PT Why did the Jedi just accept the clone army?

How in anyway could the clones have any bearing on the dynamics of a bipartisan system? The clones have no notion of consensus or of multilateralism.

The clones form the component of what is effectively a utilitarian philosophy, sinister in the sense that it can become unilateral - the pursuit of the greatest happiness regardless of moral cost. Notice how clones also lie outside the framework of right and wrong, which is another obstructive element to positive utility.

The clones are also a good example of the mantra "ignorance is bliss" - and this is ironic, because it's almost the exact opposite of the Jedi belief in enlightenment and knowledge of the Force. What a mess they got themselves into...

 

Because our bipartisan system is an illusion when it comes to our militaristic ideology. It's a bipartisan consensus. When it comes to militarism, we're a monoculture just like the clones. The two parties disagree about exactly how our military is to be used, but there is no fundamental disagreement that it is to be used to enforce our will on other nations for reasons that have less to do with genuine self-defense and more to do with general self-interest.

Episode II is about a peaceful, enlightened civilization turning into a society of killer clones, and how that occurs, with the literal clone army itself serving as an extreme sci-fi representation of what we ourselves are in danger of becoming (much like the monocultural clone society depicted in THX 1138).

Knowing Lucas, I have a hard time seeing stuff like this as anything other than a critique of our regimented, one-size-fits-all educational system which drills its subjects' brains with ideology and turns them into drones subservient to the authoritarian state, which looms over all like an Orwellian nightmare:





It's incredibly potent imagery.

 

Clone army was handy and it seems the war began right on Geonosis and fell down since that moment like a snowball, faster and faster, leaving no other choices, up until RotS. Clones were useful, practical and safe choice. I bet someday Council thank Sifo-Dyas, while knowing that such an surprising gift most likely will backfire them later.

 

The_Phantom_Calamari

Yes, there is that representation of the Clone Army - as a critique of indoctrination and specifically military indoctrination to achieve a political end. The question being asked is "Is it morally wrong for the Republic to wield these clones as a weapon?"

Yet we also have to fit the clones into wider message of the Clone War. The Military Creation Act, for example, illustrates the struggle between adopting the military mono-culture, or rejecting it in favor of diplomacy. And the same question is posed of the Jedi, but they sit on their rights, so to speak, and play along with the Republic's decision.

Now, humanity as a whole, you can argue, has the innate desire to impose it's will, in order to pursue power. But power and will are not "negative" qualities, they can be defined in many ways. Bipartisanship is more an agreement of political policy, usually for the mutual benefit of individuals and organizations. Bipartisanship is an irrelevant term when talking about leveraging power because that is something which all political bodies do as a matter of course. And it is even less relevant to the clones themselves, because they themselves are not political, they are only used as a tool by political forces - there is an important distinction.

When you create a monoculture, you gradually eliminate culture altogether, because you start to define the people of a society by their purpose rather than by their achievement or diversity. That is why non-sentient objects cannot have culture, they can only have purpose - just like a hammer is designed with a purpose to crush objects. It has no culture because it has one single identity which cannot evolve or change internally. The clones indeed, still have an identity, one which they are consciously aware of, but it has no relevance to them beyond basic description, because it only defines their purpose.

 

No other option for them- Sifo Dyas was a respected Jedi Master after all and although the Council obviously wouldn't have approved of his actions, they had no choice but to accept it now especially since they surely realized reluctantly that he had been correct all along in some ways.

 

That is assuming that Sifo-Dyas DID order the clone army. Which the film suggests he didn't do.
Like Obi-Wan saying he was dead before the order was placed, Jango never having heard of him.

And right about what?
The films never show Sifo-Dyas and all we know about him is that he was a Jedi master that sat on the council and he was killed about ten years before AotC.

The Jedi had little choice yes in that the republic was about to get attacked and it was not really their choice, the senate made the choice to use the clones.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

In Legends material, Sifo-Dyas did indeed order the Army officially with the help of Darth Plagueis and the template was eventually chosen by Dooku after Plagueis was dead. Sifo-Dyas was aware of the growing unrest in the Galaxy and was eventually convinced by Plagueis to commission the Army for the Republic (https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas/Legends#Biography).

