PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

Because it's a valid assumption considering that the Jedi are presented with a lack of concrete information on the timing of his death.

Had they presented the timing of his death as a certainty instead of a possibility, then there would be no need to assume anything else.

What he said to Lama Su was: "Master Sifo-Dyas was killed almost 10 years ago."

What he said to Mace and Yoda was: "I was under the impression that he was killed before that."

Mace and Yoda don't refute nor clarify, therefore they probably also assume that.

But there is uncertainty (since it's nothing but an impression) and the Jedi don't clarify. So all we are left is that the date they have is an impression. An assumption. Nothing more.

Yes, precisely because they don't know who did it. If it was truly Sifo-Dyas or if it was someone else. It's a mystery and that's the point.

That's not evidence that they know. Quite the opposite.

So he assumes.

I don't know nor do I need to know. The burden is not on me. All I have is what's stated by the Jedi. And what's stated regarding the timing of his death is not certain nor conclusive.

All we know is that he died around that time. Before? After? We don't know. And as far as we know, neither do the Jedi. If you claim that they do know, feel free to prove it.

 

Not enough Jedi present. They had 212 Jedi at the Temple at all times. The rest of the ten thousand were scattered across the Republic and outside of it, handling various disputes caused by the Separatist movement.

The Jedi don't have capital ships to enforce a blockade. The Clonetroopers do and they arrive too late. The Droid Factory is underground. And killing a whole bunch of people in the coliseum is something that the Sith would do, not a Jedi.

Only Obi-wan considers it a victory and that is due to the fact that they drove the Separatists off of Geonosis and shut down their factory. He's not seeing the big picture which Yoda sees. That's why he rebukes him.

Just like a certain Jedi archivist.

If there's an attack, it's a battle. If you're in the middle of a firefight, it's a battle. Even in a rescue mission. What would you call it?

 

Spoiler

They had the navy for a planetary blockade. Why did they just go in swords a blazing?

They can essentially tell the Separatists to surrender without firing a shot. And if the Separatists don't surrender and try to escape ... The Republic has the *high ground*.

I agree that was the real motivation for the Jedi. Which is very un-Jedi like. So much attachment. Created a war out of it. Bare minimum - lost more Jedi than they saved.

Huh? That's what the Jedi did do. And Jedi v. Sith really is all over the place. Consider this:

Dooku actually did offer the Jedi a chance to surrender. The Jedi just kept hacking away at everything in front of their invasion. And their answer to a peaceful surrender was "see you in hell Dooku !!!" They didn't even start off in a lukewarm manner, like a blockade. They just whipped out the laser swords and went to town.

Not only was it unwise not to deeply investigate their clone army for 3 years, but the manner in which they used them was less than optimal.

All the more reason to start out in a blockade position. Give the Separatists a chance to surrender without any actual bloodshed. And definitely not at putting themselves at serious risk (like the initial Jedi attack force did). The war turning hot would then be in the hands of the Separatists, not the Jedi.

 

the clone army was the trojan horse of the story and so they had to accept them... and they didn't have their own trojan horse mythos... it's like how people in zombie stories usually don't see the zombie plague coming. it's always a shock. zombies didn't exist in the fiction in their universe.

(i realize this isn't a real explanation.)

 

It wasn't though. The reason they went there in such numbers was due to what Obi-Wan reported. They also wanted to help Obi-Wan, but saving him was not the main motivation.

 

Why are you quoting a whole bunch of stuff I didn't post? Those are Samuel Vines words.

 

Honest discussion?
That is rich coming from someone that refuses to accept movie dialogue that proves you wrong.
And you also have a double standard when it comes to proof, characters just being told something is not enough, they HAVE to specifically say that they believe it otherwise it doesn't count.
But this doesn't apply to any of your claims and you won't back up any of your wild speculations.

It is likely that I am wasting my time with you but I will give it one final try before ignoring you.

Obi-Wan is also talking about the date of the ordering of the clone army so the "before that" could refer to that date.
If Sifo-Dyas was killed nine years and ten months ago and the clone army was ordered nine years and eight months ago. Both are "almost ten years ago" but the former was before the latter.
And, when talking to Lama Su, he is just told about a Jedi that died about ten years ago.
When he is talking to Yoda and Mace, he has had some time to think a bit.
So he would be more sure about the date in the second scene than in the first.

