PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

Why does Han Solo not pay off Jabba the Hutt in the interval between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back? Well, the movie doesn't explicitly tell us, so we're left to the reasonable assumption that events prevented him from doing so. Of course, we could assume that it's because Han Solo is terminally stupid and just plumb forgot to do something completely obvious, and therefore conclude that it's a stupid plot hole in a stupid movie...if we had some sort of bizarre axe to grind, that is.

 

It addresses Solo/Jabba at the very beginning of ESB. It even addresses it in ANH through something called character development.

Accepting the clone's wasn't character development. It is plot development in that the Jedi had lost their way.

RotS doesn't have any discussion about the clone mystery, unlike Han's bounty hunter reference. He just needed to repair his ship so he could make the payment. Of course the ESB invaded Hoth before he could get the Falcon up to speed. A big plot point. The Jedi weren't running from the Separatists, but rather at them.

 

The Jedi had other matters to attend to, such as the war and Palpatine. That's why it isn't brought up in ROTS. Lucas focused on that story more than the clones, because that is where the Jedi would be concerned.

 

The reason for Han not paying off Jabba in all the time between the films is never addressed, actually. The Falcon being in disrepair isn't the explanation. There's no indication that it's been out of commission for the entire time period between ANH and TESB --for one thing, how did it get to Hoth? You're also undercutting the very character development which you've just touted--the reason Han hasn't paid off Jabba is because he decided to stay with the Alliance, not because his damn ship is busted. Yet you would think there would be plenty of ways he could have zipped over and paid off Jabba and come back to help the Alliance, far more useful to them now that he's not a marked man with a debt hanging over his head. What you're doing now is making *gasp* an interpolation. You're assuming things which aren't explicitly stated in the movie in order to reach a conclusion about something. And you're not even doing a particularly good job of it.

There's nothing further to discuss about the clone mystery in ROTS. The army is of questionable provenance, the Jedi are suspicious, but the war forces them to make use of it. That brings us to ROTS. There's nothing more to say. There's nothing even slightly illogical about the status quo we're presented with in ROTS.

Once again, massive double standards everywhere.

 

So it's like Herbie the Love Bug. They find some car under strange circumstances, but that race is coming up ... so just get in and worry about it later. I mean, it isn't like you are putting your life in this mysterious objects' hands (or fenders).

No. I didn't.

I did no such thing. I addressed it, with brevity even.

He saw the rebellion as the larger cause. You don't risk the rebellion's hidden location by taking care of personal matters so they can track the Falcon (has that ever happened in SW?). Everything was going fine, until a bounty hunter convinced him otherwise. So he readjusted and started working on the Falcon (mainly the hyperdrive) so he could take care of the problem.

We also see that not only does he care for the rebellion, but he realizes their is chemistry between him and Leia. He even does the Han style flirting with her on what he thought would be his exit.

Lots of stuff in there on that situation.

Now describe all the exposition, interaction and dialogue in AotC / ROTS that addressed the clone problem.

Don't be so hard on yourself. Just because you can't bring up multiple scenes in the movies to address your interpolation doesn't mean ... oh ... it does.

Sheesh. Try not making things personal again and again and again.

 

Yes, it was a questionable decision with dire consequences. Congratulations, you've discovered the story. But a central plank of that story is that their folly was an understandable one: There seemed to be no other choice, and no concrete reason indicating that using the army would be in any way dangerous. The provenance was questionable, but the army itself was sound, and the Kaminoans lacking in any detectable malice. The origin of the army was a mystery, but that seemed no reason to look a gift horse in the mouth, because what possible ill could come from simply making use of a well-trained army full of good-intentioned men fiercely loyal to the Republic?

e: It's more like finding a car under strange circumstances before a big race, but you also inspect the car thoroughly and can find absolutely nothing wrong with it, and in fact it actually seems to be in excellent condition.

 

It would probably be more like

Some chick you don't know, shoots at your house window. You chase her down. Some other dude kills that chick. You track the assassin's assassin down to some place that is blacked out on Google Maps. Another chick answers the door. It looks like a chop shop. She tells you your Kindergarten teacher ordered a hot rod for you. You've never considered yourself a NASCAR driver, but your neighbor has been threatening to *destroy* you in the big race.

Now you go head over to the mechanic finishing up your hot rod. You ask about your teacher. Dude doesn't know what you are talking about. Some guy named the "Block Party Monster" hired him to spec the car out for you.

