PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

Dooku said that Darth Sidious controls the Senate. Obi-wan finds this claim to be dubious and so does Mace and Yoda, chalking it up to lies and trying to create mistrust between the Jedi and the Senate. They only agree to keep an eye on the Senate, not the Chancellor. Just because Sidious controls the Senate, doesn't mean that he is the Chancellor. It could mean that he controls the Chancellor, which they suspect for much of ROTS, or it means that he's bought off enough Senators to make things go his way.

I'm referring to when the Clone Army is first taken into battle. The Jedi have no reason to believe that Palpatine would order them to terminate the Jedi, mainly because they still trust Palpatine. And later on, the Jedi believe that while the clones would obey orders, they wouldn't obey these orders. That's why Palpatine has made it a specific order known as Protocol 66. One designed to get the job done. And with TCW as part of the lore, the Jedi don't think that the Sith can manipulate the clones into attacking them. That's why they don't tell the Senate or the Chancellor that the Sith were involved.

True, but that still doesn't make the clones dangerous.

The Jedi are unsure when Sifo-Dyas died. They just have a point in time that they were informed by the Felucians that he was dead. They cannot verify his whereabouts between when he left the Temple and when he was reported dead. Nor if he wasn't acting on his own before going on his last mission. That's why Obi-wan is doubtful, because he isn't sure himself.

Because Sifo-Dyas couldn't hire someone to help him out? Do you not agree that that is possible? And that said guy doesn't mention the Jedi that he's working for.

Again, he can take a job working for either side. Nothing prevents that. Especially decades apart.

True, but they don't know why specifically. Sifo-Dyas could have hidden it from Dooku because he suspected him of betrayal, or Dooku hid it to keep it from the Jedi. Multiple reasons why to hide it.

True, but the Jedi don't think that the Chancellor would ever give orders to them. The Jedi are thinking that they're meant to obey them and non clone military personnel.

 

In regards to the original question, I don't think the Jedi "just accepted" the Clone Army.

There was reluctance.

Obi-Wan shows up investigating the weapon that killed Zam, who in turn was trying to kill Padme.

Then he finds out that the Jedi are expected and that there is this army, cloned from the assassin intended for the Republic. He should also have known that killing Padme would have eliminated opposition in the Senate towards the creation of an army.

The Kaminoans tell Obi-Wan that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army. Obi-Wan fact checks this with Jango who gives the name Tyranus instead.

Yoda and Mace explain that if Sifo-Dyas ordered the army, it was not done with the approval of the council. Jango needed to be captured for questioning.

Obi-Wan goes to Geonosis and reports the CIS is manufacturing an army, but then gets captured, leading to diplomatic crisis. The Senate grants Palpatine emergency powers and authorizes him to create an army. Palpatine decides to make use of the clones.

Yoda, still not sold, decides to go see the Clone army for himself while the rest of the Jedi move to rescue Obi-Wan.

Jango gets killed, preventing him from being questioned. Obi-Wan overhears that Padme's death is the price Gunray wants before pledging himself to the CIS.

The Jedi never get to the bottom of who ordered the army, because Sifo-Dyas and Jango are dead, and nobody knows who Tyranus is.

In the end, Obi-Wan admits that the clones saved the day. While the mystery of the army's origin never is found out, I think the Jedi definitely were suspicious up until the clones proved themselves at Geonosis.



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Not to mention that if the Sith wanted to use the Clone Army, why let the Republic and the Jedi have it? Dooku is openly against the Republic, so he cannot use them against the Jedi by ordering them to turn on the Jedi. If the Sith were involved, why hide the clones from them? That's the part that gets lost. The Jedi don't think that the Sith are setting them up with the army, when the Sith's actions are inconsistent with that line of thinking.

 

Maybe it’s because I’d already seen the first trilogy, so I knew the clones eventually became stormtroopers, but it does seem odd that they seemingly ignore this obvious Trojan Horse. They know that only a Jedi could’ve removed Kamino from the archives. It’s pretty clearly implied that Sifo-Dyas died before he allegedly ordered the army, and Jango Fett claims that he never heard of Sifo-Dyas. Instead, he claims that a mysterious figure named Tyranus ordered the army. They later find out that Jango works for Count Dooku…and isn’t it oh-so-convenient that they discover the army just before they discover that the Separatists plan to attack?

It’s a pretty big unresolved plot thread that’s just left dangling. The whole thing is just so fishy. Even if they don’t know the exact end goal, it’s pretty clear that something’s wrong about all this, and that there’s some kind of scheme going on that they need to investigate. At one point, Yoda even tells Obi-Wan Kenobi, “Clear your mind must be, if you are to discover the real villains behind this plot.” It’s pretty obvious that Dooku erased Kamino from the archives and that he ordered the army in Sifo-Dyas’s name (and the Jedi surely must realize this) but the fact that they never really ask why, despite the fact that it seems so bizarre that he’d order an army for his supposed enemies, is truly mind-boggling.

I think my biggest problem with the movie is that it really feels incomplete and, as a result of that incompleteness, it fails to satisfy. It’s setup without resolution, tease without consummation.

