying and then telling him that he should be the one that goes to get Grievous. However, I think that Anakin was being genuine when he re-buffs Palpatine's lecture that the Sith and Jedi are basically the same (blurring the lines between the 2 sides). Once Anakin re-buffs Palpatine on that point, we see there is a bit of an awkward silence between the 2 of them before Palpatine starts in with the Plagueis legend.

    To go further into the movie, when Palpatine reveals himself to be the Sith Lord and even tells Anakin that he can save Padme, Anakin still just doesn't jump onto the Sidious bandwagon, Anakin pulls his Sabre, and even tells Palpatine he would like to kill him. That point isn't even up to debate because Sidous agrees that he can feel that Anakin wants to kill him. Anakin then goes to inform the Jedi of what has transpired. Again suggesting that Anakin is not totally in Palpatines hip pocket just yet. What does it take for Anakin to fully join palpatine? The threat of losing the information that Anakin thinks Palpatine has that could save Padme. Obviously it isn't because Anakin thinks Mace would be wrong for killing a "defenseless" Sith Lord, as per dooku. If you listen to what Anakin says to Mace before he chops his hand off "I need him". If Anakin was truly wrapped around Palpatine fingers than I would think Anakin would have been a little more accepting of Palpatine once Palpatine revealed himself.

    So I just don't agree he has Anakin wrapped around his finger. My last bit of Evidence on that point, remember what Anakin tells Padme, that he is more powerful, and that he can overthrow Palpatine. Again, suggests that Anakin while he agrees with Palpatine on some/many things, at the end of the day Anakin was using Palpatine for Anakins own greedy interests.
    only one kenobi and Valairy Scot like this.
  20. mikeximus Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 6, 2012
    star 3
    I don't ever remember him saying that in any of the movies. In the opera scene Palpatine tells Anakin that the Jedi and Sith are alike:

    Sidious: "The Sith and the Jedi are Similar in almost every way, including their quest for greater power"

    Anakin rebuffs this Sidious statement by saying that the Sith think inward only worrying about themselves, and the Jedi are selfless only worrying about others.

    This is the scene I was talking about where Palpatine tries to blur the lines between the Jedi and Sith and Anakin doesn't agree with that. Anakin voices what Lucas has said about the Sith and Jedi:

    (Source: Of Myth and Men Interview)
    MOYERS: Do you know yet what, in a future episode, is going to transform Anakin Skywalker to the dark side?
    LUCAS: Yes, I know what that is. The groundwork has been laid in this episode. The film is ultimately about the dark side and the light side, and those sides are designed around compassion and greed. The issue of greed, of getting things and owning things and having things and not being able to let go of things, is the opposite of compassion--of not thinking of yourself all the time. These are the two sides--the good force and the bad force. They're the simplest parts of a complex cosmic construction.
    only one kenobi likes this.
  21. Darth Cyn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2014
    star 1
    Because the jedi know nothing about human psychology.
  22. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    That's what I had meant about the Jedi and the Sith being two sides of one coin. And when you add that a former Jedi Master was the founder of Palpatine's Sith Order . . .
  23. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Too me, Anakin is not simply regurgitating Palpatine’s teachings for not only is the idea of an all-powerful leader who can easily make decisions that will make the Galaxy a better place a line of thought that he agrees on, but something he truly, deeply believes in (and a position he would like to have): from AotC and RotS it is clear that Anakin wants the freedom to do what he wants to do – what he thinks is right – and not be limited or prevented in doing so by rules and regulations. For instance, I think that deep down Anakin always resented the fact that he simply couldn’t simply go to Tatooine and free all the slaves as he desired to do as a child.

    I see your point as well, but I think we’re not entirely on the same page. When I say wrapped around his little finger I mean that Palpatine knows exactly how to manipulate Anakin into doing what he want's him to do. When I watch the movies I never see a situation in which Anakin behaves or responds in a way Palpatine doesn’t anticipate. Palpatine knows exactly what buttons to push to eventually make Anakin move from A to B, and then it doesn’t really matter Anakin knows what he is doing is wrong – he still does what Palpatine tells him to do.

    And that Anakin wants to overthrow Palpatine once he’s gotten what he wants does not dispute my point: killing your master is the way of the Sith, so Palpatine knew Anakin would eventually challenge him, and while Anakin may think he is using Palpatine it is in reality the other way around.

    You are free to disagree, I'm merely where my perception on Anakin and Palpatine's relationship stems from.[face_peace]
  24. only one kenobi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2012
    star 3

    I thank you for that quote - because that, to me, has always been the essence of the darkside of the Force - that it is about greed, about selfishness. If I might regurgiatet another of Lucas' quotes

    From the Bill Moyers interview

    Lucas: Well yeah, I mean that story has also been retold .. the temptation.. i mean, Buddha was tempted in the same way. It's all through mythology. ... I didn't want to invent a religion.


    From what I've gathered about the Mortis storyline, and other elements of TCW (and from the PT itself), I think Lucas sort of...forgot this aspect and has moved towards inflicting (I use the term deliberately) a quasi-religious invention into the story.
  25. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    "In Revenge of the Sith, Anakin makes a Faustian pact with the devil, and I do everything I can to use him as raw material in every sense to become the best apprentice yet. So even when he's horribly savaged from the fight and it's not clear if he'll live, he's reborn as this Frankenstein monster. Sidious then realizes Vader will be an even greater asset because his humanity has been mechanized, which is exactly what happens to people when they are seduced by Fascism."

    --Ian McDiramid, Homing Beacon interview, 2005.


    "The problem is that Anakin more or less sells his soul to the devil, and in doing so is FED A BUNCH OF PROPAGANDA, which HE IS FORCED TO BELIEVE BECAUSE OF THE POSITION HE'S IN. But it's all actually A CON, so you can be very sympathetic if you allow yourself to be DECEIVED BY THE CON as well."

    --Hayden Christensen, Star Wars Insider #82


    "So we have this little picnic where Anakin brings out the uncomfortable subject of previous boyfriends which boys have a tendency to do, and then we get into this political discussion which allows us to get a little insight into Anakin and Palpatine's influence over Anakin and some of his thought process."

    --George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.


    Anakin does believe in it whole heartedly, but he also has been sorta conditioned into believing that. The further along he goes, the more he continues to deceive himself into thinking it is right because he tries to see things in a stark and rigid way, that he cannot see the bigger picture.
Moderators: Bazinga'd