Plus, Sifo-Dyas was KILLED, not just died.
Died is very general while killed is a bit more specific.
Killed implies a direct action.
So for Obi-Wan to say that then it follows that he knows HOW Sifo-Dyas died.
Either it was in battle, murder or in an accident.

If Obi-Wan is right then he DOES contradict Lama Su. And what Jango said also cast doubt on it.
So they have info that could contradict it and nothing that proves it to be true.

And if they don't know one way or the other.
Then they have a clone army that they don't know who is responsible for.
Isn't that a cause for them to be suspicious, worried, ask questions and be a bit careful?
Which is what this thread is about. The question asked early on is why they Jedi aren't more careful with the clones.
You responded with;

Which you seem to now back away from slightly.
So the Jedi don't know who is behind the clone army, reason to be cautious?

Why would Obi-wans knowledge of Sifo-Dyas come from the archives?
Obi-Wan was an active Jedi when Sifo-Dyas was killed.
And since he was a Jedi Master and sat on the council, I would imagine that this would be announced in the Jedi temple.
The alternative is that Obi-Wan is reading up on dead Jedi masters for no reason.
No, most likely, he is going on news that he heard about ten years ago.
So him being a little fuzzy on it is not strange.

Where is it shown that the Jedi can't confirm it?
The film shows them making no effort TO confirm it, which is my point.
Obi-Wan gives his report and then the issue is forgotten. Which makes the Jedi look clueless.
Obi-Wan could just have asked Mace and Yoda about it, which would take a few seconds.
But no.

And the Jedi KNOW that Lama Su was deceived. Lama Su was told by "Sifo-Dyas" that the senate gave the order, which is a lie. Lama Su also clearly thought that the Jedi knew all about these clones, which they didn't.

Here is double standard, I have to not only give dialogue from the film, this dialogue also has to be proven correct.
You however are under no such obligation.
There is NO dialogue were the Jedi say they believe Lama Su yet you have no problem using his dialogue.

Yes it would actually.
If someone says something that fits with what you know, there is no need to comment.
However if what is being said contradicts what you know, now there is much more reason to speak up.
Hence why Mace and Yoda NOT questioning or asking for more data supports my argument.
Remember, Yoda scolded Obi-Wan when he said "No, Master, there appears to be no motive."
And Yoda told Obi-Wan NOT to assume things.
So he isn't shy about speaking up.

So despite Yoda telling Obi-Wan NOT to assume things, you think that his very next action is to go right ahead and assume things? That makes sense.
Obi-Wan was just scolded so logically he would not bring this up unless he was reasonably sure of it.

Mace and Yoda does not know the exact date the army was ordered since Obi-Wan only says "Almost ten years ago".
So they know LESS than him.
And they don't ask for the exact date either. Why?
Nor do they question why Obi-Wan said what he did, what reason he has. Again given that Yoda just moments before scolded Obi-Wan, he would do so now unless it fits with what he knows.

Yes you are making stuff up. You argue that the Jedi might think that Jango is lying with no proof what so ever. All to discredit movie dialogue that proves you wrong.
And you seem to demand ALL dialogue be proven correct or have the characters say that they believe what they have just been told. Otherwise it does not count.
But only when I make an argument, you don't have to do this.

And I have a simple reason to say that they believe him, at no point is it implied that they think he is lying.
Why do you think Obi-Wan was asking leading questions about Sifo-Dyas? He was digging for information. And his reaction is "Really" and "Curious".

Jedi have mental powers, they can read the minds of others and also sense emotions.
So yes, I would say that Obi-Wan has a good chance to sense the lie.
And Jango would know better than try to lie to a Jedi.

Except that these reasons makes no sense.
The Jedi already know about Sifo-Dyas so that cat is out of the bag.
And Jango telling Obi-Wan that he was hired by Sifo-Dyas would harm the Jedi investigation as opposed to what he did say. Now the Jedi are aware that he doesn't know who Sifo-Dyas is and they know have a new name to look into, Tyrannus.
And given that the Sith made it look like Sifo-Dyas really did this despite it almost certainly was not.
Then they would order Jango to confirm that story, not say things that contradicts it.

