PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

Movie time is always a funny thing in the Saga. Yoda had a enough time to take a Jedi Fighter to Kamino and inspect the army. Just as it took time for Mace to round up all 212 Jedi, form a basic strategy and then had to Geonosis.

The mystery was resolved for the audience when Dooku was called Tyranus by Palpatine. The Jedi only have it resolved either in TCW, or if you don't accept that, when Order 66 is given and they realize that the Sith were behind it all.

 

the best way is to 'road-test' it . The clones showed themselves to be loyal and reliable and totally loyal to the republic , the jedi may have been concerned at the start but by the time of ROTS they served and died with the jedi for 3 years .

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Oh the mystery was resolved for the Jedi by being destroyed by them.

 

Pretty much if you ignore TCW.

 

The mystery was solved at the end of AOTC. What the Jedi know and don't know is irrelevant for you to know what's going on given the clues and information provided.

 

Indeed. The film provides a number of hints.

Opening scroll: "Senator Amidala, the former Queen of Naboo, is returning to the Galactic Senate to vote on the critical issue of creating an army of the Republic to assist the overwhelmed Jedi..."

Mace Windu: "...you must realize there aren't enough Jedi to protect the Republic. We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers."

Count Dooku: "...we shall have an army greater than any in the galaxy. The Jedi will be overwhelmed. The Republic will agree to any demands we make."

Bail Organa: "The Commerce Guilds are preparing for war. There can be no doubt of that."


The situation was growing desperate and they had to think on their feet. They weren't willing to surrender control to the Separatists, so they did what they felt they had to do.

 

It's also worth mentioning that this mentality of peacekeeping and scholarly duty that the Jedi were focused on prior to the Clone Wars made them far less equipped (at least in the beginning of the war) to be geared towards martial strength which meant that they had to be supplemented by a force which was: the clone armies.

 

Some crackpot had a holonet podcast proclaiming the Chancellor actually staged a war to establish authoritarian rule. But he based it off a Wookieeleaks hack perpetrated by the Separatists.

OB1: Send a message to the old folk's home.
I've discovered that Chancellor Palpatine is using Count Dooku to not only lead the Separatists into a Confederation that finds the time to hire assassins for one specific Senator due to butthurt while also planning for a war that offers little value for these Separatists.

Dooku financed the Clone Army as well, so they essentially own both armies and will have them fight each other so they can surprise kill us later.

Palpatine is the Sith Master. Dooku his apprentice that replaced Maul. But Palps plans to backstab Dooku so he can get Anakin, even though he really doesn't need Anakin to become Emperor.

Hello? HELLO?

Mace: Do you know how f'n stupid you sound right now? Say Palpatine's the Sith Lord one more time.

Spoiler

Heard this crackpot ended up talking to himself as a hermit on a desert planet. Probably thinks some Chosen One is going to save the day 23 years later. That's what happens when you join a cult.

 

Yoda was satisfied enough after an initial inspection to take the army to Geonosis. After that the clones proved their worth and continued to do so for three years. Works fine for me. The movies give me all the information I need in this instance, and in general the clone situation greatly enhances my appreciation of a core Star Wars trait I've often found a bit blah and boring in the stormtroopers.

 

...huh? The film's plot is "irrelevant" to the viewer? Oh..okay.

 

Since I never said the film's plot is irrelevant to the viewer, no.

 

The mystery behind the clone army is a key plot point of the film. How is that information irrelevant to Martoto77 ?

 

Who said it was irrelevant to him? Read what I wrote.

 

Yes, the word 'irrelevant' is part of my comment. Now read the whole comment.

 

It was desperation to stop the Separatists and the fact that the Jedi Order serves the Senate. Palpatine had the authority to create an army, and the Jedi knew of where to get one. Admittedly, they should not have put up with the Clone Army for the whole war.

 

How Yoda determined the clones to be bona fide and suitable for battle at such short notice, contrary to his stated beliefs and attitudes, is relevant.

To try and maintain otherwise is ludicrous.

 

I adore this post, as I do most posts by I Are The Internets.

 

Imo, "they are totally obedient, taking any order without question" is enough to reject the clones, to refuse to employ them.

It's a simple risk assessment, and one can come up with several logical possibilities that are simply unacceptable.

I've always thought it was pretty dumb, especially when you add the above to the army's mysterious origin and connection to Jango, but was able to accept it based on necessity and the difficulty and chaos of the situation.

 

[quote="CT-867-5309]How Yoda determined the clones to be bona fide and suitable for battle at such short notice, contrary to his stated beliefs and attitudes, is relevant.