In canon, he took it upon himself to do the project against the Council's permission in secret and the use of the Clone Army was taken over by the Sith after his death(https://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas).

 

And ZERO of this is shown, talked about or even remotely implied IN the films.
So as explanations go, it is not that useful.
As the vast majority of the audience would only see the films and not be aware of any of this.

If the film was made with the intent that the audience would be aware of this, then we have a plot hole.
If not, then the film is unable to stand on it's own two feet and tell a coherent narrative as you need books, TV-series etc to make sense of the plot.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Everything in AOTC correctly points to Dooku (and by extension, Sidious) being behind the creation of the army and having used the identity of a killed Jedi as an alias to misdirect any possible investigation by the Jedi.

The film stands perfectly on its own.

 

I agree that AotC very much suggest that Sifo-Dyas had nothing at all to do with the clone army and his name was just used by Dooku/Sidious.

But I have lost count how many times I have been told; "No, Sifo-Dyas really DID order the clone army" and various books, comics, webpages etc are used as sources.
If AotC and RotS were made with the intent that Sifo-Dyas was not involved in this, then they mostly work.
If they were made with the intent that Sifo-Dyas really was responsible, then things are missing.

Were I disagree is that Sifo-Dyas works as a misdirect.
The Jedi learn enough to very much doubt that Sifo-Dyas had anything to do with this.
Obi-Wan says that as far as he knows, Sifo-Dyas was killed before the order was placed.
And then the whole thing is mostly ignored.

Based on just the films, who do the Jedi think ordered the clone army?
Do they think it is Sifo-Dyas?
Why?
Given what is said in the films, this does not seem likely.

If they don't think he was responsible, who was?
Do they try to find out?
By the time of RotS, have they reached any conclusions?

For Sifo-Dyas to work as a misdirect, don't have Obi-Wan say that he was killed before the order was placed as that pretty much ruins that aspect.
Have Sifo-Dyas be dead but his death was after the order. The Jedi admit that he could have done this but think it odd. Then we the audience learn that Dooku is behind it.
So we know the truth but the Jedi have enough of a reson to believe that Sifo-Dyas did this.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

The fact that the movie establish that the timing of his death is not something concrete (only that he was killed around that time), it leaves the door open for the possibility. At least, as far as the Jedi know. That doesn't mean they think he did order the army. But it does mean that they don't know. And leaving the Jedi in this confusing and ignorant position about what really happened (or didn't happen), without any leads or trails to follow, is what the Sith intended.

But as far as the audience goes, we do have all the information needed. We know that Dooku was a Jedi once (and therefore was able to delete Kamino from the archives), he's Darth Tyranus (who hired Jango to be the template), he's a Count (royalty, he has the means to pay the Kaminoans for the order).

Even if it is unlikely, it's not impossible. In any case, the Jedi shouldn't discard nor assume anything without evidence.

That's why it's presented as an impression that he has, as opposed to a fact. He also says that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost 10 years ago to the Kaminoans. So he makes to contradicting statements and nobody is able to correct him. Therefore we can only infer that the specific date for when he died is not something definitive, but limited within a timeframe.

That's basically what happens in the movie.

 

No the time of Sifo-Dyas death is not something that is established as vague or not concrete.
Obi-Wan hears his name and within seconds is able to give an approximate time of death.
And if Obi-Wan was unsure if he remembered correctly, he could have asked Mace and Yoda.
He did not and neither did they ask for details.
So the time of Sifo-Dyas death is not presented as unknown.

What Obi-Wan says, "I was under the impression.." is because he has just been told something that makes no sense. A Jedi master apparently ordered a clone army AFTER he was killed.
These two things conflict and thus he says what he did and also asks Mace and Yoda of the council knew about this. Mace denies this and uses "Whoever" when talking about the person behind this.
So as far as the film goes, the Jedi very much don't consider Sifo-Dyas as being behind this.

