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PT Why did the Jedi not present evidence at the Senate or take a more active role in TPM?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by DarthTalonx, Dec 1, 2014.

  1. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    The TF tried to murder two of their numbers, don't they Jedi have any legal recourse here? Can't they charge the TF with murder and attempted murder? And the Jedi seemed to be able to stretch the law somewhat in AotC. Anakin saying "Jedi business, go back to your drinks."
    Obi-wan had no orders to go to Geonosis and yet he went and I didn't see the republic trying to arrest him for it.
    And by the logic you seem to argue, if a hostile army landed on Coruscant and started killing people, unless the Jedi got an order from the senate to stop this army, they would just stand idly by.
    As I said at the start, the Republic has been attacked and republic citizen have been killed and a planet invaded. This is very serious. Add to that the Senate's total inability to do anything about it. And add to that the possibility that their worst enemy are back.
    And yet the jedi hide behind rules and regulations and prefer to do nothing?
    The Jedi KNEW that the invasion was real and the TF could be attacking other worlds as far as they know. And they won't try to stop them as that could be illegal?

    The latter parts of TPM has some really contrived things, like the TF deciding to remove all but one of their ships for no reason. And Padme deciding to go back despite not knowing this. Qui-Gon taking Anakin along to a war zone with little to no thought of his safety until they are right in the middle of the enemy's stronghold and then he decides to have Anakin hide in a fueled and armed fighter. The plot needs these things to happen and so they do, it just bothers me when plot demands are this glaring.

    But Palpatine never gave Obi-Wan any orders about Jango, he only suggested that Obi-Wan protect Padme. And Obi-wan pints out to Anakin that their mandate is protection, nothing more. He gets orders from Mace and Yoda to find the assassin and later to bring Jango back. But Palpatine didn't ok any of it.


    Bye for now.
    The Guarding Dark[/quote]

    VERY GOOD ANSWER. I agree with all of these points.

    The Jedi are within their mandate. Valorum took legal action in sending official ambassadors to Naboo to meet the TF. This was known to all and sundry.

    The TF attempted to murder the ambassadors. This is an illegal act! They then invade Naboo, a Republic world. This is an illegal act! This is witnessed by the Chancellor's official ambassadors. And yet they are not presented before the Senate?

    Two Jedi witnessed events at Naboo and then the appearance of an apparent Sith on Tatooine - a lethal enemy thought dead for a millennia, yet the Jedi Council does not send any more Jedi to investigate this? There may have been other missions, but none to keep them so overstretched as in AOTC.

    And despite Palpatine using executive authority to order protection for Senator Amidala, the Jedi Order seems to investigate the assasins and the cloning facilities, etc. This must be either because they are overstepping their mandate or they are within their mandate. I think the latter. So why did they not act like so in TPM?

    There was an actual invasion in TPM. There were clear enemies in plain sight, unlike in AOTC, where the enemies were hidden till the reveal at the end. The Jedi appear content to do nothing and follow deliberate delaying procedures in the Senate.

    Had they acted then, had they had the will to act, many things could have been prevented. Whilst Palpatine's plan was incredibly clever, a lot was given to him on a plate by those who had become complacent, apathetic and self entitled.
     
  2. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    AGREE!! When they are discussing a committee, another pod could have launched to the middle of the floor and the Chancellor or Queen stating "Two Republic ambassadors witnessed all these events". The fact that they were Jedi would have only acted to their merit.
     
  3. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    That's another thing. I mean, according to this, one Senator could have then called for a vote of no confidence when Palpatine was declaring himself Emperor. Who knows, Senator Amidala, Senator Organa or even Senator Binks might have been voted as a new Supreme Chancellor instead.
     
  4. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Agreed with all those points.

    The ambassadors were sent legally. The fact that they are Jedi/Gungan/Human/Rodian has no bearing on this.

    The fact that they are Jedi would work in their favor as they would be trusted and respected.

    It seems bizarre that the Queen does not bring this up, nor does Valorum. It seems coincidental that Senator Palpatine also omits this from his list of possible routes to take to convince the Senate. And it seems coincidental that he can't hide his happiness when his name is put forward to replace Valorum who suddenly fell to a no confidence vote that was initially subtly suggested to his Queen by himself...

    Agreed on if this is how the Republic works, then they don't have a right to stop the CIS. They should be consistent in their actions.

    The Jedi have a legal mandate to investigate. Their involvement seems to vary between TPM and AOTC for no reason. This is before any emergency powers are granted too.
     
  5. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    DarthTalonx Please read the pinned thread in this forum about double posts (or in your case multiple back to back to back posts).
     
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  6. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Fair enough. I was just replying to different posts though.
     
  7. Bazinga'd

    Bazinga'd Saga / WNU Manager - Knights of LAJ star 7 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Within 1 hour of your original post you can edit your post and address those additional sections. No biggie though , it was just a teaching point.
     
  8. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Repeating an unproven claim doesn't make it true. Nothing in the film establishes that Valorum HAD to get Senate approval or that he broke the law in any way.
    And the jedi could not hope to remain anonymous as word of this would get out once they had done their job.


    Again you keep repeating an unproven assumption.
    PPOR that the Jedi couldn't testify or that them doing that would hurt Valorum.


    Why are the accusations against him relevant? Nothing in the film establishes any correlation between the two. And you still have not been able to prove that Valorum HAD to get Senate ok to send ambassadors.


    Again, IF the senate HAS to ok the sending of ambassadors then the TF would know if any such official envoy had been ok since they have a man in the senate. Since the senate did NOT agree to this and the TF would know it, they could simply tell the ambassadors to **** off as they are there in violation of the law. This did not happen. And as I said before, the sending of the ambassadors and them being Jedi would get out so secrecy doesn't work.



    Umm, Palpatine didn't have Padme there at that time, he sent out Maul to get her and ship her back to Naboo. Only when she got to Coruscant did he try and use her.
    But according to you, Palaptine knew that two Jedi had been sent even before they reached the TF ship. Despite this somehow being very illegal he made no effort to use this against Valorum right there and then or later. Nor did he warn the TF that ambassadors were coming but the they had been sent illegally. The TF could just simply refuse to see them and expose Valorum and he would be gone.
    He could even tell the TF to blast the ship before they land.

    PPOR!

    PPOR!

    What? Where are getting all this from? Nowhere IN the film is it ever established that the Jedi only ever send two Jedi, regardless of the mission. PPOR.
    Sending more that two Jedi would be an act of war? Ridiculous, PPOR.
    Also the they ARE at war, the TF has declared war on the republic, murdered republic citizens and servants of the senate and tried to murder two jedi. The TF started the war, the Jedi are only responding to it.

    More made-up stuff, nothing of the kind is ever said or implied, PPOR.
    And they sent two Jedi WITHOUT senate ok so getting a senate ok apparently wasn't needed then so why would it be now?