 

How is it obvious that Dooku erased the Archives? Why couldn't Sifo-Dyas have done so? Why is it obvious that Dooku ordered the army for the Jedi? That's the point. And you say that it is an obvious Trojan Horse, but you do know how the story went? Nobody suspected that the horse hid the Roman army waiting to strike.

 

Sifo-Dyas didn't walk out on the Jedi order and is not a confirmed enemy. It's that simple.With Dooku, it all connects, as Lester Freamon would say. Sifo-Dyas is just a half baked and obvious piece of obfuscation.

Nobody expects a Roman army to be hiding in the horse to this day. Particularly (if you know how the story went) since you can't fit an army in a wooden horse. But especially (if you know how the story went) because it was the ancient Greeks who allegedly hid a few men in a wooden horse, and those men opened the gates for the awaiting Greek armies.

 

They know that only a Jedi could’ve erased those files, and nobody seriously seems to believe that Sifo-Dyas did it. Now we know that all of this happened about 10 years earlier. We also know that Dooku left the Jedi about 10 years earlier. The timelines fit. And Dooku is the best guess they have. They know that Jango is the template for the army. They know that Jango has never heard of Sifo-Dyas. And they know that Jango works for Dooku. At this point, Dooku is the likeliest suspect.

I mean, if you wanna get technical, it could’ve possibly been anybody. It could’ve possibly been the blue Twi’lek Jedi. But Dooku is the likelier option. I know that if I were on the Council, Dooku would be my Number One suspect.

Yes, I had to read The Iliad back in high school. And they don’t know that Dooku and Palpatine are covertly working together to sabotage the Galactic Republic from within. They only know that Dooku is waging war against the Republic. (I’m not sure if it’s stated whether they realize that Dooku is a Sith or not, but I think they probably do.)

So, working under the assumption that they suspect Dooku (as they should), the question then becomes why would Dooku order an army for his purported enemy. The most sensible and logical answer is that the army is a Trojan Horse. That would be a good reason for Dooku to build an army for them. Now what kind of Trojan Horse is it? What’s the nasty, little built-in surprise? The audience now knows it’s Order 66, but, of course, the Jedi don’t know that yet. Considering the very likely probability of the army being a Trojan Horse, and they don’t know what the surprise is, I will say it’s a bit mind-boggling that they let themselves fall into the trap, rather than being more wary about the army.

 

Years ago, someone (FalorWindrider) pointed out that the characters in the PT are completely genre blind; despite being an incredibly advanced society, with a Jedi library containing literally everything that has ever existed, apparently they don't have basic morality tales. Apparently they don't understand the danger of Exact Words; when Lama Su said they'd obey any order without question, he meant any order. Apparently they don't have an in-universe equivalent of a Trojan horse. Apparently Anakin has never read Faust, nor has he heard of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

The Jedi claim to be aware of the Sith tactics of lies and deception. Yet they only seem to address the growing emergency like it's a black and white, us versus them conflict with the lines between friend and enemy clearly defined, which includes implicitly trusting everyone within the Republ, except for vauge grumbling about "politicians" in general. Something which any bozo can do without the actions to back up their supposed convictions, never mind the Jedi order "at their height".

 

The Jedi are aware of quite a lot of what I mentioned.
That the person who placed the order said he acted on behalf of the senate when that was a lie.
That there is considerable doubt of who really ordered the army. Was it Sifo-Dyas and if not, then the army was ordered under a false name.
An army ordered under false pretenses and under a false name, that is plenty or reasons to be vary.

Obi-Wan knew about the total obedience and what Jango said. We don't see him tell Mace and Yoda this in his first report so they might not know that before the battle. But unless he is an idiot, he would have told them eventually.

Any TCW material only serves to prove how badly the films handled this plot because you always have to bring it up in order to explain the films. So you admit that the films don't stand on their own.
At NO point IN the films do the Jedi ever talk about the clones not obeying certain orders.
What the films instead have is them being told that the clones will obey ANY order WITHOUT question. And somehow they are not worried about that. Because they are written to be morons.
If you want the audience to know that the Jedi have reason to believe that the clones are not totally obedient, put that IN the film. If you do not, then don't act surprised if the audience thinks your characters are cretins.

Really? The person who ordered the army lied, broke the law and possibly committed treason.
No reason to be worried about the army that follows ANY order without question?
The clones are said to have been modified to be less independent and they obey any order.
So it would be very possible to put in some very harmfull order in them.

Again with the TCW stuff, you just keep proving my point.
In the film, the date when Sifo-Dyas was killed is not established as a mystery or that the Jedi don't know or are unable to find out.
And since Yoda had just told Obi-Wan NOT to assume things, that he then brings up the issue of Sifo-Dyas being killed before the date the order was placed, that implies he would be reasonably sure about it. Why else bring it up? And why is it IN the film if the audience is just supposed to ignore it?

Since the Jedi have doubt about Sifo-Dyas beign involved on account of him being dead when the order was placed. That Jango does not know his name and talks about someone else, that strengthens their suspicion that something is wrong with the clone army.