The Jedi also know that Dooku was once a Jedi and could have deleted the file.
The Jedi know that Jango works for Dooku so he could be this Tyrannus.
The Jedi also know that he is a Count. And a Count does not have to be royalty, most often it is not.
A Duke is often royalty, a Count could be a title without any land.
And since Jedi are taken in at birth and have no connection to their old life, why would Dooku have any money? If any money did exist, it would go to his other relatives.
And anyway, why would this mean he has the amount of money needed to pay for this huge army?
This would be extremely expensive, an army plus a fleet of ships.
Ex, the King of Sweden has a private fortune but that is a fraction of the total budget for the Swedish military.

They have evidence, Obi-Wan has been told when the army was ordered and the Jedi know when Sifo-Dyas died. So simply look at those dates, if Sifo-Dyas death occurred before the order was placed, which Obi-Wan says in the film, then the Jedi have clear evidence that Sifo-Dyas did NOT order the army.

This would be a very quick and simple thing to do.
The film does not bring it up, so either they did this and confirmed what Obi-Wan said.
Or they did and found that Obi-Wan was wrong, but then that should be IN the film.
Or the Jedi were too dumb to think of it.

No, again the "under impression" is because there is conflict between when Sifo-Dyas was killed and when he supposedly ordered the clone army. The former occurred before the latter, which makes this impossible.

When President Muffley in Dr Strangelove says;

The President is not going on some impression, it is a fact that he had been told.

[/QUOTE]

Not really, in order to make it super clear to the audience, the Jedi learn far too much for them to think that Sifo-Dyas was involved.
Like Jango never having heard of him and him working for Dooku.
Like Obi-Wan saying that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered.
Like Mace using "Whoever" when talking about the person behind this.

The shooting script had Sido-Dyas, a fake Jedi and both Obi-Wan and Mace/Yoda knew that right away.
So too obvious that the army was ordered under a fake name.
So then we have a real but dead Jedi. Better in theory but since Obi-Wan he was killed before the army was ordered and we have no reason to doubt that, then the situation is pretty much the same.
The army was ordered under a fake name and the Jedi know it.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I was under the impression that "under the impression" meant something is uncertain. Either because it was at one time certain and now suddenly new info puts it in doubt or because it was never known for sure at all.

Either way, the entire Sifo-Dyas lead seems like it is ultimately a false clue created by a rewrite of the script. It was originally a Jedi named Sidious. That was too on the nose and this new name Sifo-Dyas was created to add an extra layer of mystery, instead of just upfront saying Palpatine ordered it.

Of course because of the rewrite we don't know who did the ordering, other than Tyrannus is the one who picked Jango Fett.

For me it works. And it works because we never know the truth. It's easy to get hung up on it. But the ulitmate answer is the Sith are involved in created the Jedi's army. It's a trap.

 

Approximate. Not concrete. Vague enough to not being able to determine wether he died before or after the order was placed.

Yes, it is. You literally don't know wether he died before or after the order was placed. Obi-Wan doesn't know. Mace and Yoda didn't clarify either. So yes, the movie presents its exact timing as unknown to the Jedi.

And when he was talking to the Kaminoans he says he was killed after.

Mace denies that the Council ever authorized the creation of the army. And yes, he correctly says whoever. Because they don't know who ordered it.

As far as the film goes, the Jedi don't know who is behind it. Sifo-Dyas or someone else.

So can every other Jedi. They have no reason to jump to Dooku. Specially after they secretly overheard his plans.

Or not. Jango is a bounty hunter. He has a variety of clients. And the Jedi know why Jango is with Dooku in AOTC: Padmé.

You are being pedantic. The intent is to show that he's an aristocrat and is wealthy.

Jedi are not taken from birth, they are accepted as 1-year old infants. And infants do have family. Dooku left the order, so he regained whatever he abandoned when he joined the order.