So not only do you no basis for your assumption that Jango is lying, the reasons you give also make no sense.

Except that there is PLENTY to go by and the Jedi have several things to investigate.
1) Check the date of the order and Sifo-Dyas death.
2) Ask the Kamino people questions, such as. Did you meet "Sifo-Dyas" in person, did you see his face. Do you know who this Tyrannus is. Did "Sifo-Dyas" tell you who the clone template would be.
The last two could be interesting. If "Sifo-Dyas" told them who the clone template would be then it is really strange for Jango to be unaware of who he is and then it is also possible that this Tyrannus and "Sifo-Dyas" is actually the same person.
3) Follow the money. How was this paid for, all at once, over time etc.
These are things the Jedi can find out by simply asking the Kamino.
4) Show pictures to the Kamino people.
5) How much time was Jango on Kamino, how often did he leave?
6) Did they have anyone to contact in case of trouble?
7) When was the last time they spoke to "Sifo-Dyas", did anyone else contact them about the army?
8) Try to find out who tampered with their files instead of just mediating about it.

So they can do a lot.

You seem to not understand how investigations work, you start with a suspicion of wrongdoing and you investigate things that could be related.
Ex. the investigation of Donald Trump. Mueller is looking into contacts between Russians and people in the Trump camp. But he is also following the money trail and all sorts of other avenues of investigation. He has been given a quite broad mandate.

He doesn't know beforehand what he will find, if he did there would be no need for an investigation.
But he and his crew are looking into things that might give information.
If it doesn't then it was a dead end. But neither he, nor the Jedi can know ahead of time if various leads are dead ends or not BEFORE doing an investigation.

You jump to the conclusion that any investigation won't give anything and therefore the Jedi won't bother doing this despite them not knowing that. and the film never establishing this.
That is a confirmation bias.

It proves that Lama Su was deceived and that the person who placed the order was lying.

Simple,
IF Dooku placed the order, which the film implies.
IF Dooku showed his face, which is POSSIBLE as the film don't say that Kamino people never saw the face of "Sifo-Dyas".
THEN the Jedi can find this out by showing a picture of Dooku to the Kamino.
This might not work and but it is POSSIBLE as the film doesn't rule it out.

So the Jedi have no reason not to try and plenty of reason to do so.
They are faced with many mysteries and one way to solve it is to ask questions.
Doing nothing gets you nowhere.

Seriously?
The Jedi KNOW that Dooku is connected to Jango so after Sifo-Dyas, his is the second picture they would show.
This is how cops and investigators work. They look into past and present connections.
Dooku is connected to Jango Fett, who in turn is connected to the clone army.
Anyone with more than two brain cells would look into this.

A Jedi is involved, the Jedi know this since only a Jedi could have deleted the file.
So rather than show pictures of every last Jedi, the sensible and logical thing to do is to start with the Jedi that is said to have ordered the army, Sifo-Dyas.
After that, start with Jedi that are in some ways connected to this. Hence Dooku.
It is POSSIBLE that this might not give anything.
But again, the Jedi don't know that until they try.
They can't get answers if they refuse to ask questions.

Since Dooku was unable to consider the possibility that Palpatine would betray him, despite knowing the rule of two, then Dooku is not very bright.

Again, seriously?
If a known Russian agent was shown to have worked for Trump, in an important position, during his campaign.
You don't think that this is something that Mueller would look into?
It is known that some of Trumps people met with people connected to the Russian government and this in part why there is now an investigation.
Some of Trumps people have been forced to resign due to these connections.

As long as they do nothing, ask no questions or do any kind of investigations, yes.
But that would be stupid, hence why the Jedi come across as such.

If they SUSPECT that Dooku is Tyrannus, then they would start with trying to find evidence that either supports or disproves that suspicion.
Like showing his picture to the Kamino and see if that gets a reaction. It might not but they don't know until they try.
Look into the name, Tyrannus, do they know anything about him? Has anyone heard of that person?
Have the Kamino heard of him? Again they don't KNOW what the answer will be but asking no question GURANTEES no answers.

In closing, I don't know if I will continue this, we'll see.