To try and maintain otherwise is ludicrous.[/quote]


He knows because they have combat techniques that they were educated in. He knows because Jango was a trained warrior and wouldn't be wasting his time on a bunch of keystone cops. He also helped train them. The clones would also be recorded in combat training exercises. Obi-wan did not sense any malicious intent and neither would Yoda.

Why? Wouldn't that be something expected of an army created for the Republic by a Jedi?

An origin that was tied to a Jedi that the Council trusted and Jango was hired ten years earlier. It'd be different if the clones were made within the last month.

 

You attributed my comments to Martoto.

No, not really. Do you think a Jedi would create soldiers to be so dangerously obedient? Maybe someone who has a low opinion of the PT Jedi would, but I don't.

It's dangerous for soldiers to be that obedient. This can be taken advantage of to do all kinds of terrible things (not just Order 66, there are all kinds of possibilities for misuse). There's a reason why we expect our soldiers to disobey unlawful orders.

A Jedi who did not have the permission of the Jedi Council, and Jango represents a conflict of interest; he works for their enemy (who knows for how long?), yet he was also the clone template and the Kaminoans keep him around (the EU also said he was heavily involved in their training). Add the fact that the clones are "totally obedient, taking any order without question", and I consider this very risky. I would expect the Jedi to be able to run a simple risk assessment, realize the obvious possibilities, and deem them unacceptable. I don't care if you would. It's an old debate.

 

My apologies on the confusion. I fixed it. Too many conversations at once.

The Clonetroopers were obedient to the Republic and the Jedi. It prevents them from being bribed by the Confederacy's agents.

Right, but still one that they trusted. They were aware that Sifo-Dyas feared that the Jedi would not be enough against a threat like the Separatists. They had kicked him off the Council because they disagreed with him. Yet, they still trusted him to be a Jedi up to his death.

He's a mercenary. He can work for anyone at any time. Even if they're on opposite sides.

The Jedi can choose to not work with them, but the Republic has chosen to use them. The minute Yoda and Mace tell Palpatine and key senators, the choice to use them was taken out of their hands. Especially once Palpatine is granted Emergency Powers. The Jedi have a choice, either let the Republic fall and do nothing, or use the Clone Army and work to prevent that.

 

No problem, I was more worried about covering for Martoto.

I hadn't even thought of the Confederacy at all, there's plenty of danger in the clone troopers being that obedient to the Republic.

The answer is obvious.

"Kill all Jedi on sight."
"Yes, sir! Right away!"

"Go into that school and kill everyone in it."
"Yes, sir! Right away!"

"Kill all Neimoidians on sight, they are enemies of the Republic."
"Yes, sir! Right away!"

And so on. This is all bad. There are many potential misuses. These are not irrational suspicions, they are logical possibilities when the clones are known to be totally obedient, to take any order without question.

lol this makes it worse, not better.

Indeed, it's a tough choice, which is why I've accepted it.

There are other options. The Jedi can serve independently of the clones, which has it's own problems. The Jedi can lobby to replace the clones with Republic volunteers, which also has its own problems. People can be conscripted, which has its own ethical difficulties.

There's also the idea that, considering the potential for misusing the clones, the Jedi should take charge of them to make sure no one misuses their absolute obedience.

And so on. It's a complex issue.

 

Since the Jedi were leading the clones, they could trust themselves not to go that far.

Not really. He cannot control the clones as he doesn't not work for the Republic.

 

The Jedi are not the only ones in command of the clones. The Supreme Chancellor is in ultimate command, and others may end up commanding the clones in some capacity. Putting utterly obedient killers in the hands of anyone is dangerous.

It could have gone like this:

Lama Su: They are totally obedient, taking any order without question.
Kenobi: Any order?
Lama Su: Yep.
Kenobi: Any order at all?
Lama Su: Well, yeah, from any lawful superior.
Kenobi: So if I told them to kill a bunch of innocents for no reason, they'd do it?
Lama Su: Yep.
Kenobi:.....that's bad.

Kenobi, being an ethical person, should have a problem with highly competent killers being unquestioningly obedient. I would. This is without even factoring in the whole idea of the clones being slaves and abominations, which we won't discuss as its not part of the thread topic.

Yeah, it's neat (think of the power! The efficiency!), but it's also dangerous and utterly perverse. It's not something to be played with.

Free will has its own problems, of course, but we prefer it, as free will and a moral conscience acts as a check on unlawful orders. We've seen what happens when it doesn't. The clones themselves are an intentional, direct reference to these eventualities. They are an illustration of what happens, what can go wrong, when you wield an army conditioned to be utterly, unquestioningly obedient. They're (later) called stormtroopers, after all.

I never said anything about Jango controlling the clones, but (according to Legends) he was involved in their training, their conditioning...but that's not even what I meant. What I meant was, it makes Jango even less trustworthy, not more.