    Wrong, Mace said that they would ALL their resources in the matter of Maul. Sure sounds top priority to me. And how would they know how many Jedi are needed to deal with a sith? No Jedi alive, other than Qui-Gon, has fought a Sith. And Qui-Gon had to make a quick retreat so he would that Maul is quite capable. And again, they would have more than Maul to deal with, there are all the forces of the TF as well.
    The council wanted Qui-Gon to draw out the Queens attacker so they think that Maul would be on Naboo. They want to find out who he is. But if Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are killed they learn nothing.

    What negotiations for surrender? Their's or the TF's? And again the TF started the aggressions by killing the crew of their ship, trying to kill them and invading a republic planet, killing who knows how many.

    And when did Palpatine give them this authority in AotC? Scenes, lines of dialogue.

    And? No one made any mention that Obi-Wan was breaking the law in any way by doing this. They didn't reject what he said out of some foolish "cling to the rules" mentality.


    Really? The Jedi know that the TF has attacked and invaded Naboo and they had been told that the death toll was "catastrophic". Naboo belongs to the republic and the Jedi are sworn to protect said republic. And yet the TF can kill millions every hour and the Jedi will just stand idly by.



    This has what to do with what I just wrote?

    First, you guessed it, PPOR. Second, the blockade was KNOWN, it would serve no point in trying to hide something the whole republic knows about. In fact, removing the ships would draw even more attention as then people would wonder what happened. The TF and Sidious don't want people to know what they are doing on Naboo so they would still want the blockade up to stop any ships from landing. Esp since Palpatine could have warned the TF that Padme was returning and with the blockade still there, it would be a simple matter of getting her.

    She didn't sneak out, she ran the blockade and her ship got shot up rather badly and only got away because they could jump to hyperspace. Going back would not allow this and her ship could get blown up or captured.

    He had plenty of places to go, the place Padme stayed in while on Coruscant. Failing that, keep him at the Gungan hideout with Boss Nass. Taking him directly into battle isn't showing a great deal of care. If I recall correctly, the earlier versions of the script had Anakin sneak along and when Qui-Gon found out he was a bit angry but by then Anakin could not go back.

    [/QUOTE]

    No, he didn't give Obi-wan any orders at all, Palpatine never spoke to Obi-Wan in the film. Palpatine merely suggests that Padme get Jedi security and mentions Obi-Wans name. He didn't order them or her, he asked. The COUNCIL later gives Obi-Wan orders to find the killer but they don't mention any sanction from Palpatine. Palpatine gives a direct order to Padme to return to Naboo but he says nothing of any orders to Obi-Wan or the council.

    In closing, try and stick to what is actually IN the film.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
     
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  9. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Okay, thanks!
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Knowing it for certain? No, it isn't shown. However it is implied that she knows this since she never calls for them and they are not in the Senate while this is going on. Ergo, they weren't supposed to be there.

    We see them approve when the Senate goes, "Vote now!" and we know that they did support it because three candidates emerge when Palpatine and Panaka come to see Padme in her quarters.

    Then why were they sent secretly? The title crawl states that they were sent in secret and both Nute and Rune were shocked to find out that the ambassadors were Jedi. The Jedi do serve the Senate, but only when the Senate backs whatever play the Chancellor makes and they did not back this.

    The fact that they aren't there shows that they don't have the authority to bring their case to the Senate.

    Palpatine has manufactured a couple of scandals around Palpatine, which he could not disprove and as a result, he has lost a lot of his authority to act on his own. It's like taking away the President's executive powers which allows him to bypass Congress. The Jedi were sent to force a settlement, that is true which is why Palpatine said, "Eliminate them".

    So then why were they sent in secret? The Federation and the Naboo knew, but the identity of the ambassadors were not known to them. At least the Federation. And because it was a secret, the Senate did not know. Hence not being there.

    Because they weren't supposed to be there.

    There was no proof that it was the Sith. Two Jedi were sufficient. Anymore would be seen as a military action.

    In AOTC, the Jedi were given permission to find Jango.

    OBI-WAN: "We will not exceed our mandate, my young Padawan learner!"

    Meaning that they have not been given permission to do more until then.

    YODA: "Until caught this killer is, our judgement she must respect."

    MACE WINDU: "Anakin, go to the Senate and ask Chancellor Palpatine to speak with her."


    And that's why the Jedi Order was corrupt.

    Palpatine put a stop that by convincing the Senate to give him more and more authority, which essentially rendered that part of the constitution as null and void. Any action they would take would brand them as traitors.

    And yet, they were not brought in. Ergo, that is the logical conclusion.

    Nute wouldn't have a leg to stand on. Only that ambassadors were sent.


    The proof is their absence in the Senate.

    PALPATINE: "If I may say so, Your Majesty, the Chancellor has little real power... he is mired down by baseless accusations of corruption. The bureaucrats are in charge now."

    That is why. This was a punishment against him and to prevent Valorum from further acts of corruption.

    The Ambassadors were sent, though based on the reactions of Nute and Dofine, it appears that their presence was presented as a fact finding mission.

    NUTE: "Yes, yes, of coarse... ahhh... as you know, our blockade is perfectly legal, and we'd be happy to receive the Ambassadors."

    Once they learn who the ambassadors were...

    NUTE: "What?!? What did you say?"

    TC-14: "The Ambassadors are Jedi Knights, I believe."

    DOFINE: "I knew it! They were sent to force a settlement, eh."

    NUTE: "Go. Distract them until I can contact Lord Sidious."

    There's even more to Nute's response.

    NUTE: "Stay calm! I'll wager the Senate isn't aware of the Supreme Chancellor's moves here."

    Palpatine's plan was to make Padme sign the treaty. There was no need to do more than that. But because she escaped and made there, the best option now lay in letting Padme do the work for him. The Jedi would not testify and he didn't need to bring that up. And yes, Palpatine knew that the Jedi were going there because he was told by Valorum.

    PALPATINE: "...How could that be true? I have assurances from the Chancellor... his Ambassadors did arrive. It must be the... get...negotiate..."

    If there was worry about it, then the Jedi wouldn't have been sent in secret and they would have testified.

    PPOR![/quote]

    Watch the film.

    Not just the film, but in general. Two Jedi to Naboo, two to guard Padme and during the war, two to three Jedi on most missions.

    The Jedi were seen as not just peace keepers, but as soldiers for the Republic. The fact that the Council doesn't send more is proof of that.

    The Naboo situation was not an act of war on the Republic. It was the Federation taking a legal claim over Naboo, something which the Senate would consent to. The only questionable act was the methods used, which thanks to Lott Dod and Aks Moe would be covered up by creating a committee to verify the claims. An action that would take way too long and would be resolved by the time a decision was made. As to trying to kill the Jedi, there's no proof of that. Just the word of two Jedi against the Federation officers.

    MACE WINDU: "Now is not the time for this... the Senate is voting for a new Supreme Chancellor. Queen Amidala is returning home, which will put pressure on the Federation, and could widen the confrontation."


    MACE WINDU: "Protect the Queen, but do not intercede if it comes to war until we have the Senate's approval."


    QUI-GON: "The Gungans will not easily be swayed, and we cannot use our power to help her."