And IF Sifo-Dyas did use some else, why hide his name? The Kamino people know it very well and told Obi-Wan about it so it was not meant to be a secret.
And it would also make sense for Jango to know about it when he came to Kamino to be their template. That he would give the name of the Jedi that is behind the army.
And how come he has not once heard about Sifo-Dyas? He has been there for almost ten years and he has been quite involved in the process.

Again we are talking about a galaxy's worth of people here.
The odds that this was just random chance is too low for anyone with any sense to ignore.
Jango works for Dooku, a fallen Jedi. So he could have tampered with the Jedi files.
And IF Sifo-Dyas was really killed before the army was ordered, then Dooku would be the prime suspect.

Except that the Kamino know who the army is for, the republic. So they WILL eventually contact the senate about it. So deleting the file will NOT prevent the army from becoming known to the republic.
What it might do is to prevent the Jedi from finding it before that.
Why would this matter? Well since the Jedi would have a better idea than anyone about the date Sifo-Dyas died and if he was killed before the army was ordered, that proves it was ordered under a false name. So to prevent that, keep the jedi from finding out about the army before it was too late.
They could show that there are many things wrong with the army.

And if Dooku wanted to keep the army away from the Jedi, then he had a lot of better options, like sabotage. Easy since he has a man on the inside. Or just let the senate know about this illegal army being built. Since the senate never approved of it, they could decide to scrap the whole thing since it was illegal.

[/QUOTE]

Which is idiotic. The army is for the REPUBLIC, not the Jedi.
The person placing the order said he acted on behalf of the senate. And Palpatine is the leader of the senate.
So the person in the republic that has the highest rank will be able to give any orders he likes.
This person is Palpatine and the Jedi know it. Before the army was used, Palpatine had gotten extra powers from the senate that allowed him to bypass it and give orders that were put in motion immediately.

IF Obi-Wan is correct and Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered, then he was not involved.
The deleting of the file is obviously connected to the army so if Sifo-Dyas was not involved with that then he obviously was not involved in the file getting removed either.
So another Jedi did this.

The jedi know that Jango, the army template, works for Dooku, a former Jedi.
He could have deleted the file and he could have posed as Sifo-Dyas.
This makes him the primary suspect.

It is POSSIBLE that another Jedi is behind this but Dooku is the one any investigator with more than two brain cells would consider first. So either try to find evidence that he did this or something that proves he did not. But the Jedi don't seem to be interested in either.

The clone army template works for Dooku, a Sith. So the army is not hidden from them. Jango could have told them all about it.
So the Jedi have plenty of reason to think that the sith did know about the army.
Now why did they do nothing to stop the army from getting ready?
Like sabotage or attack Kamino?
That is puzzling sure.

But what would have been the result of the clone army didn't exist?
The war would be over within days. The senate would quickly surrender and the seps would leave and the republic would be forced to agree to their demands.
So the number of casualties would probably not be too high and the end result would be a galaxy divided. The seps and what remained of the republic.
But if the sith wants to rule the whole galaxy, like they did before, this plan would be a half-measure.
So how about a big war, a war that would kill a lot of jedi since they would be on the front lines.
And a war that would not lead to a split galaxy but a galaxy untied under whoever won.

Also, have the Jedi never encountered a situation where someone has played both sides?

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Where did I say any of that? Nowhere. What I said is that Sifo-Dyas could have easily created the Clone Army and hid the location of Kamino, not as a betrayal of the Jedi, but to protect it against the Sith finding out. There is more than one answer that the Jedi can reach. Just as police and other investigators can come up with different theories on what actually happen, before coming up with the right one.

Nobody can prove that Sifo-Dyas did or didn't do it. That doesn't mean that he couldn't have. The only thing Yoda and Mace confirm is that they did not give Sifo-Dyas consent to do this. Not that he couldn't have done it on his own accord. And Jango is a bounty hunter. He can work for Sifo-Dyas and then later for Nute Gunray.

That assumes that such a tactic was ever used in Republic history. That's the point. You're going by the idea that they have to suspect that they're a trap, but that doesn't make sense to think that. If they were a trap, Dooku would have sprung it sooner rather than later. Even when the Jedi learn later on about Dooku being Tyranus, they still don't think that the clones would turn on them.

The Jedi don't like politicians as they have a tendency to be corrupt individuals. But that's true of the real world. The Jedi trust those that are proven to be trustworthy. Bail Organa, Pamde Amidala and Mon Mothma had proven trustworthy by the Jedi. Anakin believed in Palpatine because of his value of friendship over principles. Obi-wan doesn't trust him in AOTC, because of his being a politician and in ROTS, it is because of his suspicious behavior. They see the war as an external one because it is presented as such by the Sith. They distrust Dooku's words because of the Sith's nature to lie, but the Sith have exploited that against them by telling the truth which makes it too fantastical to believe.

Just because one is at their height of power and capability, doesn't mean that they aren't capable of being taken down. After all, the Empire is at its height in ROTJ and it's undone by Ewoks and a novice Padawan.