I'm talking from the audience's perspective. He, unlike any other Jedi, is an aristocrat and does have possessions. And if you need to be this pedantic over this detail, ignore it. Assume that his master is able to pay for it. My point is that the movie makes it a point to direct the audience towards Dooku.

No. They don't have evidence. So much so that you aren't able to cite anything from the movie that establishes the precise timing of Dyas' death.

Obi-Wan says nothing for a fact. He makes an assumption. And the other characters aren't able to clarify. So for all intents and purposes, nothing precise is established for the timing of his death. Only that it was around the time the order was placed.

Assuming that they have concrete evidence of the timing. But that's an assumption.

Or none of the above, as I've explained more than once a perfectly valid argument that you continue to ignore.

You don't know that. The Jedi say no such thing as fact.

 

No it does not have to mean uncertain.
It simply means there is conflict between what you knew and something that has happened.
If a friend says that he will bring one other person to dinner and instead brings two, you could say "I was under the impression that you would only bring one other guest."
So there was no uncertainty about what you were told, just that the friend did not do what he said earlier.

Or, Elvis died August 16, 1977, if you come across someone that says he saw Elvis December 12, 1977, you could respond with "I was under the impression he was dead by that time."
Again, the date when Elvis died is not unknown, just that you have been told something that conflicts with what you knew.

To me this plot it does not work because the Jedi learn far too much for them to seriously consider Sifo-Dyas as the one behind this. They don't know exactly who was responsible but the amount of evidence they have that speaks against Sifo-Dyas is too large for me to ignore.
Remove the line about Sifo-Dyas being dead when the army was ordered and it would work better.

As is, and because the whole thing is dropped after Kamino, the Jedi come across as stupid.

No, again NOTHING in the film implies the Jedi does not know when Sifo-Dyas was killed.
Not one person says anything about the exact date being unknown or vague.

Obi-Wan is told about Sifo-Dyas and says he was killed almost ten years ago. He said that within seconds of being told about him. The SW films do not have an established calendar so he could not say, "He was killed November 11th, 1989."
Later he says that the order for the clone army was placed almost ten years ago but that Sifo-Dyas was killed before this date. As far as he knows.
And both dates could be less than ten years ago and yet the date of the order could be after Sifo-Dyas death.
If the order was placed nine years and seven moths ago and Sifo-Dyas was killed nine years and ten months ago. Both dates are "Almost ten years ago" but the date of the order is clearly AFTER Sifo-Dyas death. Meaning he could not have done it.

Obi-Wan did know, that is why he brings it up to Mace and Yoda.
They didn't question it nor ask for details, so the film shows that they accept what he is saying.

WRONG!
When he said to Lama Su that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago, he had NOT been told when the army was ordered.
So he said nothing about Sifo-Dyas death being before or after the date the army was ordered as he did not yet know that date.

And after that, this plot point is totally ignored so the film never shows the Jedi thinking that Sifo-Dyas did order the army. So, based on the film, the Jedi have this mystery army, ordered by persons unknown.
That is reason enough to be suspicious.

Since Obi-Wan said that Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered, the Jedi have no reason to think he was behind it. The fact that Jango did not know the name is another reason why they would doubt Sifo-Dyas involvement.

Other than the major detail that the clone army template is working for him.

As I have said many times, in a whole galaxy's worth of bounty hunters, only a total idiot would dismiss this connection out of hand.

The film makes no point in connecting his title to wealth of any kind, nor does it say at what age Jedi are taken in. All we know is that they are very young.
The film points towards Dooku because Jango works for him and we learn that he was the person who hired Jango to be the template.
That he has any money due to his title is not found anywhere in the film.

Yes they do have evidence, that they don't say the exact date of Sifo-Dyas death does not mean they don't know it.
Han never says exactly how old he is but that does not mean he does not know.

Obi-Wan knows that Sifo-Dyas is dead and when he died, that is said IN the film.
He has also been told, off-screen, when the army was placed and that it was at the request of the senate.
And according to Obi-Wan, Sifo-Dyas was already dead when the army was ordered.
So he could not have done that.