    DARTH SIDIOUS: "The Jedi cannot become involved. They can only protect the Queen. Even Qui-Gon Jinn will not break that conenant.... This will work to our advantage..."

    Not enough to send Jedi beyond two. They can investigate within the Archives and within the last known location of the Sith.

     
  11. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Wrong, this is circular logic where you assume as a given what you seek to prove. This gets you nowhere and proves nothing at all. Try again.



    If the TF knew that ambassadors had been sent they would also know that the senate had not agreed to this and thus they would be in their right to refuse said ambassadors. They did not do that, ergo the senate does not have to agree to this and the sending of the jedi was not illegal in any way.
    And if both TF and Naboo knew that ambassadors were coming but the TF didn't know they were Jedi, so why would Naboo that the ambassadors were Jedi? Or that their presence was illegal?
    You still have presented no proof.


    No this is once again you using circular logic and assume your conclusions.
    Their absence could be explained by Padme, Valorum and the jedi just not thinking about it.
    Or them assuming that it wouldn't be needed as they didn't think that the senate would this stupid.


    Again you are just making stuff up to suit your argument. It would be very easy for Nute to take a photo or recording of the Jedi and would be total proof that the Jedi were there. And if the senate asked the jedi order about this, would the Jedi order lie and pretend they weren't there?
    You are making less and less sense. The involvement of the Jedi WOULD become known, ergo it was not illegal by Valorum and the Jedi have no reason at all to NOT be present in the senate.


    Circular logic doesn't become less circular just because you keep repeating it.


    First, Palpatine is the villain, that gives him reason enough to LIE.
    Second, even if this is true, Valorum still has SOME power, like the power to send ambassadors and settle a dispute. Since nothing IN the film indicate that this was illegal and several things speak against it, he didn't have to ask the senate.



    Earlier you argued that the TF knew ambassadors were coming, since the senate didn't ok them and the TF would know that and could refuse them, this shows that the senate did not have to ok these ambassadors.


    The last line is not IN the film, perhaps you should watch it again.



    First, Palpatine's dialogue only shows that he knew ambassadors were coming, not that they were Jedi. Second, IF he knew about the Jedi being sent and this was such a crime, he would have contacted Nute and warned him. Nute could have been told to either refuse to see the ambassadors, as their presence was illegal or simply blow up their ship. One of the TF guys nearly messed his pants when told about the Jedi and almost surrendered on the spot. Palpatine would know the TF are less than brave so allowing the Jedi to even come onboard would be risky. Third, Palpatine could remove Valorum with ease, simply have Nute tell the senate of Valorum's illegal act. No need to bother with Padme. That neither he nor Nute ever tried to exploit this shows that this was not in fact illegal.



    And even more circular logic. The Jedi were sent in secret because Valorum was fed up with the bs in the senate and them not getting anywhere and took action to resolve this mess directly. This shows that he was not afraid and could act decisively. Then for some reason he becomes a spineless jellyfish when we get to Coruscant.


    Watch the film.[/QUOTE]

    I have and nowhere is Padme assured that her testimony enough would be sufficient. Again you should take your own advice.

    This would actually suggest that her word is NOT enough and she would then logically suggest that the Jedi be called in as witnesses. IF the issue is that the senate won't act any way then it is not a question of them believing her, they just won't act period.


    Lets see, four Jedi to arrest Palpatine, over a hundred Jedi to Geonosis. Plenty of examples of two Jedi not being some unbreakable rule.
    You are attempting to make a general conclusion from VERY little evidence.
    At the start of TPM, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent just to make a settlement, not to fight.
    Qui-Gon believed that this would not take long, so two Jedi is enough. Later they are sent into a war zone, both to protect Padme AND somehow identify Maul and find out who he is. That would call for a just a bit more people.


    You really are on a roll with this circular logic, you keep assuming your conclusions as a given.
    The Jedi are NOT soldiers per Mace's own words.

    Yes it was, it was a full planetary invasion.

    Nope not legal, Palpatine said that he would make it legal but again, he is the villain, he could be lying and he is just using the TF. If he had not assured them, they wouldn't dare to attack.
    And at the end of TPM, Nute was arrested and put on trial, which shows that it wasn't actually legal.
    He could avoid jail time because the courts were so corrupt, a point which AotC makes.


    So the word of two Jedi carry no weight? The ship that was blown up also don't matter?
    The Jedi have served the republic for many millennia, their word ought to matter.

    Nothing here that says they are not able to send more than two Jedi. And "widen the confrontation", does this mean that the TF could attack other planets? If so then even more reason to act quickly and stop them before more people die.




    How can he protect the queen if he is not allowed to intercede? If she goes to attack the TF's base and Qui-Gon is told to protect her, he would have to come along and he would have to fight the TF's forces. Sorry, any way you slice it, the Jedi ARE involved. He can't fight the whole TF army by himself but he and the Jedi are taking part in this.



    And IN the actual film Sidous only says this;
    "This will work to our advantage."


    [/QUOTE]


    Umm, as far as the jedi know, the last time the sith were around was 1000 years ago. Unless Maul is older than Yoda, he won't be in their archives. Mace said that would ALL their resources to find out the identity of Maul. Since the council believes that Maul will be on Naboo, it follows that they should send more Jedi to get him. But according to you, the Jedi will use hundreds of Jedi to look through the archives, which won't tell them anything about Maul and only two Jedi to where they think he will be.
    Yeah, the Jedi are really smart.

    The TF had a great deal more than 100 battledroids there. When faced with just two destroyer droids, the Jedi had to retreat. So Maul, who could fight Qui-Gon so well that Qui-Gon had to leave, plus an army of battle droids and who knows how many destroyer droids. Two Jedi would very likely be outmatched. So plenty of reason to send more Jedi. Unless they secretly hope that Qui-Gon will get himself killed and then they don't have to bother with any more.


    ???? Are you seriously arguing that the Jedi council don't belive Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan?
    That they doubt that the TF has tried to kill them, invaded Naboo?
    The senate didn't believe that the TF did this but are you saying that the council didn't either?
    If not, then the Council KNOWS that the TF have declared war on the republic, committed murder and attempted murder and they would know the danger the TF represents.

    Yeah the Jedi are collection of total morons along with much the rest of the galaxy. So again, in order for the plot to work, everyone except Palpatine has to be an idiot at one point or another. Glad we have settled that.


    The Sith order is over 1000 years old. Is your argument that the Senate and the Jedi order have always been this stupid and corrupt? If so then I wonder how they could have lasted this long before anyone near competent knocked them over.

    No it is not a logical deduction, it is once again you assuming your conclusions as a given.

    First, the blockade was known to the republic, removing it could get noticed and cause questions. So far better to pretend that the blockade was still going on and nothing had changed. The TF had set up the blockade to BE aggressive to the senate and force them to remove this tax.
    Second, if ships from the outside approached Naboo, with just one ship, they could not hope to keep them away and if that ship landed or spotted what was happening on the planet, word could get out and the TF don't want that. So another reason to keep the ships there.
    Third, Palpatine could have warned the TF that Padme was coming back and have ships ready to intercept her. So yet another reason to keep the blockade there.