Blackboard Monitor

 

the senate chose to use the clones .
the seps leaders , the droid foundry , Dooku etc. were all on Geonosis time was a critical factor if they went quickly they might chop the whole seps movement off at the roots .

after that would be time for investigations , The jedi would've investigated the mystery of the clones , but the Sith would also have covered their tracks , and would continue to do so , and you don't need much imagination to figure on ID theft , false paper trails etc. We don't need hours of movie time wasted on it .

Jango is a mercenary , there's nothing surprising about a merc working for both sides , Boba does it too .

but ultimately the way the jedi would develop trust with the clones is the only true test which matters : in battle . And these clones proved themselves loyal to the republic and worked well with the jedi for 3 years .

.

 

That's only because the plot needs the Sith's plan to be watertight. The fact that the plot requires it doesn't make it so.

It needs to be presented as watertight to the collective wisdom and skills of the Jedi order supposedly at their height. Not fiendish enough only to stymie people whoare just about capable of following one whole episode of NCIS.

 

I quoted your post. The link redirects to your post, not to the quotes in it. If there was an error in the quote tags, it comes from there.

Which part of the movie's dialogue proves me wrong?

It's clear in the movie that Obi-Wan either doesn't believe him or is extremely suspicious of him, thus what he's saying is questionable to his eyes.

Jango: "Never heard of him."

Obi-Wan: "Really..."

Jango: "I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."

Obi-Wan: "Curious..."

The acting in the scene only reinforces it.

What exactly didn't I back up?

You've been ignoring me the whole time by refusing to acknowledge the word 'impression' stated by Kenobi regarding Sifo-Dyas time of death. Hence the conversation going around in circles.

Of course he is. And that's my point. The Jedi are under the impression that he died before the time the order was placed. Under the impression. An impression that wasn't clarified. So what we are left with is that they have that impression.

Nobody is arguing that. He was killed, yes. That was never presented as a mystery. The Jedi may know how he died. But I'm not talking about 'how', I'm talking about 'when'.

If he's right.

They are suspicious, are worried and do ask questions.

No, this is the question: "So a clone army, created by Dooku the guy leading the separatist and part of Sith (your mortal enemy) and know one thought to investigate or do thorough test on these clones or why your enemy would give you free soldiers?"

This is nothing but hindsight bias. In AOTC, there's no way the Jedi could know that Dooku was a Sith, nor that he was the one responsible for the creation of the army. They didn't see the movie, they aren't omniscient.

So what? Was he with him? If not, he would only know through reports. And yes, I assume Jedi investigation reports are archived in the Jedi Archives. Not sure why this is being debated.

He only became a Master after AOTC. A decade after his death.

I'm not saying it's strange or not. I'm saying that all we know is that they assume he was killed before the alleged time the order was placed.

 

This.

 

Jedi don't go bombing in places with living people. During the Clone Wars, the Clonetroopers and the Jedi targeted ships and droids. They weren't going to conduct that aggressive a campaign.

Mace knew that if he surrendered, they'd be used as hostages to force the Republic and the Jedi to surrender and give into their demands. Mace was defiant and then the Clone Army arrives to rescue them and to redouble their efforts to stop the Confederacy.

It was watertight until Sifo-Dyas's Lightsaber and shuttle were found. That lead the Jedi to discovering that Dooku was Tyranus, but not what the Sith's goals were.

 

The jedi's were taken with surprise with some 200 000 clone soldiers,
ready to serve them, weren't they ..
What could they have done ?

 

They could have wondered how or why the surprise 200,000 clones can be ordered for the republic without them knowing about it and coincidentally completed just when the separatists are amassing an equivalent army with leadership from those with connections to the army discovered on Kamino.

They could have wondered it for longer than the 90 seconds they took to contemplate it in the movies before seemingly forgetting about their incredible, mysterious appearance completely.

darth-sinister Do you realise or care that if the movies do not fill the hole, it's a plot hole in the film?

 

I don't see how that relates to what I said .

the jedi would investigate , the sith would continue to cover their tracks .

why would you assume that , that doesn't make sense . I always assumed that they did investigate it .
your routine is to assume the jedi did something stupid and then complain that they did something stupid .