If Obi-Wan was unsure about when Sifo-Dyas died, he should have ASKED Mace and Yoda.
For him not to do this very simple thing is idiotic.
And if Mace and Yoda have doubts, ask Obi-Wan for the exact date the army was ordered, so they can verify or deny his conclusions.
But again they do not.

Really, right after Yoda just scolded him to NOT assume anything, he goes right ahead and makes another assumption?
You are not making Obi-Wan look any smarter.

Not really as nothing in the film establishes that they don't know either date and as I said, Obi-Wan was just told NOT to assume things.

The film is the one who ignores this whole thing after Obi-Wan's report. So this plot point is just abandoned.
Lucas did say that Sifo-Dyas would be brought up in RotS but that didn't happen.
So we are left with this unresolved plot point.

[/QUOTE]

Yes they do because again, Obi-Wan was scolded about making assumptions and his next sentence is about Sifo-Dyas being killed before the order was placed.
So unless you think Obi-Wan is a retard that is told not to do a thing and goes right ahead and does it anyway, he would only bring this up if he was quite sure about it.

And IF they didn't know when Sifo-Dyas died, then that should have been established in the film.
But the film makes no mention at all that there is doubt when Sifo-Dyas died.
I know that some EU tried to establish that the Jedi didn't know the date when Sifo-Dyas died.
But that is not in the film.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

What you quote is an adapted use of the phrase to not be rude while also voicing concern. The person was not "under the impression" two people were coming to dinner. The host was told two people were showing up. Now three show up. But the dinner host does not want to be rude so they ad uncertainty to their statement to make it less rigid and more inviting.

The speaker of your sentence is feign uncertainty for the sake of social decorum. So yes, again this is adding uncertainty because your speaker wants to still have an
enjoyable dinner party.

Same thing with Elvis. Instead of saying "You're a loon to think Elvis is still alive." They are more diplomatic about it so as to avoid a drawn out conversation with a loon.

I'm surprised for you of all people to overlook the niceties of social decorum to smooth over interactions with other people.

 

Then I can use Dr Strangelove;

So again, no uncertainty on behalf of the President, he was told he was the only one with this authority and he was correct.
What happened is that Gen Ripper managed to exceed his authority.

So what I have shown is that "I was under the impression" does not HAVE to mean uncertainty.

It can mean a conflict between what a person knew beforehand and what they have just been told.
In this case, Obi-Wan has just been told a Jedi Master he knows to be dead, apparently ordered a clone army after his death.
Something does not add up here and thus he would be wondering what is going on.

Also, consider what Obi-wan says right after this.

Remember, Obi-Wan is not on the council and thus he would not be privy to all their decisions and orders.
So he asks Mace and Yoda if this was ever talked about on the council.

And they quickly deny any knowledge of this.

But he did ask, which makes sense. This might have been a secret order made by the council with the blessing of the senate but one that he didn't know about since he is not a Master.

And again, if there is some doubt in Obi-Wans mind about when Sifo-Dyas died, ASK Mace and Yoda.
He is talking to them and it would take a couple of seconds for him to do so.
And if the date of Sifo-Dyas death is unclear, why does he say this when he was just told by Yoda to NOT assume anything?
For that matter, why doesn't Mace and Yoda ask for the exact date the army was ordered so they can try and see how well it fits with what they know of Sifo-Dyas death?

Determining if Sifo-Dyas could have done this or not is pretty important and yet the Jedi seem rather disinterested in digging deeper and they don't ask very obvious question.
Either they have concluded that it wasn't Sifo-Dyas or they don't care, which is stupid.

Neither Mace nor Yoda show any indication that they think Obi-wan is wrong about Sifo-Dyas being dead when the army was ordered. Mace even says "Whoever" when talking about the person behind it.
And then the whole thing is just forgotten.