    Not going to kill her? Qui-Gon said that they would kill her if she stayed, her ship got fired at and could easily have been blown to pieces and Sidious tells Nute to "Wipe them out, ALL of them."
    So they are totally willing to kill her.

    Firstly you argued that Anakin had nowhere else to be, I have shown this to be wrong.
    Secondly, I brought Anakin up as an example of the plot being contrived. Anakin needs to be there so he can accidentally hide in the ships, set if of by accident and fly up etc. Bringing a nine year old into a war zone is foolish and yet no one calls Qui-Gon on this. But the plot needs something to happen and so it does, regardless if it doesn't make sense.

    No you are again falling back on circular logic and assuming your conclusions.
    Palpatine suggests that the Jedi protect Padme, that's it. Nothing about giving them extra permissions or jurisdiction and nothing at all about giving the council leave to go after the killer.
    The Jedi have shown that they are perfectly capable to act without ok from the senate or orders from the chancellor.

    In closing and this got very long. To keep it shorter, until you prove your claims with actual scenes and dialogue that are IN the film, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

    Bye.
    The Guarding Dark
     
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  12. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Consulting the novelization, pages 26 and 27 state that while the Jedi serve the Chancellor when it came to life and death matters such as an assassination attempt, when it came to internal politics such as this, the Jedi cannot act without approval of the Senate. Valorum was acting against the Senate's own constitution. You want the full text?


    No, but as I said there was more. Found in the screenplay and novelization, both of which are still canon.




    And even more circular logic. The Jedi were sent in secret because Valorum was fed up with the bs in the senate and them not getting anywhere and took action to resolve this mess directly. This shows that he was not afraid and could act decisively. Then for some reason he becomes a spineless jellyfish when we get to Coruscant.[/quote]

    Valorum fell apart in the Senate because he was always spineless. His action in sending the Jedi was against the Senate and he didn't have the guts to stand up to it.


    Lets see, four Jedi to arrest Palpatine, over a hundred Jedi to Geonosis. Plenty of examples of two Jedi not being some unbreakable rule.
    You are attempting to make a general conclusion from VERY little evidence.
    At the start of TPM, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent just to make a settlement, not to fight.
    Qui-Gon believed that this would not take long, so two Jedi is enough. Later they are sent into a war zone, both to protect Padme AND somehow identify Maul and find out who he is. That would call for a just a bit more people.[/quote]

    The Jedi Posses weren't on their way to arrest Palpatine at first. They were there to conduct a meeting. It became an arrest after Anakin made his revelation. And I never said it was an unbreakable rule. Just that very rarely do Jedi send more than one pair of Jedi to resolve a conflict.


    Public perception wouldn't buy that at all.

    One that could become legal through a treaty.

    He was arrested because Padme didn't sign his treaty. She instead made him sign a treaty of surrender on his part.

    PADME: "Now, we will discuss signing a new treaty."

    Evidence, or it didn't happen. That would be used against them.

    He's talking about it turning into a battle on Naboo, not taking it to other systems.

    He can protect her, but he cannot lead as General Jinn and Commander Kenobi. Nor can they convince Boss Nass to agree to work with Padme. That is why they sit in silence once at the Sacred Place and until Padme asks their opinion.

    Considering that they never found them in ten years....

    Qui-gon left because his priority was Padme, not Maul. Nor does the Council know what Padme is going to do, other than return to Naboo.


    Not that Council. The Senate.

    No, just that the Jedi had bound themselves up in the Senate that they couldn't act on their own volition.

    The Senate and the Jedi didn't start out that way, but over time began to become that way. The Jedi who became Sith saw the flaws in the Jedi serving the Senate, which is why they rebelled against the system and went out to take control of the galaxy. They succeeded for all intents and purposes. The Jedi and what was left of the Republic fought back against the Sith, fighting on two fronts. Both in the field and in manipulating the Sith against each other. Darth Bane survived and prepared an act of revenge wherein the Sith would exploit the weaknesses of both the government and the Jedi Order.

    Palpatine contacted Nute and asked if Naboo was secure. He then told him that he is sending Maul do deal with the Jedi, thus they know she is coming back. No other ship will come because they know of the blockade, but not that it has been moved. That much is clear when they arrive and don't see ships than the control ship. Ergo, there was no longer a need for a blockade.

    Palpatine is talking about the Gungans, the Jedi and the Naboo with her. He still needs Padme right now, which is why Nute says that now she will sign the treaty, when he has Padme captured, but before Sabe speaks up.

    NUTE: "Your little insurrection is at an end, Your Highness. Time for you to sign the treaty... and end this pointless debate in the Senate."

    And again, as I pointed out, he had nowhere else to go. Qui-gon took him along and made sure that he was behind him and then told him to find cover once inside.
     
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  13. Andy Wylde

    Andy Wylde Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 26, 2014
    As far as Anakin is involved, Qui Gon tried to keep him as close by without not having him at his side during the battle. The Jedi had no obligation to watch or babysit Anakin at the temple. They could have sent him on his way into Coruscant and chance it on his own? But Qui Gon wasn't going to let that happen. So the only choice was to let Anakin join the ride to Naboo. Anakin was the one who got himself involved with the frontlines of the battle. As seen in the movie. No one ever put him into the battle zone directly. But he had to go somewhere. So Qui Gon made the right choice as far as I am choice as far as I am concerned. Since Anakin had the high midi count I would believe that he was able to communicate thru the force more than most Jedi. So I can see that the will of the force would be speaking to him but he was not aware they were. It felt natural to him and it didn't seem like something supernatural. Then that was one of the factors that helped him in the space battle.
     
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  14. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    Copying and pasting my thoughts from another thread about this very subject...

    In the opening crawl it is revealed that Chancellor Valorum had "secretly dispatched two Jedi Knights". Secretly is the key word here. Even though Valorum is Chancellor, he is under siege in the Senate, also, and the bigger deal is that the Trade Federation is in control of the bureaucrats in the Senate. Any legal action that Chancellor Valorum would have taken to send ambassadors to Naboo would have had to go through the Senate first. With the Trade Federation being as powerful as it was, they would have easily stopped any motion in the Senate for ambassadors to go to Naboo, especially if they were Jedi. We see proof of this in the scenes where Queen Amidala tries to address the Senate. Amidala is trying to go through the proper legal channels to address the invasion, and that is through the Senate. She is immediately silenced by the Trade Federation who is able to bury her motions into a committee. That is what Valorum would have faced if he openly sent the Jedi to Naboo.

    So Valorum was forced to send the Jedi in secret. The Trade Federation did not know that they were coming, and they surely didn't know they were Jedi until TC-14 informed them. While Palaptine did know that Valorum sent ambassadors and informed the Queen, he was not aware they were Jedi. We know this because when the Trade Federation contacts Sidious to tell him of the Jedi, Sidous is genuinely surprised by the news.

    While it isn't addressed in the movie, it was always my opinion that the Jedi didn't further intervene because if it was revealed that they were secretly involved in a mission that may have been deemed illegal, then it would have been bad for them, and for the embattled Chancellor Valorum. So they stayed on the sidelines. They didn't give evidence to the Senate because again, that would be admitting they were interfering in matters they shouldn't be, and also partaking in illegal actions that circumvented the Senate. The Jedi weren't allowed to get involved in matters that were before the Senate unless asked to by the Senate.

    When Queen Amidala decides to go back to the Naboo, the Jedi now can openly get involved, but, not to fight a war, but to act as body guards for a head of state, which seems to me well within their rights. That is why only two go with her, there was no need to send more as then it would look suspicious. However, we know that even the bodyguard scenario was an excuse of sorts, because the council wanted to see if Amidala's return would draw out the dark warrior that Qui Gon believed to be a Sith.
     
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  15. Samuel Vimes

    Samuel Vimes Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    mikeximus and darth-sinister

    You are both using the same logic, doing something in secret = doing something illegal.
    While not a totally unreasonable assumption it is not proof. It is only proof that the Senate didn't know about the ambassadors. And if we always go with secret = illegal is then a secret entrance an illegal entrance? Is the Secret Service actually illegal?

    But lets' assume you are right and this was a violation and the senate has to ok these things.

    1) If so then Nute would know that no ok has been given to any ambassadors and he would refuse to see them and send them away as they are there illegaly. He doesn't do this, why? There is not even a mention in the film that them being there was in violation of any rules.

    2) Why doesn't Nute and/or Sidious use this against Valorum? Nute wants the tax gone and this could get it for him and Sidious wants Valorum gone and he now has an ideal opportunity. Esp since Padme was gone and without her he has no treaty and no means to remove Valorum and if the invasion is discovered the whole plan can fall apart.

    3) The Jedi were sent to force a settlement and remove the blockade. If that had worked the Senate would have noticed and asked how this came to be. Nute would also get questions from the rest of the TF why he did this. This WILL expose the Jedi being involved, there is no way around this. The senate WILL know that the Jedi were sent and by whom. And Valorum was apparently ok with this.
    So the secrecy angle might work to get the jedi on their way but the truth WILL come out sooner or later.

    4) When the Jedi report to Valorum he would know that the TF has declared war on the republic and invaded a republic world. They have also murdered servants of the republic and tried to murder two Jedi and they could be working with an old enemy of the republic, the sith. Given the seriousness if the situation it boggles the mind why the Jedi would not want to testify or Valorum not calling them.
    If the senate does nothing then the TF can keep attacking world after world, killing who knows how many.
    It would be like in the time of the Cold War, the soviet union invade Hawaii and the Governor of Hawaii make it to Washington. But the senate doesn't believe him/her. The President has other people he can call as witnesses but doing that would be a breach of procedure but not doing that will mean inaction from USA. Can you see him not doing anything possible to convince the senate?
    Or for that matter the senate refusing to believe their own country has been attacked?


    But the jedi KNOW what the TF has done, that the TF has declared war on the republic. And the TF has a big army while the republic has none. The republic is weak, unprotected and the TF could attack other worlds. Isn't that serious enough to admit a minor breach of procedure? Esp if inaction will mean the senate not doing anything about this.

    [/QUOTE]


    First, who would count if two, three or five Jedi went with her to Naboo? Second, they are going into a war zone, they will not only have to deal with this unknown warrior but also the full might of the TF army. If Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan are killed, the Jedi achieve nothing. And they said they will use ALL their resources to find out who Maul was. IF they think he will be on Naboo, then send a few extra jedi there to ensure capture.

    @DS
    Nope since none of this is IN the movie it is therefore irrelevant. I don't give credit to things NOT in the film because, and try to follow me, it wasn't IN the film.
    If you resorting to things not IN the film to explain this plot point it only proves that this did not come across clearly.


    Still not IN the film to still irrelevant as per above.


    If he was always spineless he wouldn't have sent the Jedi. You only highlight how inconsistent the character was written.


    You said that sending anymore than two Jedi would be a declaration of WAR! So are you withdrawing that statement? That three or four Jedi could go on a mission and it would not start a galactic war.

    Mace dialogue is canon and proves you wrong, case closed. The Jedi are NOT soldiers.

    So eyewitness accounts are not evidence? I think that would be news to most courts in the world.
    A lot of people have been charged, tried and sentenced to prison based on eyewitness testimony.

    There was a battle on Naboo, so what is your point?

    So you are only involved in a war if you are a general? Riiight.

    Yes the Jedi are clueless. Glad we can agree on something.

    He couldn't subdue Maul or he would have done so. Leaving Maul free and alive is dangerous so if he could take him down, he would have done. He couldn't so that shows that Maul is no pushover.
    And what did Qui-Gon think Padme would do on Naboo? Surrender or fight? He knows her well enough to suspect the latter.

    And I was talking about the JC. The JC knows that the TF have declared war on the republic, killed and murdered people and could be killing loads more. So the inaction of the JC despite them knowing all this is very odd.

    And back to circular logic. Ships could come, say a ship that have suffered damage and needs repairs and can't get to any other system. Those in the senate, not totally stupid, might wonder about what Padme said, "is it possible, have the TF declared war on the republic?" If Naboo have any friends in the senate they could decide to see for themselves if this was true. Plus Sidious knows that the Jedi knows the truth and they might do something.
    Ergo they have zero reason to remove the ships, esp since they know Padme is coming back. That they removed it is just signs of a contrived plot.

    Wrong, Sidious clearly says "Wipe them out. ALL of them!" No mention of Padme.
    And Nute was surprised when Padme turned up at the palace so he clearly expected her to be with her army, that was to be killed, every last one. That Nute brought up the treaty again could simple be because he has some use of her now but he was content with killing her before.

    And I have proved you wrong on that score so why you keep insisting this I don't know. He clearly had other options, they didn't use them because the plot requires Anakin to be there and find his way into a conveniently fueled and armed fighter and accidentally happen to turn it on etc. Again showing that the plot is contrived.

    Bye.
    The Guarding Dark
     
  16. mikeximus

    mikeximus Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 6, 2012
    C'mon now, are you being serious? No, just because something is a secret doesn't make it illegal, it's why it's a secret that makes it illegal. If the why is to subvert laws than it is illegal. It's not that hard to figure out.

    The narrative setup in TPM is that the Trade Federation pretty much controlled the Senate and Valorum through the bureaucrats. We have Palpatine telling Padme that Valorums' admin is mired in accusations of corruption. We see what happens when Valorum tries to do the right thing by Naboo, he is easily forced, by the Trade Federations bureaucrats to table Padme's plea for help and send it to a committee.



    He thinks they are regular ambassadors, not Jedi ambassadors. He doesn't figure it out til they are already on his ship, and once he does realize it he refuses to see them until he can talk to Sidious. Again you are missing the part that it is Jedi involvement without the sanction of the Senate that is the problem.


    They don't have to use it against him. The dominoes were already set for respectable Queen Amidala to call a vote of no confidence in Valorum further setting up a sympathy vote for Palpatine. If the Trade Fed calls for the vote of no confidence, then there is no symptahty vote for Palpatine, as the attention gets pulled away from Naboo and to how the Trade Fed was being treated illegally. Palpatine wanted that sympathy vote as it was imperative for his election to Chancellor.

    Or all sides are forced to keep their mouths shut about what transpired. Even if the truth does come out, at least he can say he did the right thing, instead of being stabled by the bureaucrats yet again. Even though we don't know much about Valorum, I got the feeling he was a good and noble man, but, was trapped withing a corrupt system.

    The TF did not declare war on the republic. It was essentially a border dispute. To which the Senate had not sanctioned the Jedi to interfere in. The Trade Federation was a member of the Republic as much and equal to Naboo. Your example of the Soviet Union is out of context. The Soviet Union and USA were two separate governments, made up of member states. The Republic was one government made up of individual member states, so your example would better be described as if New York State decided to invade Rhode Island, that doesn't mean New York State declared war on the whole of the USA. Furthermore the Republic was corrupt, so yes, planets were made to suffer at the hands of the Trade Fed, that is why Republic had become corrupt. Furthermore, the Trade Fed has been getting away with things, as Padme says, the trade federation has gone too far this time. Showing they are involved in a lot of other underhanded stuff.



    Again where do you get this idea that the TF declared war on the Republic? They are part of the republic just as much as naboo is.
     
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  17. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    I don't care if you do or don't give credence. It is a fact. Documented proof. The fact is that the Jedi have limits on what they can and cannot do. They weren't supposed to be involved in the Naboo affair, but Valorum was desperate to try and resolve the matter by bypassing the Senate procedure.

    Spineless in the Senate. Not on his own office.

    No. Sending more Jedi in this case, would be an act of war. With consent of the Senate, they can send more than two Jedi on missions but it doesn't happen all that often.

    Mace does not speak for ten thousand systems. He speaks only for the Jedi Order. The general public doesn't see them as anything other than soldiers. Hell, the war starts and they start taking military ranks.

    But there is no evidence. Every court trial is won and lost based on evidence than testimony as witness testimony can be challenged since people will often misremember, or outright lie about what happened. Otherwise you have a case of "He said, he said". That's why Lott Dod challenged Padme's claims because she had no proof and calling the Jedi in to testify would be pointless since they have no proof. Their word alone isn't enough and Dod would be able to object. Their ship was destroyed and any recording devices lost with it. And that's on top of the fact that they weren't given permission by the Senate to be there.

    Say I committed a grievous crime against someone you know and you witnessed it. You can testify against me, but that might not convict me because unless there is evidence that I did something, it just looks like two people hurling accusations without something to back those claims.

    The battle came later. Before then, no one knew what Padme was going to do other than return.

    In the case of the Jedi, yes. Which is why the Jedi were in charge of things during the Clone Wars. Palpatine gave them the authority to act as soldiers and thus we had General Yoda, General Kenobi, General Skywalker, General Windu, General Fisto and Commander Tano.

    He wasn't interested in subduing him. He tells Anakin to tell Obi-wan and Panaka to take off. He was stalling for time and when Obi-wan told Ric Oile to fly in close enough, Qui-gon chooses to jump aboard and leave, so that Padme could make it to Coruscant.

    He suspects that she has a plan, but he doesn't know until she tells them that she plans to fight and Qui-gon states that he cannot interfere, both to her and to Obi-wan.

    PANAKA: "The moment we land the Federation will arrest you, and force you to sign the treaty."

    QUI-GON: "I agree... I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish by this."

    AMIDALA: "I'm going to take back what's ours."

    PANAKA: "There are only twelve of us, Your Highness.... we have no army."

    QUI-GON: "I cannot fight a war for you, Your Highness, only protect you."


    QUI-GON: "The Gungans will not easily be swayed, and we cannot use our power to help her."
    The Council is not above the law. They must act with permission of the Senate. Otherwise, they'd be no better than the Sith. That's why they wait to go to Geonosis until Palpatine has been given Emergency Powers. He has already given them consent to go, once it has been passed.

    If a ship were to come, it'd be blasted out of the sky. The only reason they weren't was that Palpatine told them to let them return.

    Those in the Senate are relying on a committee and the election of a new Chancellor. Palpatine knows that Jedi won't act which is why he's not worried. Palpatine doesn't think she's going to fight and is even surprised when he finds out that is her plan.

    SIDIOUS: " ...she is more foolish than I thought."
     
  18. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    But the Jedi do launch a more comprehensive investigation into Padme's attackers? And they do so, despite being far busier in AOTC than TPM. Could they not have taken a more active role within their mandate in TPM?! Come to think of it, how can Obi Wan contact Coruscant in AOTC, yet Qui Gon cannot contact the Temple in TPM? Even in ROTS, Obi Wan uses an Emergency 913 signal?

    But they were official ambassadors of the Chancellor. The TF knew this. The Chancellor, merely did not tell them that they were Jedi, hoping to surprise them. So why can official ambassadors not be used as evidence? The fact they were Jedi would stand in their favor?

    But their numbers were stretched in AOTC. Yet in TPM, the only real crisis was the Naboo situation. Many Jedi were available on Coruscant to investigate this. Yet no action was taken? In AOTC, despite being overstretched, they order 2 Jedi to look into the Padme affair.

    But did the Council need Senate approval for everything? They have displayed on numerous occasions taking action without seeking the Senate's permission. I mean did they have Senate approval to dispatch Obi Wan and Anakin to protect Padme?

    I suppose so. Yet the Jedi became increasingly more assertive, no doubt in part owing to Palpatine seeking to control them too, could they not have acted earlier?

    But a military response to what, given that many in the Republic seemed content that nothing was happening and a committee had to be sent to see whether there was. And are the Jedi not the peacekeepers? Shouldn't they then be entitled to check in on things? I mean why do the Senate believe Obi Wan's word (a Jedi) that the Separatists are building up on Geonosis? Can the Jedi not act in TPM, given they themselves have borne witness to shady dealings on Naboo?

    But they were official ambassadors? So why could they not submit evidence?

    In addition, what if the Jedi happened to just be on Naboo by coincidence? They could have been visiting someone or just stopping for fuel and borne witness to the invasion?

    It seems like the Jedi could have acted somewhat more and still been acting within their legal mandate.[/quote]



    "But what is more important? Presenting the truth and avoiding a war and invasion of a planet? Or protecting a Chancellor? The events are also linked in any case.

    How is Valorum not authorised to send 2 Jedi? He sends 2 official ambassadors. He merely witholds the information that they are Jedi to surprise the TF. Also Jedi would be able to force a settlement."

    PRECISELY!!! He has the power to send ambassadors. He merely does not disclose that they are Jedi.

    So why does he not utilize his official ambassadors as evidence of what is truly happening on Naboo? And why can the Jedi not take a more investigative approach as they do when investigating the conspiracy against Padme in AOTC?
     