Then he tries to escape. You fight. You chase him back to the NASCAR big race event. The mechanic is working on your neighbor's car. Well. He's a mechanic. He must do other work for other people, right?

Your neighbor corners you, tells you someone in your family is screwing with you. Let's team up and take them out. You deny it. He states the race is on tomorrow. You tell him "No. This race is NOW."

You race. It's brutal. Somebody beheads his mechanic. But you won. It doesn't feel like a win. Maybe that's the family dude your neighbor was telling you about removing your best witness.

That's an awesome movie. The sequel "Speed 2" is where the car turns on you. How could you have known? There were no signs of foul play. Like at all.

 

Who's making things personal except you, here, right now?

If the car is fine, the car is fine. Not really an analogous situation at all though, because a war that threatens the existence of the entire polity you serve would be a much more consequential matter than a simple race and would justify you making different kinds of decisions, and loyal armies aren't things that are exactly known to suddenly and unexpectedly malfunction in the same way that a car can. To be honest your entire analogy is just not very good. The comparison breaks down very quickly.

 

It doesn't matter. Every movie studio has already contacted me with contract offers. They all had the same hoop to jump through. Address the blind acceptance of the hot rod. And, of course, more explosions.

 

Ever been asked at an airport if you packed your bags yourself?

I'm sure if you said that you didn't pack your suitcase but shook it around to demonstrate that it doesn't spring open and the contents don't fall out, in other words, that the suitcase is fine, then the security check would just be considered a waste of time.

 

Again, this assumes that the Jedi didn't investigate and found something suspicious.

 

I've no choice but to assume this. The mystery is never even mentioned again.

There's no allusion to the Jedi actively being as discerning as we are led to believe. If they had been, and it just wasn't depicted, then an allusion to conditions for their comfort should be part of the text. The necessary characterization for that turn of events should be conveyed and not left to the audience to be assumed.

You don't dangle a mystery in the text, then completely ignore the mystery in the text. Unless you wish to make the parties involved appear ignorant.

 

Which is sloppy storytelling.
A not inconsiderable amount of time in AotC is spent of the mystery with the clone army.
To then just ignore all those questions that the Jedi and audience would still have, that is bad writing.

Imagine if the issue of Vader being Luke's father was NEVER talked about in RotJ.
Would that not be odd and make the audience question why this issue is not resolved?

And, since the Jedi are talking moving against Palpatine, the mysterious army that he has and that he can order to do anything, that should be on the Jedi's minds. It should be a top priority.
And since the jedi are wiped out by said clone army, that they knew was quite fish but didn't apparently bother to investigate. Then the Jedi come across as looking quite dumb.

@Alexrd

You tried to deny it and then I proved you wrong by using dialogue from the film.
Which clearly show that the Jedi are well aware of what Jango said. And the truth of it is never shown to be in question.
You however tried to dismiss what Jango said as lies.

And to make it short and simple, PROVE IT!
You want to argue that the Jedi don't believe Jango, then it is up to you to provide the evidence for it.
You make the argument, you back it up.
I have done my bit and until you can come up with some movie evidence that supports your case, I am done talking to you.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

The mystery isn't ignored. It's solved at the end when we find out that Dooku is Tyranus and that this is a Sith plot to eliminate the Jedi. The Jedi aren't as discerning because they trust the clones since the Sith never utilized them and the Jedi treat the clones as equals.

If we go by the films, the Jedi do not know who placed the army. So they have no reason to think that Palpatine would have the clones attack the Jedi, much less that they would obey him if the orders were conflicting. If we go by TCW, the Jedi know, but they think that they can outwit him by winning the war before he can do anything with them. Not to mention, they think that the Sith were trying to eliminate the clones via a virus, that would make them act insane. The Jedi still trust the clones.

That's the point in both scenarios.

 

Mystery is ignored by Jedi. Nice try but stick to the issue.

It's like the classic Twilight Zone scenario of being tempted by the gift of dubious origin, ignoring the danger until it's far too late and the receiver of the gift gets their just dessert. There are no excuses.

You've no argument except the Jedi didn't distrust the gift so they must have had no reason. Which is blatantly wrong.

 

Yet, it is right because the Jedi do not have a reason to distrust the Clone Army. One of their own had apparently went about creating the army. The Senate has accepted the Clone Army. The Jedi have a choice; do nothing and let the galaxy go to hell, or use the Clone Army and try to prevent the galaxy from going to hell. If they choose the former, then the Senate will shut them down and they will be neglect in their sworn oath to protect the Republic. If they choose the latter, they can save the Republic and foil the Sith's plans.