Uh, is it? Remember, the Jedi have chosen to keep it a secret that this army was created without their knowledge. They do not know for certain if someone in the Senate didn't tell Sifo-Dyas to do this. They only state that they didn't do this.

Sifo-Dyas is a real name and a real Jedi. And he could have easily done this before his death on Felucia.

He would have, yes. That doesn't mean that they're not trustworthy, nor that the Chancellor would order them to turn on the Jedi. That's a mighty large leap.

This assumes that whoever authorized the army did so with malicious intent.

The audience isn't supposed to ignore it. We're supposed to know that he didn't do it. The Jedi, on the other hand, are left to wonder until Order 66 is given.

They have doubt because they were not there to witness his actions in his final hours/days before his death. They don't know what he did before he died, other than he was given a specific mission and then died while on that mission. Obi-wan can only say that he thought that he had died before then, but he does not know for certain.

Not really. A middle man who acts as a recruiter is not an impossible concept to imagine.

The Kaminoans never state that they don't know who Tyranus is? Obi-wan doesn't even ask Taun We about it, when Jango name drops him.

Not really. He would say that he was there because of Tyranus, whom the Kaminoans know.

This assumes that he would ask questions about the Jedi who placed the order. As well as the idea that the Kaminoans would talk about the Jedi to him.

Why? Why is it impossible to believe that Jango Fett has such a reputation that he would be recruited by an active Jedi and a former Jedi, a decade apart?

That's a mighty big if and not supported by evidence that would prove it one way or another.

Sifo-Dyas could have hidden it from Dooku, if he suspected him of possible treachery, so that he wouldn't sabotage it, but was then killed before he could let the Jedi know. Simple enough.

And the Jedi trusted Palpatine. He wasn't leading the war, the Jedi were. Palpatine doesn't give orders to the Clonetroopers during the war, he leaves it to the Jedi. I must have missed where Palpatine was giving orders before Order 66. The Clonetroopers were obeying the Jedi, who were acting on behalf of the Senate and the Chancellor. Once they start to distrust Palpatine, they don't think that he would give orders to the Clonetroopers.

Again, a lot of ifs. Nothing solid to go on. Remember, Dooku hid the evidence trail leading to him. Even investigations in the real world can go cold without a clue. That's why there are cold case files. That was the point that was brought up in TCW. The Sith had hidden the evidence linking them to the clones and the Jedi were left with a cold trail.

 

The amusing thing is that the prequels actually demonstrate that legends do exist in the Star Wars universe (The Tragedy of Darth Plagueis), whereas the original trilogy really didn’t.

That’s why you investigate, to find evidence for your suspicions. And the scene makes it clear that they don’t believe Sifo-Dyas did it.

OBI-WAN KENOBI: They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a clone army…at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a clone army?
MACE WINDU: No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.

It’s worth noting that Windu specifically refers to “whoever placed that order”. At the very least, they strongly suspect it wasn’t Sifo-Dyas. Otherwise, Windu would’ve said. “Sifo-Dyas did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council.”

Moreover, we know that Jango never worked for Sifo-Dyas.

OBI-WAN KENOBI: Then you must know Master Sifo-Dyas.
JANGO FETT: Uh, Boba, rood eht so-heeck. Master who?
OBI-WAN KENOBI: Sifo-Dyas. Is he not the Jedi who hired you for this job?
JANGO FETT: Never heard of him.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: Really?
JANGO FETT: I was recruited by a man called Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden.
OBI-WAN KENOBI: Curious.

Therefore, both the audience and the Jedi know that Jango never met Sifo-Dyas. Instead, he works for someone named Tyranus. Now, if I were the Jedi, I’d try finding out who Tyranus is, and considering that we later see Jango working for Dooku, I’d have a strong suspicion that Tyranus was simply a pseudonym for Dooku. Obviously, at the end of the film, the audience discovers that Tyranus is, in fact, Dooku, but to the Jedi’s credit, they have no proof of that.

Considering how advanced their society is (artificial intelligence and faster-than-light are just everyday things, much like mobile phones and the Internet in our society), I have a hard time believing that there is no example of a Trojan Horse-like tactic in the entirety of Galactic history.

 

the Trojan horse analogy doesn't work , the Greeks didn't sneak into the city and then spend 3 years fighting loyally alongside the Trojans .

This was a long-con , a very long-con !

 

You didn't have to say it darth-sinister.

The Jedi say NO to suggestion that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army. Dooku is plotting against the Jedi and the Republic, with the template for the mysterious clones in his employ. It's a bit daft to contest that the Jedi's suspicions would not be focused in that direction any more than Sifo-Dyas.

 

No one said that legends don't exist. That's not the same as saying that similar legends in our world exist in their world. And the story Palpatine tells about Plagueis isn't a legend. The Jedi don't even know that he existed, because he was Palpatine's Master and his name and history is unknown to the Jedi. Palpatine is playing it up as a Sith Lord who existed during the last war between the Jedi and Sith and that his story is something that the Council knows of, but refuses to tell most of their members about. It's his way of fostering the notion that the Jedi are withholding information about the Force from him.

OBI-WAN: "They say Master Sifo-Dyas placed an order for a Clone Army at the request of the Senate almost ten years ago. I was under the impression he was killed before that. Did the Council ever authorize the creation of a Clone Army?"

MACE: "No. Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council."

What Mace actually said was that the Council never gave Sifo-Dyas permission to do it. They don't believe that he did it, but that does not preclude the possibility that he did it without their permission. Just that they weren't involved in it's existence.

The Jedi Council know that he is plotting against the Republic, but they do not believe that he had any involvement in the creation of an army that he never claimed for himself and was meant for the Republic, not the Confederacy. What the Council do not know is if Sifo-Dyas did it or not. They cannot question him. They cannot question Jango because he's dead. They do not know who Tyranus is, or where to find him. And just because Jango works for Dooku, ten years later, doesn't mean that he's involved with Dooku and creating the Clone Army. Not when Sifo-Dyas and Tyranus are implicated by both the Kaminoans and Jango.

The Jedi don't think that. They think that they're separate people. Hell, when they find out in TCW, Obi-wan's shocked at the revelation.

OBI-WAN: "Tyranus? You are the man called Tyranus?"

DOOKU: "I told you everything you needed to know on Geonosis all those years ago, Kenobi."

Now, if Lucas had left it as it was originally written, then they would look worse.


JANGO: "I was recruited by a man named Darth Tyranus on one of the moons of Bogden."


OBI-WAN: "One more thing. Jango mentioned he was recruited by someone namedDarth Tyranus. Any idea who that might be?"

YODA: "With the forename Darth, a Sith he must be."

MACE: "Our missing apprentice. They are playing their hand at last."

Of course, originally it was much more obvious that the Sith created the Clone Army, as the name used was Sido-Dyas, who was not a Jedi at all. Yoda and Mace confirm that no such Jedi existed. Lucas changed it to be less obvious.

"The telling of this story of Anakin going into the Jedi Temple and the other Jedi getting killed through the Order 66 of the clones is just done as one of those kind of inevitable pay offs in terms of getting rid of everybody. the Emperor is getting rid of all his enemies, but there’s a certain inevitability of it all and a sadness to it. I was always worried in Episode II that I was giving away too much in terms of people asking questions about where did the clones really come from. If you go back they mention the fact that Lord Tyranus and Count Dooku are the same person and that Darth Tyranus is the one that started the clones so if your paying attention its very easy to figure out what’s going to happen to the clones, if they will be the ones that will betray everybody. Tough to put in things like that without giving everything away."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

 

Lots of things are possible. But the possibility of Sifo-Dyas being responsible is not given serious consideration. In fact it's immediately dismissed. The chain of evidence that reveals the clones to the Jedi branches from and to the separatists and Dooku. But the Jedi appear to abandon ALL lines are of enquiry.

 

Yoda and Mace dismiss it when they first hear of it. That doesn't mean that they do not consider that Sifo-Dyas had done it, after the Battle of Geonosis. They're not going on about it in ROTS, because they're more concerned with winning the war and finding out what Palpatine is up to. And nothing links Dooku to the clones except Jango and even then, it is flimsy linking because A) Jango has a reputation for being the best and B) as a mercenary, he'll work for whomever he wishes to and for the right fee.

 

I'm sorry. That is the poorest argument I've heard to date.

Investigators don't neglect obvious lines of enquiry because it's possible that it might be a dead end and there could, conceivably, be another explanation.

It seems also that war instantly excuses Jedi from being Jedi.

 

That's the weakest argument to date. It's flimsy to link Jango's clones and his employers because he's good and he's freelance so it's conceivable that he could be working for anyone he wants and who would want a clone army?

That's so absurdly spurious, it's possible you might honestly believe it. But if you did so you'd be prepared to believe anything no matter how perverse. Which is not a good thing.

 

I didn't say that they didn't investigate. They did. But when the trail goes cold, even the police wind up stopping the investigation. Jango is dead. Sifo-Dyas is dead. No one knows where Tyranus is. Dooku being a suspect in the creation of the clones is not even something that crosses their minds, because why didn't he claim them if he intended to use them against them? Why create them for the Jedi? That's why they only start to investigate again when Sifo-Dyas' shuttle and Lightsaber were found in a location different from where they should have been. Now they have a clue from which they can start and follow through. If there is nothing to connect the dots, then there is nothing that can be done. Dooku had went out of his way to cover his tracks so that the Jedi would be stumped.

I didn't say Jango was good. Being a mercenary like that is not about being good or evil. Han was good, but he was also a mercenary himself. He worked for someone who was clearly evil like Jabba, but he was also willing to transport two men, a princess and a pair of droids for money, who were part of the Alliance against the Empire. Being a mercenary like that is about taking a job that is only in your self interest and not about your personal politics. Jango being good or evil wasn't an issue. It just means that a Jedi could have hired him and then a Sith could hire him for a different job.

 

Obi-Wan: I'm tracking a bounty hunter named Jango Fett. Do you know him?
Count Dooku: There are no bounty hunters here that I am aware of. The Geonosians don't trust them.
Obi-Wan: Well, who can blame them?

 

darth-sinister Good as in proficient. You said Jango being the best was a factor in the Jedi getting a pass from pursuing that line of enquiry.

If you're going to mince words like that then I take it back. You clearly don't honestly believe it and are simply speaking at crossed purposes for its own sake.

 

I'm not sure where you're going with this?

No, I didn't. I said that Jango wasn't good. I didn't mean that he wasn't good at his job. I meant that he is not a good person. My point is that moral relativity is not a factor in what a mercenary does. You can be good like Han, or bad like Jango and still do things that are morally questionable for either side. All that matters is the money and if you really care about either side of the conflict. The Jedi didn't give him a pass because of his morality. They didn't give him a pass at all. Obi-wan is told to bring him back to the Temple for questioning, but is killed by Mace. Jango being the best bounty hunter isn't going to tell them anything other than he was good at his job and the clones are the end result of that job.

 

I am going to ask one thing from you.
In your response, try and limit your answers to film ONLY stuff.
Not script, not Lucas, not TCW, not any books.
JUST the films.
If you find that you can not, then I ask that you consider how well this plot is presented when it can't be explained with just information from the films.

Apart from the small detail that according to Obi-Wan, Sifo-Dyas was DEAD when the army was ordered.

As for hiding it from the Sith, see below and the Sith's ability to see things through the Force.

Where IN the films do they ever establish that they CAN'T prove or disprove that Sifo-Dyas ordered the army?
It would be a simple matter, double check the dates and if Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered, which Obi-Wan said, then it is 100% proof that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army.
Or show the Kamino people a picture of Sifo-Dyas and if they recognize him, then that is proof that he did order the army.

As for doing this on his own, he is a Jedi and has no money and the clone army would cost a LOT.
So Sifo-Dyas alone can't pay for this.
Also, Jango works for Dooku, not Nute.

Yes it is. Obi-Wan reported that "Sifo-Dyas" placed the order for the army at the request of THE SENATE. Not Senator bla bla.
The Senate was said to have ordered this.

Which means that the Senate would have to have voted on the matter and decided to place an order for a clone army. This would be a matter of public record and the Jedi would know about it.
Also, since AotC has a big plot point about an army vote going on and there is a lot of debate around it.
Thus makes no sense that the senate already did vote ten years ago to create an army for the republic.
So the senate never gave such an order and thus the clone army is at best illegal.

In what film is Felucia shown?

In the actual film, Obi-Wan says that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was killed BEFORE the army was ordered and Mace and Yoda do not question it. And Mace uses the word "Whoever" when talking about the person behind the army. So clearly they are leaning towards the theory that Sifo-Dyas DIDN'T order the army and nothing in the films show them being wrong on that score.
So the film establishes that the Jedi are aware that the army is illegal and that it was quite likely ordered under a false name.
That is reason enough to be cautious.

The clones can not be trustworthy as they can NOT disobey orders.
If they are given an order to kill babies, they would obey without question.
So the Jedi can't assume that the clones will refuse certain orders when they are TOLD that the clones obeys any order without question.

In AotC, Yoda gives Palpatine a big stink eye.

And when they are talking about the clone army and how they did not sense it, Yoda said that only a Sith Lord knows about their weakness when it comes to their inability to see things through the Force.
So only a Sith Lord would know that the jedi would not be able to sense the creation of the clone army. So if the sith were behind this, they would also know that the Jedi would not be able to foresee this.
Also, it seems that the Sith do not have their ability to see things through the Force weakened.
So normally the Jedi would be aware of this clone army being made but now they can't due to the Dark side.
But the sith would not be likewise affected.
So then the sith WOULD be able to sense this army being created.
To connect with your first part, this army can NOT be hidden from the sith as their ability to see things through the Force are still strong.
Thus the Jedi would think that the sith have known about this army for a long while and done nothing about it.

An illegal army, probably ordered under a false name. You would need to be very gullible to not suspect foul play.

Except the Jedi are not really shown to wonder if Sifo-Dyas did it or not.
The film presents them as getting information that speaks quite a lot against Sifo-Dyas doing it and after that, the whole matter is just forgotten.

Just a few lines of dialogue, the Jedi say they will look into this and later they mention that they have not been able to confirm or deny Sifo-Dyas involvement.

It would be far better if Obi-Wan didn't say the bit about Sifo-Dyas being killed before the army was ordered. Just that Sifo-Dyas is dead.
That leaves the possibility open that he did this.
Then the audience sees that Dooku is Tyrannus and so we can connect the dots but the Jedi can't.
But the film gives the Jedi so many clues that things are wrong that them just ignoring all of it makes them seem clueless. Which I doubt was the intent.

Again this is non-film stuff.
In the film, we have Obi-Wan saying what he did and nothing that suggest that the date of Sifo-Dyas death was not known to the Jedi. If Obi-Wan is unsure, why didn't he ask Mace and Yoda about the date? He was talking to them and it would take two seconds.
Either Obi-Wan is very sure and feels no need to verify his conclusions and Mace and Yoda are also satisfied.
Or Obi-Wan is just an idiot.

It is possible yes but what you are ignoring is if it is PLAUSIBLE.
So which option is the most PLAUSIBLE based on what the Jeid know in AotC?
Sifo-Dyas died, then rose from the grave and ordered a clone army and went back to being dead. Someone totally unrelated hired Jango to be the template and did not mention Sifo-Dyas name.
Or Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered and his name was used by someone. This person pretending to be Sifo-Dyas also hired Jango to be the template.

I think you are getting confused.
I was talking about Sifo-Dyas, the Kamino people didn't hide his name in any way.
So why would whoever hired Jango hide Sifo-Dyas name from him?
And Obi-Wan not asking about Tyrannus is another piece of idiocy on his part.

Really? The Kamino people know Tyrannus? Where in the film was that established?
And if they know about him, then that would be something that the Jedi could ask them about.
But as far as the films go, they don't.

Again, the Kamino people didn't try to hide Sifo-Dyas name.
And given that they thought that the senate was behind the order and that the JC knew all about this, they have no reason to being secretive. At least the person that is the template for the army and how was apparently quite involved in their creation.
As far as they know, everything is on the up and up.

Again you confuse possible and plausible.
It is POSSIBLE yes, but the question that needs to be asked is how PLAUSIBLE this is.
And given that we are dealing with a galaxy's worth of people here, the explanation that Jango got hired for these two jobs by random chance is not the first one you should leap to.
You can have it as a possibility but ignoring all other possibilities and going with that without any investigation what so ever. That is moronic.
Plus Jango has been on Kamino for almost ten years, so he has been out of circulation so to speak.
He can travel yes but it sounded that he spent most of his time there.

Hardly, this is very basic police stuff.
If the cops learn that the same car was used in two different bank robberies, they would most likely suspect a connection. If the same gun was used in two different murders, again the cops would investigate the possibility of a connection.

The exact date of Sifo-Dyas death is not something that the film establish as something unknown to the Jedi. So they could prove that Sifo-Dyas was not involved easily enough.
If so, then he can't be the one who deleted the file as that was obviously done in connection tot the army being made there and since Sifo-Dyas wasn't involved in that, he isn't involved here.

So the Jedi are left with the following;
Only a Jedi could have deleted the file and this is clearly connected to the clone army.
Dooku is a former Jedi thus could have deleted the file.
AND he is connected to the clone army via Jango.
So he had the means and he is connected to the army.

That is more than enough reason to SUSPECT Dooku.
It doesn't totally prove it but it is an obvious avenue of investigation.
To dismiss it out of hand and never consider it, that is grade A stupid.

As to how the Jedi might find more proof.
Show the Kamino people a picture of Dooku and if they recognize him as "SIfo-Dyas", case closed.
Try and track Dooku's past travels.
See if they can find out what he did almost ten years ago.
Was he on the moons of Bogden?
Could he have been on Kamino?
Look into Dookus' bank records, if there a massive payout about ten years ago then that is suspicious. Ask the Kamino how "Sifo-Dyas" paid for the army.

Except again, Sifo-Dyas was apparently killed BEFORE the army was ordered.
So how could he hide an army that he hadn't even ordered yet?
AS far as the film go, the Jedi seem to operate under the theory that Sifo-Dyas didn't order the army and they are never proven wrong on that. So why would they assume this when it makes no sense?

Did they, again Yoda gives Palpatine a big stink eye in AotC.
And the plain and simple fact is that Palpatine COULD give a direct order to the clones if he wanted to. The Jedi have zero reason to think he can't give them orders and they would know that Palpatine is the one with the highest authority. So if they are worried about him grabbing power, the totally obedient army would be a prime factor here.

[/QUOTE]

It is reason enough to consider the possibility and investigate it.
AND also reason enough to be somewhat careful with this clone army and not instantly trust it.

As others have said, the possibility that an investigation might not lead anywhere is NOT a reason to do nothing.

Did Dooku hide anything?
About the only thing the films show is the Kamino file.
Anything else? Not as far as the films go.
And again, what I am asking for is that the Jedi CONSIDER the possibility that Dooku might have been involved. Or that they say anything about doing further digging.
But the films just skip over that, leaving the impression that the Jedi did nothing at all and just accepted the clone army, no questions asked and they are later killed by that army. Making them come across like morons.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Sure, if you will admit that it is possible that the Jedi assume:

1. That it is possible for Sifo-Dyas to do it, before he died.

2. That there is nothing that says that Dooku is Tyranus.

3. That it is possible for Jango to be hired by two completely unrelated people, a decade apart, for different purposes.

4. That the Jedi did investigate and found nothing to implicate Dooku was involved.

5. That the Jedi would have no reason to believe that the Clonetroopers would try to kill them if Palpatine ordered them to, before finding out that he was evil.

No, Obi-wan said that he thought that he was killed before then. Not that he was dead and thus he couldn't have done it. Was Obi-wan attached to the hip of Sifo-Dyas? No. So how can he know what Sifo-Dyas did before he was killed? He wasn't with him. It is possible that he could have placed the order before dying.