.

 

So you are just assuming that the mystery would never be solved because the sith wouldn't want it solved. How they, the Jedi and the Sith, would go about doing that is rather important wouldn't you think? Important enough not to be seemingly forgotten about.

Having to assume a mystery was thought solved or inconsequential because the Jedi don't discuss it again is a plot hole.

 

of course the sith are going to obstruct and confuse the investigation , its a plot they don't want the jedi to solve.

There's not much point in showing all that stuff in the movies as the investigation never reaches a solution , its the sort of thing that might make an interesting story in a spin-off , but this is a movie not NCIS .

why would you have to assume that ? again - you're assuming the jedi did something stupid and then complaining that they did something stupid ..

.

 

That's not a plot hole. The default assumption that any reasonable viewer would make is that the Jedi, who are clearly shown as suspicious in the film, looked into things as much as they could but didn't come away with any more information.

You're just assuming something nonsensical and then asserting that the film itself is nonsensical. It's really quite something to behold.

 

If one should reasonably expect due diligence to be performed, and the Jedi are shown to tacitly acknowledge that need and then shown 1.) not bothering to fulfill that need or 2.) give any indication that it's even on their agenda - then that's either a plot hole (i.e. we have to assume that at some point off screen, all reasonable scrutiny turned up nothing to cause any hesitation about using the clones or 2.) there never was any diligence and the Jedi are just incredibly stupid and reckless, even in the circumstances.

There's a reason why people ask questions like "Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army/" It's because the circumstances and the turn of events are so bizarre and incongruous that any reasonable person would expect the reasons to be provided to the audience rather than just assume that the Jedi declared it no longer a mystery, off-screen.

Such a serious issue being brought up in the story has to be dealt with in the story. Not in your head-canon of what happens in the universe.

 

I said this;

To which you said;

I then gave film proof that Jango does indeed tell Obi-Wan, a Jedi, that he has never heard of Sifo-Dyas.
This you then tried to ignore by arguing that Jango might have been lying or that the Jedi thinks he might have been lying.

Not only is this stuff you have made up to try and ignore what is IN the film.
Not only does it make no logical sense for Jango to lie here or that Obi-Wan would not sense it.
You also destroy your own argument.

Jango said he has never heard of Sio-Dyas, if he is lying about that, the audience have no way to know that. That Dooku is Tyrannus does not matter. Jango can have HEARD about Sifo-Dyas and still been hired by Dooku.
So then it is a fact that NEITHER the audience or the Jedi know.

So if you want to pull the "Jango is a liar" card then the audience are in the dark as much as the Jedi.
And if we go with that, who says he really was hired by Dooku?
He could have been lying about that too.
And is Dooku really Tyrannus?
Palpatine calls him that but he could also be lying.

See where making up stuff about characters lying gets you?
Now all dialogue can be thrown out due it possibly being lies.

That is why I don't favor this type of arguments as it makes any discussion pointless.
I won't assume characters are lying for no reason.

Also, you said this;

But here you made no comment about Lama Su possibly lying.
So you can use film dialogue freely but when I do it, now I have to prove that it isn't lies.

Obi-Wan is trying to get information and he also suspects that Jango is the one behind the attempt on Padme.
Obi-Wan has just got more news, not only does Jango not know who Sifo-Dyas is but he also gives out a different name, Tyrannus.
So Obi-Wan is trying to read Jango.
Possibly by using his Jedi powers.

But at NO point does he say that he suspect that Jango is lying.
In fact, he does not mention this whole thing to Mace and Yoda, which would be rather important.
Like see if they know anything about this Tyrannus.
But he keeps this to himself for some stupid reason.
If he had gotten killed then the Jedi would never know about Tyrannus or that Jango didn't know about Sifo-Dyas.

One would assume that he did eventually tell the Jedi of this, even tough they never talk about it onscreen.
So the Jedi are told that Jango said he had never heard of Sifo-Dyas and said he was hired by someone named Tyrannus.
Does this make it more or less likely that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army?
I think it obviously makes it less likely.
Now you have the template of the clone army having no idea about the person that is said to have ordered it and was hired by someone else.

That Jango is lying when talking to Obi-Wan.
You offer no direct proof of that assumption.