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  19. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    The Council was given permission to investigate the second assassination attempt, since it was determined that it wasn't disgruntled miners. They couldn't get too involved in a Senate dispute which is what happened in TPM without approval of the Senate. As the novelization notes, Valorum was playing a dangerous game by involving them in the first place. Qui-gon couldn't risk sending out a message that was being scanned for, even if it was encoded. Obi-wan wasn't scrambling a coded message to the Temple when he was on Geonosis and he was spotted anyway. On Kamino, Jango already knew that he was there and no one was looking for Obi-wan. In ROTS, Obi-wan was not using his comlink, but the one aboard Grievous's ship. Thus the Republic wouldn't be scanning for it. The Temple was guarded by Clonetroopers who had modified the signal to recall all Jedi.

    Official ambassadors were allowed, but not Jedi as this was an internal matter and one that the Jedi weren't supposed to be part of.

    Palpatine sent two Jedi who just came back from a mission in AOTC. In TPM, no Jedi was supposed to be on Naboo in the first place.

    On matters such as this, they had to. Protection and investigation into assassination attempts was within their mandate. Internal matters of the Senate was not really their purview.

    Different situations. The committee in TPM was the result of the Federation buying time for the invasion. Had they not been instructed to do so, action would have been taken with or without the Jedi's involvement by the Senate. The Jedi cannot act on their own in TPM for the reasons I've listed. In AOTC, no one is organizing a committee to validate these claims. They're all ******** themselves and when Jar Jar speaks up, Palpatine is able to take command of the Senate and make the decisions for them.
     
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  20. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 20, 2013
    I think what this really comes down to is what you can safely assume when watching a film and what a film you should tell you.

    Every political system has stupid arbitrary rules, and I think when it comes to the issue of the legality of sending the Jedi as ambassadors or why the Jedi don't testify in the Senate, it mostly comes down to that. Valorum is trying to do something sneaky that comes close to breaking the rules. He knows there's a coalition against him, so he has to be careful. He's not totally spineless, or he wouldn't have sent the Jedi in secret. At the same time, he's not willing to commit political suicide, so when he gets push back from the Senate, he caves in, hoping this will appease those against him when it actually empowers them.

    I assume Valorum sent the Jedi because Nute Gunray is weak-minded, and Qui-Gon could've simply used a Jedi mind trick on him, and that would be the end of the confrontation. There's also a reason to assume why Gunray doesn't use evidence that the Jedi were there as evidence against Valorum. First, Gunray orders the Jedi's ship blown up, killing its crew. That's probably not a legal thing to do. If Gunray uses that Jedi as evidence against Valorum, then that crime would probably come out too.

    More important, we have to remember that Gunray is stupid. He's in over his head. GL likes to mix it up when he it comes to his villains. Grievous is cowardly, Dooku is self-righteous and an true-believing ideologue, Maul is a scary single-minded assassin, and Gunray is stupid and easily manipulated. So, there's no reason to think that even if presenting evidence of Valorum's use of the Jedi would be helpful to Gunray, that he'd actually think to do it. And that's really not so hard to believe. Politicians do dumb things all the time. The Republicans just tried to shut down spending for the Department of Homeland Security because they wanted to force Obama to stop his executive order not to deport the children of illegal immigrants who have spent most of their childhoods in the US, but of course the problem was by cutting funding for Homeland Security, Homeland Security wouldn't have the funds to deport anybody. A few years ago, Mitch McConnell, trying to be clever, sponsored a controversial bill that came back to bite him in the butt and ultimately he had to end up filibustering it. Yes, he ended up blocking his own bill from getting passed.

    So, that's Gunray. He's an idiot. He doesn't know how to play political chess at all. He's just a pawn.

    Now, Palpatine, he's a different matter. Why wouldn't he expose the Jedi? Well, there a number of reasons that I think seem fairly reasonable to assume. He wants to stay on the good side of the Jedi because they have power and influence, and he wants them to trust him (as much as possible), until he turns on them. Also, if he reveals that the Jedi were involved, that might reveal that Gunray murdered the people in the Qui-Gon's ambassador ship. Also, Palpatine may simply not bring the Jedi into it because he knows that Valorum is so weak and his own position is so good that he doesn't need to do anything else to undermine Valorum. Bringing the Jedi's secret (i.e. illegal or political suspicious) involvement may have political repercussions down the line that Palpatine can't foresee (or maybe he does foresee through the Force), and so since he feels assured Valorum is toast, and he's a ringer to become the new Chancellor, he feels there's no need to do more. Also, we have to remember that Palpatine really doesn't care that much who wins in the conflict between the trade federation and the Naboo. He's just using the conflict to undermine Valorum and to gain power.

    So, from my point of view, I think for this political stuff, since you can mostly reasonably assume an explanation, especially since you don't know all the weird idiosyncrasies of Republic politics, that what appears on screen is fine. Providing more information would have just slow-down the movie more, and people complained about the politics as it was, though I enjoyed it.

    Now, when it comes to not sending more Jedi to deal with the Sith threat, I think what we get in the film is harder to accept. The film does try to address it, but it gives its answers rather obliquely, and the Jedi are rather nonchalant about it. Again, it may come down to the fact that Jedi have to follow proper protocol, but I think a full explanation should appear in the film, and that explanation should be direct and explicit. This isn't just any bad guy. It's the Sith who may be back in town. So, if the council really can't send more than two Jedi, I think there should be a scene where the council directly discusses that issue. Some of the Jedi should argue strongly -- "This is the Sith we're talking about. We have to put all our resources into this." (And it's not like ROTS where most Jedi are away; most of the Jedi just seem to be sitting around.) Then another should have argued back: "But we can't send any more Jedi because of rules X, Y, and Z!" They should've hashed it out to the point where it's clear why they can only send Qui-Gon and his padawan. I also think a scene like that would've helped TPM dramatically. This wouldn't be a boring scene that details the political minutiae of the Republic. Instead, it would be a dramatic confrontation that shows how the Jedi's hands are tied, it would emphasize just what a big threat the Sith are, and it would show why there is discontent within the order (For instance, Dooku, before he left the council, could've been 1 Jedi there who argues that the Jedi are being held back by the rules of a corrupt bureaucracy.)

    Anyway, this is my take on things.
     
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  21. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 16, 2005
    ^ About the only thing I don't entirely agree with...the last bit. I think the Council really doubted the Sith had returned, but didn't want to totally ignore it - so they sent Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, rather than a phalanx of Jedi. (They may also have thought TWO Jedi were up to any one nefarious Sith.)

    As for not testifying - that to ME is implied in the Senate would-be inaction - i.e. sending to Committee. In some books, off screen, the Jedi did testify but the evidence was not strong enough to indict the TF (i.e. some clever work kept Nute and co fighting the fight for decades).
     
  22. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    Palpatine has nothing to do with Obi-Wan attempting to arrest Jango. The Council orders him to do so. I feel like you didn't even watch the movie.
    Obi-Wan wasn't a Jedi yet. The only reasonable explanation it that they thought it was an impostor. Qui-Gon had dueled Maul at that point and deemed him to be "trained in the Jedi arts." He was an experienced Jedi Master they simply should have believed him. Big mistake on their part, and perhaps one of the reasons why they allowed Anakin to be trained.
     
  23. DarthTalonx

    DarthTalonx Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2014
    Pure brilli
    I have and nowhere is Padme assured that her testimony enough would be sufficient. Again you should take your own advice.

    This would actually suggest that her word is NOT enough and she would then logically suggest that the Jedi be called in as witnesses. IF the issue is that the senate won't act any way then it is not a question of them believing her, they just won't act period.


    Lets see, four Jedi to arrest Palpatine, over a hundred Jedi to Geonosis. Plenty of examples of two Jedi not being some unbreakable rule.
    You are attempting to make a general conclusion from VERY little evidence.
    At the start of TPM, Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent just to make a settlement, not to fight.
    Qui-Gon believed that this would not take long, so two Jedi is enough. Later they are sent into a war zone, both to protect Padme AND somehow identify Maul and find out who he is. That would call for a just a bit more people.


    You really are on a roll with this circular logic, you keep assuming your conclusions as a given.
    The Jedi are NOT soldiers per Mace's own words.

    Yes it was, it was a full planetary invasion.

    Nope not legal, Palpatine said that he would make it legal but again, he is the villain, he could be lying and he is just using the TF. If he had not assured them, they wouldn't dare to attack.
    And at the end of TPM, Nute was arrested and put on trial, which shows that it wasn't actually legal.
    He could avoid jail time because the courts were so corrupt, a point which AotC makes.


    So the word of two Jedi carry no weight? The ship that was blown up also don't matter?
    The Jedi have served the republic for many millennia, their word ought to matter.

    Nothing here that says they are not able to send more than two Jedi. And "widen the confrontation", does this mean that the TF could attack other planets? If so then even more reason to act quickly and stop them before more people die.




    How can he protect the queen if he is not allowed to intercede? If she goes to attack the TF's base and Qui-Gon is told to protect her, he would have to come along and he would have to fight the TF's forces. Sorry, any way you slice it, the Jedi ARE involved. He can't fight the whole TF army by himself but he and the Jedi are taking part in this.



    And IN the actual film Sidous only says this;
    "This will work to our advantage."


    [/QUOTE]


    Umm, as far as the jedi know, the last time the sith were around was 1000 years ago. Unless Maul is older than Yoda, he won't be in their archives. Mace said that would ALL their resources to find out the identity of Maul. Since the council believes that Maul will be on Naboo, it follows that they should send more Jedi to get him. But according to you, the Jedi will use hundreds of Jedi to look through the archives, which won't tell them anything about Maul and only two Jedi to where they think he will be.
    Yeah, the Jedi are really smart.

    The TF had a great deal more than 100 battledroids there. When faced with just two destroyer droids, the Jedi had to retreat. So Maul, who could fight Qui-Gon so well that Qui-Gon had to leave, plus an army of battle droids and who knows how many destroyer droids. Two Jedi would very likely be outmatched. So plenty of reason to send more Jedi. Unless they secretly hope that Qui-Gon will get himself killed and then they don't have to bother with any more.


    ???? Are you seriously arguing that the Jedi council don't belive Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan?
    That they doubt that the TF has tried to kill them, invaded Naboo?
    The senate didn't believe that the TF did this but are you saying that the council didn't either?
    If not, then the Council KNOWS that the TF have declared war on the republic, committed murder and attempted murder and they would know the danger the TF represents.

    Yeah the Jedi are collection of total morons along with much the rest of the galaxy. So again, in order for the plot to work, everyone except Palpatine has to be an idiot at one point or another. Glad we have settled that.


    The Sith order is over 1000 years old. Is your argument that the Senate and the Jedi order have always been this stupid and corrupt? If so then I wonder how they could have lasted this long before anyone near competent knocked them over.

    No it is not a logical deduction, it is once again you assuming your conclusions as a given.

    First, the blockade was known to the republic, removing it could get noticed and cause questions. So far better to pretend that the blockade was still going on and nothing had changed. The TF had set up the blockade to BE aggressive to the senate and force them to remove this tax.
    Second, if ships from the outside approached Naboo, with just one ship, they could not hope to keep them away and if that ship landed or spotted what was happening on the planet, word could get out and the TF don't want that. So another reason to keep the ships there.
    Third, Palpatine could have warned the TF that Padme was coming back and have ships ready to intercept her. So yet another reason to keep the blockade there.

    Not going to kill her? Qui-Gon said that they would kill her if she stayed, her ship got fired at and could easily have been blown to pieces and Sidious tells Nute to "Wipe them out, ALL of them."
    So they are totally willing to kill her.

    Firstly you argued that Anakin had nowhere else to be, I have shown this to be wrong.
    Secondly, I brought Anakin up as an example of the plot being contrived. Anakin needs to be there so he can accidentally hide in the ships, set if of by accident and fly up etc. Bringing a nine year old into a war zone is foolish and yet no one calls Qui-Gon on this. But the plot needs something to happen and so it does, regardless if it doesn't make sense.

    No you are again falling back on circular logic and assuming your conclusions.
    Palpatine suggests that the Jedi protect Padme, that's it. Nothing about giving them extra permissions or jurisdiction and nothing at all about giving the council leave to go after the killer.
    The Jedi have shown that they are perfectly capable to act without ok from the senate or orders from the chancellor.

    In closing and this got very long. To keep it shorter, until you prove your claims with actual scenes and dialogue that are IN the film, I have nothing more to add to this discussion.

    Bye.
    The Guarding Dark[/quote]

    Pure brilliance. All true. Couldn't put it better. It makes no sense why the Jedi were not brought forward to submit evidence. Also as to why the Council would not dispatch more Jedi is beyond belief. And I completely forgot about the captain and copilot of the Republic ship which was destroyed at the start of TPM. Is this not evidence enough?!!!

    I also agree with the Anakin part. There really was no need to take him into battle, and not even to Naboo. The Council had said they would discuss his fate at another time.

    More Jedi should have been sent to see to Padme's protection given Qui Gon's task was to unravel the mystery of the Sith. At the end of the day, Padme was abandoned and may well have perished if not for Anakin's ship somehow whirling through the deflector shields of the TF ship.
     
  24. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jun 28, 2001
    Palpatine gave the Jedi permission to find the assassin and bring them to justice. Anakin said to Obi-wan that investigation was implied in their mandate, but Obi-wan tells him that they will not do so until told otherwise. Obi-wan then tells Yoda and Mace, who says to bring Jango in for questioning. They want to know more about Kamino than about the assassination attempts.

    Because they weren't supposed to be there.

    They were not to intercede and the Council didn't believe Maul was a Sith.

    What evidence? The ship's remains would have been atomized after being jettisoned in space or removed to another location and hidden.

    Qui-gon had to take him as he was his ward and he wasn't going to stay behind on the ship.
     
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  25. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    No. Palpatine does not. The Council assigns Obi-Wan and Anakin to protect Padme under Palpatine's suggestion. He has nothing to do with the attempted arrest of Fett.