Did the Jedi dig deeper and if so, what did they find out?
Not answered.
Who do the Jedi think did this?
Not answered.
What do the Jedi think about Jango working for Dooku?
Not answered.
Who do the Jedi think deleted the Kamino file?
Not answered.

The writing here is not good, the Jedi are given too many clues and a mystery is set up for them but then there is no follow up. The whole thing is just dropped.

We the audience know enough to say with a high degree of certainty that Sifo-Dyas was not involved.
And we can see that the Jedi learn more than enough to think this as well.
So for us to assume that the Jedi did think that Sifo-Dyas really did this is not reasonable.
We know he didn't and based on what we know that the Jedi know, they would not think so either.
So when people tell me to assume that the Jedi did dig deeper, I can not make up a scenario where the Jedi find evidence that Sifo-Dyas really did order the army.
Because that runs counter to what the film is telling me.

Lastly, and I have asked this many times, why have Obi-wan say;

If we should just ignore it?
And after he was just told;

Why have these lines if not to tell the audience and the Jedi that Sifo-Dyas was likely not involved?

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

What a great movie Dr. Strangelove is! But again, the President in that is portrayed as a weak and ineffectual leader, which is part of the humor. He's one of the most powerful people in the world but he doesn't act like it as he suffers over decisions and listens to lots of advisors. He weakens his own statement by saying "Under the impression." He is using it politely and politically because he's a politician. That's how he ingratiated himself with others to become a successful politician and what got him the top job as president. He won a popularity contest. And now that he's in, he isn't changing his act. To be popular you feign uncertainty for the sake of social decorum.

He'd rather be loved than be right.

 

I disagree with your assessment of the President in the film.
He was made to be the one of the few serious voices in this dark comedy.
And he is shown to be trying to fix this gigantic mess.

Also, he becomes quite short and terse to General Turgidson and he does hold back his opinion.

This to me does not fit with what you tried to make him out to be. He speaks his mind and is not bothered by any hurt feelings.

So again, "I was under the impression" does not have to mean uncertainty.

It means simply that something you were told, shown or otherwise thought you knew is in conflict with something that you have just been told or shown.

Either what you knew before is in some way incorrect/misunderstood or the new thing is in some way incorrect/misunderstood.

It is certainly possible that Obi-wan was wrong about when Sifo-Dyas was killed. It is also possible that the Kamino people lied to him about when the army was ordered. But the film does not establish or even hint at either. So it is illogical for us to assume such things for no reason.

The other possibility is that Obi-wan is totally correct and Sifo-Dyas was killed before the army was ordered and thus he had nothing to do with it. To me, the film quite clearly suggest this.

Also, Obi-wan is talking to Mace and Yoda and giving his report.
They know less about this than he does and he should just report on the facts. He would not be bothered by revealing uncomfortable facts or that he would hurt their feelings. He is not having dinner with them and they would expect him to give a clear report and not hold back on things.
And again, he was just scolded about making assumptions, if he does not know when Sifo-Dyas died, then he is making an assumption. Which he was just told not to do.
If he is unsure, ask them. Why is that so hard to do?

Lastly, look at this from Obi-Wan's pov.
He is ordered to protect Padme from another assassination attempt.
He does so and he and Anakin capture the assassin but she is killed before she can talk.
He digs deeper and gets the name of a planet, Kamino.
But when he goes to the jedi archives, the planet is not to be found.
So he goes to Yoda and after being a little too thick, he realizes that someone deleted the file.
But the wrinkle is that only a Jedi could have done this.

So he goes to Kamino and finds out that an army for the republic is being made there, the same republic that is right now debating the creation of an army. Odd coincidence.
Odder still is that a Jedi Master is said to have ordered the army. So this is the second thing that points to a Jedi being involved.

But then another wrinkle, said Jedi Master is dead and has been for something like ten years. A bit fishy.
Then he talks to the clone template, who he is now sure is involved in the attempt on Padme, who just happens to be a strong voice against an army.
And he learns that this template was not hired by this Jedi who supposedly ordered the army and in fact, he has never heard of him. The plot thickens.
Then to put the cherry on this suspicious sundae, he is told when this order was placed and that it was at the request of the senate. The senate never officially made any such request and the date of the order was apparently after the date when the Jedi Master was killed.

Even Homer Simpson would find this a little strange.

So to sum up, Obi-Wan knows that Sifo-Dyas is dead, that he was killed even and he knows when he died. All this is established in the film.
He is told by the Kamino people when the order was placed and this was apparently after Sifo-Dyas death.
He reports as much to Mace and Yoda. They ask no questions about the dates and neither does Obi-Wan, They don't debate if Sifo-Dyas could have done this and instead call the person behind this "Whoever".
And then the whole thing is forgotten.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

Which is what he is doing by saying "I was under the impression"

Yes, yes, and no.

 

But what time-frame does he give for the order of the clone army?
"Almost ten years ago". Not very specific.
If Sifo-Dyas was killed also "Almost ten years ago" how would Mace and Yoda be able to answer this question?
Obi-Wan did not give an exact date, as in years, month and days, when the order was placed, nor did he give a date.
So how could they verify his question?
Obi-Wan did not give them enough information.

UNLESS, IF Sifo-Dyas was killed more than ten years ago, at least that is what Obi-Wan thinks, then Mace and and Yoda could answer his question. If he has wrong, they could say "Why do you say that, Sifo-Dyas was killed nine years and seven months ago. When exactly was the army ordered?"
But they don't.
If they also think that Sifo-Dyas was killed more than ten years ago, they have no need to question this.
In the film, they say nothing, which means they accept what he says and take it as being correct for now.
And Mace calls the person behind this "Whoever", not "Sifo-Dyas".

[/QUOTE]

Yes he does know when he died as he says in the film that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago.
That he does not give a specific date is in no way proof that he doesn't know it.

If someone say that Elvis died a little over 40 years ago, that does not mean they don't know the date.
It could simply be that they don't feel the need to be that specific.

At no point does Obi-Wan or the other Jedi say anything that can mean that they don't know when Sifo-Dyas was killed.
Obi-Wan is puzzled because from what he knows/was told, Sifo-Dyas apparently ordered an army after his death. Which does not make sense.

Bye.
Old Stoneface

 

I think the (apparently retconned?) explanation - Sifo-Dyas ordered the Clone Army when he learnt of the Sith's plan, then his friend Dooku betrayed and killed Sifo-Dyas and stole the army for the Sith - was a much more interesting and Star Warsy backstory than what it sadly seems is implied by the final films. It does seem the official explanation that a Jedi was never truly involved with the creation of the Grand Army makes more sense with what is shown onscreen.

@Samuel Vimes
Your arguments are pretty solid, I'm not going to embarrass myself with an attempt to counter each point.
I do think the fairytale aspect of the series is diminished a little if you overanalyse though, the movies are so symbolic and allegorical. The discussions on this thread of what the existence of the Clone Army really means about the GFFA and humanity itself are more interesting to me. But again, you make a lot of pretty infallible points regarding looking at the film's logic closely.
AOTC feels kind of like a dream really, with the hazy visuals in parts and surreallity in it's locations and elements of the characterisation feeling kind of like archetypes more than traditional human characters.
The Clone's origins... while are attempted to be covered with a cohesive investigation storyline, should really take a back seat to where the overarching story goes. It is largely a storyline just to start the war (which is really the beginning of the end when the Jedi choose to fight like this at all) and to give Obi-Wan his own mission and some time away from Anakin. This way he can't be the voice of Anakin's conscience when Anakin goes too far on Tattooine, only quite feebly and obliviously quip "What in blazes is he doing there?" Much like the Jedi send Obi-Wan away to Utapau while Anakin is being corrupted by Palpatine. I find the fact that Obi-Wan symbolically can't reach or truly connect with Anakin when he is needed most is more important than how logically solid Obi-Wan's espionage and war efforts are, as fun as they may be to watch.