And you ignore Obi-Wan being a Jedi and thus having mind powers and possibly being able to sense such lies.
Or that it would be stupid for Jango to lie about it.
Obi-Wan knows Sifo-Dyas name so secrecy is not an issue.
And if he wants to put the Jedi's minds at ease, he would confirm that he has heard of Sifo-Dyas, thus making the story more easy to swallow for the Jedi.
But instead he makes the Jedi more suspicious and even gives them a name, Tyrannus.

That is because you are focusing on just one word instead of the whole sentence.
"I was under the impression that..." has about the same meaning as "It was my understanding that.."
or "I had been told that.."
The phrase can be used when something happens that conflict with what you thought previously or new information does not match with past information.
Ex. if you plan a meeting with a person and he said he would bring one co-worker but instead brings two, you could say "I was under the impression that there would only two of you."

It isn't really about an "impression" like say of a painting or someone making a "first impression" on someone.

From Dr Strangelove;
Muffley:
General Turgidson, I find this very difficult to understand. I was under the impression that I was the only one in authority to order the use of nuclear weapons.
Turgidson:
That's right sir. You are the only person authorized to do so. And although I hate to judge before all the facts are in, it's beginning to look like General Ripper exceeded his authority.
Muffley:
It certainly does. Far beyond the point I would have imagined possible.

The President isn't talking an impression, he is going on what he had been told about who has the authority to launch nukes and that he is the only with that authority.

If they have that impression then they would be working on the theory that the clone army was NOT ordered by Sifo-Dyas. Which is a reason to be careful with the clone army.

The date of Sifo-Dyas death is not really presented as much of a mystery either.
Obi-Wan knows he is dead, how he died and when he died.
He is just a little confused as Sifo-Dyas apparently ordered a clone army after his death.
The exact date would not be hard to check, either by asking Yoda and Mace or have them check the archives. But that is never mentioned.
And since it is that easy, the lack of mention implies that Obi-Wan was correct.
If he was wrong, then that should have been mentioned.
If there was an uncertainty, that too needs mentioning.

So the film kind of implies that there is no mystery about the date, the mystery is about who really is behind it.

Obi-wan was also moments ago scolded and told NOT to assume things so why did he say this unless he was quite sure?
And after he gives his report, this issue is never talked about. They never mention Sifo-Dyas name after that. At no point is it said that the date of his death is not known.

He is never proven wrong.
And what is the point of that dialogue if not to make us and the Jedi suspect that the army was ordered under a false name?

Except they don't.
Questions that the Jedi apparently don't ask;
Who really ordered the clone army, was it Sifo-Dyas or someone else?
Who tampered with their archives and why?
The clone template works for Dooku, the leader of the sep, coincidence or something else?
Who is this Tyrannus?
Should we trust this army that we don't really know who ordered it and the template of that army is working for the enemy of the republic?
The chancellor has an army that will follow any order he gives without question, should we be worried about that as we contemplate of removing him from office because we are worried he is becoming a dictator?

Also, I have argued that the Jedi have leads to follow, investigations to pursue and question to ask.

I suggest that they ask the Kamino people questions like;
"Did you meet Sifo-Dyas face to face?" "What did he look like?" "Can you recognize this person?" "When was the last time you spoke with Sifo-Dyas?" "How was the army paid for?"
"Did you get a person to contact in case of trouble or when the army was ready?"
"Do you know who this Tyrannus is?" "Did Sifo-Dyas tell you to expect Jango Fett or just some guy?"
All valid question.

Yet you keep arguing that the Jedi have no leads and no avenues of investigation.

At the end of the film, the Jedi knows that Dooku has fallen to the Dark Side and uses a signature sith lightsaber and a signature sith power, Force lightning. And he is working with known Sith associates the TF.
Since the OT/PT never has any other kind of Force user other than Jedi and Sith and since Dooku is not a Jedi anymore, he is a sith.
So the Jedi know that.
The Jedi also know that their archives has been tampered with, something only a Jedi could have done.
Dooku was a Jedi once so he could have done this.
And the Jedi know that the clone army template works for Dooku.

IF the Jedi are working with the assumption that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army, on account of being killed before that. Then Dooku is not only a possible suspect, he is even a likely one.