What makes you think that they didn't do any of that? Because it's not talked about in ROTS? That's pretty specious reasoning.

Oh no, you got me there. There's no way he could possibly do it. Unless he had a friend who had money and connections that he didn't. A man named Tyranus.

He works for Nute. As he is the one who is paying for his fees. Dooku just recommended him. Even Obi-wan says Nute is Jango's employee.

OBI-WAN: "The Trade Federation is to take delivery of a droid army here... and it is clear that Viceroy Gunray is behind the assassination attempts on Senator Amidala."

Not Count Dooku, but Nute Gunray. But I guess Obi-wan's stupid, right?

You miss it. We know and the Jedi know that the Senate did not authorize this. That doesn't mean that a rogue senator could have been involved. That this person could have encouraged Sifo-Dyas to do this and agree to lie about having authorization of the Senate to Lama Su.

"Revenge Of The Sith".

Right now, they don't. They haven't conducted an investigation into the matter. Later, is a different matter. This was in "The Lost One".

YODA: "The creation of the Clone army, kept secret from us Sifo-Dyas did. How this was done we know not, yet now a new piece of the puzzle we have."

Meaning that Yoda sure believes that he did it.

JOCASTA: "Our records definitively state that Master Sifo-Dyas died on Felucia. In the fifth quarter, a small skirmish broke out between the native Felucians. Master Sifo-Dyas was assigned to negotiate peace talks between the tribes. The negotiations failed, and Sifo-Dyas was killed."

PLO KOON: "What became of his body?"

JOCASTA: "I'm afraid I cannot answer that. Any further information on this incident has been sealed."

MACE: "On whose authority?"

JOCASTA: "By the office of the Supreme Chancellor."

MACE: "Thank you, Madame Jacosta."

YODA: To Felucia, Skywalker and Kenobi will go. A trail long cold it is, yet still lay hidden there a clue might be. Question all who were present the day of Sifo-Dyas' death, you must."

Who would give such an order? Certainly not the Jedi. Certainly not the non clone military personnel. Certainly not the Chancellor.

That doesn't mean that he distrusts him. He looks at him after he finishes Padme's sentence, which doesn't mean that he distrusts him. If he didn't trust him, he wouldn't have told him about the Clone Army at all.

Sensing the creation, yes. Knowing where it is and who is making it, a different matter. Which would be why they would think that Sifo-Dyas hid Kamino, hoping that the Sith wouldn't find it.

Being illegal doesn't mean much. The identity of the purchaser could be false, but could also be true. Not reasonable to suspect foul play.

The Jedi Council want to question Jango, in order to get to the bottom of this. Which means that they're not clueless. It just means that they had only one verifiable witness and that witness lost his head. So that means that we have to conclude that they think Sifo-Dyas had to have done it, without their knowing it. Regardless of what TCW says.

If they were satisfied, then why bring Jango back for questioning? Padme's assassination attempt? Maybe. But Obi-wan could hang out there and wait to see what turns up. Taking him back is about Sifo-Dyas.

Or Sifo-Dyas hired Tyranus to find Jango and pay for this army, but was killed on Felucia before he could sign off on Jango and Tyranus then decided to fulfill the contract despite the Jedi Master's death, by sending Jango to Kamino to begin the process.

Why would he bring up Sifo-Dyas's name? Jango knows that the Clone Army was requested by the Senate for the Republic. He knows that the Jedi were involved since he says, "Do you like your army?" Is it a prerequisite to know the name of the Jedi involved, if Tyranus hired him?

Why? He's not giving a full report. Just the basics.

Where was it established that they don't know? Taun We never says, "We do not know who Tyranus is. We never heard of this person."

This is only if they have reason to believe that other scenarios are possible. Even police officers will stick with one possibility until they're given reason to believe otherwise.

That's a leap in logic. What proof is there that he hasn't taken any other job in ten years? He's there to supply fresh DNA. That doesn't mean that he's kept there and hasn't left until recently.

Having Jango involved isn't proof of something sinister with both situations. Just one.

What was Sifo-Dyas doing before he left for Felucia? He was in the Temple, wasn't he? Couldn't he have erased Kamino before leaving? We don't know what date it was erased. Hell, Jocasta didn't even know it was erased. Meaning it could have been erased well before his death.

So why not claim his army? Why create it for the Jedi? Why would it mean that only Dooku could have erased it? Maybe Jocasta erased it. Maybe Qui-gon erased it. Maybe Yaddle erased it. Lots of possibilities.

What makes you think that they didn't do that?

How can you prove any of that? Why would he leave a trail like that to implicate himself?

Why suspect that he created an army that he never claimed?

What stink eye?



How does this become a stink eye? He's looking over at him.

They're not worried about him in AOTC. They're worried in ROTS and they don't think that he'd order the clones to do anything malicious. They're thinking that he's just interested in acquiring more and more political power, which he won't give up. That doesn't mean that he would stage a coup. Also, what proof is there that he knows that the clones will obey any order without question? Remember, they don't think he is a Sith until they're told.