I do think the film's logic holds up better without (from what I have heard of) the TCW contributions to the subject. Which arguably, with what the Jedi find out in the series, make the Jedi's continued use of the Clones a little bewildering.
In the films at least there is not that much the Jedi overtly or directly see that should indicate the army is a trap - just a bunch of dead ends that admittedly causes them to just give up on leads because of.
Mace mentions to Yoda their belief that the Jedi's power is diminishing, and in a deleted AOTC scene states to Obi-Wan the disturbance in the force is making it hard for them to get a grasp on things. It's a plot device, but it is intentionally there.
Ultimately the idea that the Jedi shouldn't have used the army is kind of the point. It is part of their demise, but they didn't see any other option.
The Jedi are duped, and their logic while perhaps lacking (in AOTC at least, I find the internal logic of ROTS makes more sense) does make them appear less malicious in the grand scheme. They had to lose for the story to work, their good intentions are ultimately for nought. It could have been set up better I guess, but the tragic element is still strong.

 

He's puzzled because that's the impression he was under. But neither Mace nor Yoda go, "That's correct." They just give each other puzzled looks and say, "Whoever placed that order did not have the authorization of the Jedi Council." Indicating ambiguity and confusion over the matter.

It's not outright stated, but I can tell you from many discussions on these forums over the years that many people took that to indicate that the time of Sifo-Dyas's death was known but not known for certain. And then TCW confirmed that interpretation. So while I think it could have been made more clear in the film, I don't think it's a catastrophic flaw of writing, since many people drew the correct conclusion.

By the time the Jedi find out that the Sith were behind the clones, they've already served side-by-side with the clones in battle for years. They don't know why the Sith were behind their creation, but they know for certain that the clones are good men and true allies. And in the thick of a full-scale ware that's been raging continuously for the past several years, there's no time to think about it. Yoda even outright states that though the revelations are troubling and indicative of a plot, the Jedi have no choice at this point but to continue along the same course and just hope they can discern the trick before it's too late. It's actually a very interesting dynamic that ties in with Yoda's mind-state throughout all three films: He knows the path he's leading the Jedi down is potentially leading them towards disaster, but he has no idea what else he's supposed to do, because the only alternative appears to be certain defeat.

You should really give TCW a chance. I understand why a lot of it might sound nonsensical out of context, but if you watch the show everything really does make more sense.

 

Right. Meaning, as TCW pointed out, the Jedi weren't aware of Sifo-Dyas' precise movements prior to his death. What they knew was that he was given a mission by them, which he was setting out to do when he was killed. They don't know what he was doing two days earlier. Much like they couldn't know what Obi-wan and Qui-gon were doing on Tatooine, when they were assigned to go to Naboo. Or Obi-wan doesn't know what Anakin's doing on Tatooine, when he was told to stay on Naboo.

 

There is more to it on the The Clone Wars than that.

Sifo-Dyas was conducting secret negotiations with the Pyke Syndecate on their home world of Oba Diah to end a crime war. Before his work was finished the Jedi Council contacted Sifo-Dyas and request he immediately go to Felucia to settle a conflict that had broken out. Some how Dooku was aware of this and struck a deal with the Pykes to kill Sifo-Dyas, but they only know Dooku as Tyrannous. Sifo-Dyas shuttle is intercepted by the Pykes as it is leaving and crashes on Oba Diah's moon. Inspecting the crash site, the Pykes find Sifo-Dyas dead body at the crash site.

The Pykes give Sifo-Dyas body to Tyrannous as part of the deal. Jocastu Nu says that Sifo-Dyas died on Felucia. But the Jedi know so little about it they send Obi-Wan and Anakin tp investigate this further on Felucia and find out Sifo-Dyas was cremated by a local tribe after his body was brought and left there by a second unknown Jedi.

So if we can use the Clone Wars in this discussion it is very much unclear to the Jedi precisely when or even where Sifo-Dyas died or under what circumstances.