So the Jedi actually can suspect Dooku for being involved in this. And this isn't a bias or based on anything other than what they are aware of.
It is simple deduction.
They might not have PROOF as yet but they sure can SUSPECT him.

And IF the Kamino people did see "Sifo-Dyas" face, the Jedi can show them a picture of Dooku and see if that gets them anything. It might not but is worth trying.

The reason is this, the death of a Jedi master and one who sat on the council is likely to be more of rare thing than the death of a regular Jedi. The death of a catholic priest is not as noteworthy as the death of the Pope. So if you are a catholic priest, the death of some priest is less likely to reach your ears than the death of the Pope.
So Obi-Wan's knowledge of Sifo-Dyas death is likely because he heard about it ten years ago.

I am talking about Sifo-Dyas here, not Obi-Wan
Sifo-Dyas was a Master and sat on the council ten years prior to AotC.
Obi-Wan was a Jedi at the time and it would be reasonable that he heard about Sifo-Dyas being killed around that time.

[/QUOTE]

If they ASSUME that he was killed before the army was ordered then it then follows they also ASSUME that the army was ordered under a false name.
Which means that they do NOT think what you said earlier and what drew me to this thread.

So now you are saying that the Jedi are working with the assumption that he didn't order the army.
Which would the army very suspicious and shady to the Jedi.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

As noted, regardless of TCW, the point is that the Jedi investigated. It doesn't have to be brought up that they conducted an investigation and didn't find anything. The mystery was for the audience more than the Jedi. We find out before they do, which is when they find out about Order 66.

Which isn't much because Jango was hired by Tyranus, who for all Obi-wan knows, was a middleman who Sifo-Dyas hired to find someone like Jango. Thus he wouldn't need to meet Sifo-Dyas, especially if by that point, the latter was "dead".

 

And who said he didn't tell that? Again, what Jango said is not in question. Wether what is said is true or not is. Why would Obi-Wan take Jango's word for granted?

No, I didn't ignore the movie's dialogue. I said that we only know that what Jango said is true because we saw the movie, particularly the scene where the confirmation that someone called Tyranus does exist, that he was a Jedi and was responsible for the creation of the army.

Again, what's in the film is a statement. Wether that statement is true or not is not confirmed in the film to the Jedi. They have no way of knowing if what was stated by Jango is true or not. Stop arguing what nobody said/argued.

That's your opinion. And my opinion is that it doesn't make logical sense for Obi-Wan to take Jango's word for granted. And the Jedi are not omniscient to always know wether someone is lying or not.

Always hitting the strawman... The point is that he was hired by Tyranus, not by Sifo-Dyas. Sifo-Dyas is just a red herring to the Jedi. The Jedi have no way of knowing that he was hired by Tyranus or that Tyranus exists to begin with. We do, because we've watched the scene that confirmed the existence of Tyranus.

The audience is not in the dark once they've seen the movie. The Jedi are. And I said that as far as the Jedi know, Jango could be lying. It's possible. They shouldn't assume his word as the truth. It's illogical.

Seriously...?! Because a man called Tyranus does exist and he's Dooku.

Lying to whom? It's a private conversation beween him and his apprentice. Now you're trying to grasp at straws and failing at that too.

 

darth-sinister at what point in the movies do the Jedi investigate the source of the clones or present anything that shows they've investigated to their satisfaction? Never. The mystery is forgotten about before the end of AOTC. If the mystery wasn't for the Jedi then there was never any need for their creation to be so mysterious. But the Jedi do refer to it as a mystery. Just one they neglect to try and solve.

 

Kinda hard to solve when you have two Sith lords covering their tracks. The Jedi Jedi weren't even aware that Sifo-Dyas commissioned a clone army for the Republic until AotC. Recently, the narrative is that under the lead of the Jedi the clones started to develop independent thinking which is why they most of them were discarded after the formation of the empire in favor of recruits.

 

again - you're assuming they did something stupid and then complaining that they did something stupid .

there's all sorts of things that happen between the movies , are you not capable of filling in some blanks ? The jedi have a mystery but we're also told that the Sith are quite prone to confound and mislead . . .

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