After the Battle of Geonosis, the Jedi trust the Clonetroopers to be loyal to them and the Republic. Three years later, the Jedi still trust the Clonetroopers even after learning that Dooku is Tyranus. Just because we don't see them do a further investigation, doesn't mean that there wasn't one. Just like we don't see the reason why Han didn't pay off Jabba, doesn't mean that there wasn't one.

 

Being Desperate
Arrogance
Being involved with the War blinded them from seeing things from a clear perspective.

 

yeah , its worth reiterating that the clone army was "for the Republic" , and the senate voted to use it .

they showed they were good soldiers and loyal to the republic .

.

 

I totally disagree. How about the fact that Jango Fett was with Dooku on Geonosis. How about Dooku telling Obi-Wan the Sith Lord is the Chancellor. Jango telling Obi-Wan he was recruited by Lord Tyrannis. How about the Jedi Counsel feeling the Darkside strongly surroundings the Chancellor. How about the Clone who killed a Jedi and they found a chip that made him do it. Lastly Yoda had a vision of Order 66 before it happened.

 

jango is a gun for hire , works for anyone , Dooku never said the chancellor is a sith lord .

dunno about any of that , its not in the movies .

btw - a lot of this has already been discussed quite a bit in this thread .

 

The Republic is under the control of the Dark Lord of the Sith.




Here's evidence of the Council knowing about the chip, before this scene a Trooper killed a Jedi. The Order 66 got activated early for some reason.

Evidence that they were warned about Order 66 and Palpatine's involvement.


I am allowed to disagree and give my opinion, even if others made similar arguments. We are all here to discuss our opinions on StarWars.

 

but he doesn't say the chancellor is a sith like you said before .

besides - what do you think the jedi should do with this info from a sith who is clearly trying to create fear and paranoia ?

of course you are , I was just letting you know in case you wanted to go back and read the arguments in the thread .

 

He never used those exact words, but with Palpatine holding the highest office in the Senate it's implied. Well maybe at least to me. The Sith mix truth with lies. Just saying all these incidents are all cause for speculation on just accepting the Clones.

 

Plus everyone is looking for Leia as well as Mon Mothma and other Rebel leaders.

One can presume that once Han joined the Rebels cause going off to pay Jabba seemed rather useless as he was going to be a "criminal" anyway. It seems more an excuse to leave than anything real because the prospects of paying off Jabba after 3 years seems unlikely in the extreme.

 

Umm the Jedi are TOLD IN the film that the clones WILL obey ANY order without question.
Since Palpatine has the highest rank, he can order the clones to kill the Jedi anytime he wants and the Jedi should be totally aware of this fact.
In the film, the Jedi are given plenty of reasons why the clone army is very suspicious and them trusting it makes them look clueless.
Sort of like in a film where a character goes, "This total stranger that I don't know, has just said he is my friend and will instantly trust him and lower my guard. BANG! Oh, he shot me in the back, I am totally surprised, I did not see this coming."

No reason?
Sure if you ignore the whole AotC film.
The Jedi KNOW that the person who ordered the army said he acted on behalf of the senate but that is a lie. So the army is at best illegal, at worst treason.

The person that is said to have ordered the army is dead and the Jedi suspect he was actually killed BEFORE the order was placed. If so that means the clone army was ordered under a false name.

The clone army template said he has never heard of the Jedi that supposedly ordered the army and was hired by some else. AND he also HAPPENS to work for Dooku, a Jedi fallen to the dark side, who is running the seps. Whom the clone army just happens to fight.

The Jedi archives have been tampered with a the clone planet removed. Clearly in an attempt to prevent the Jedi from finding the army. And a jedi was involved in this.

The clone army obeys orders without question. So whoever has the highest authority can order the clones to do anything.

So in short, the Jedi have a TON of reasons to distrust the clone army.
Sure, right now their backs are against the wall and not using the clones is as bad if not worse than using it.
But it was totally possible to present the Jedi as making use of the clones while also remaining very suspicious of them. And trying to get to the bottom of the mystery surrounding it.
But the film ignores much of that and the third film ignores it all together.
Making the Jedi come across as Homer Simpson, "ooh a clone army, that is useful. OWW they killed me, ...doooh!"

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor