PT Why did the Jedi not present evidence at the Senate or take a more active role in TPM?

I'm talking about after Jango killed Zam. The Council doesn't just act on their own. The Chancellor has given them permission to find the assassin. Yoda and Mace telling Obi-wan to bring Jango in, was a result of gaining permission.

 

Not according to the film. They may have gotten permission, but it wasn't shown on-screen, and you know the rule of canon and on-screen events...

 

You're really going to use that as a defense?

 

Where's the evidence they got permission from Palpatine to go after Fett?

The only visible evidence in the movie or novelization that Palpatine had anything to do with Padme and protecting her are: 1. His suggestion that the Jedi, specifically Obi-Wan and Anakin, protect her. 2. Anakin asking Palpatine to issue an executive order, forcing Padme to take a leave of absence for her protection.

Nowhere did it show the Jedi asking or receiving permission from the Chancellor to go after Fett. At that time, I don't believe the Jedi were specifically under the Chancellor's control. Closer/around Revenge of the Sith, yes; but not at the time of Attack of the Clones.

 

It's not about being under Palpatine's control, but rather that the Jedi have certain parameters that they have to operate under. Which is the difference between Jedi Knights and the security forces conducting investigations and protecting political dignitaries. That's why Anakin said that offering mere protection was not a job for a Jedi, as security can handle that. There are actions that a Jedi can take on their own, but also actions that they have to be given permission to take charge of.

 

But your explanation requires people to be stupid and to me, that always bother me when people have to become idiots in order for the plot to work.
Second, a lot of people defending the films assume things that are not shown in any way what so ever.
NOWHERE is it said or implied that Valorum broke the law by sending the Jedi. People assume that as a given to explain the Jedi's absence. Which, as I've said before, is circular logic.

Two things,
1) About Valorum. You are correct that he isn't spineless. He sees the Senate unable to resolve the issue of the blockade and he takes personal imitative and sends two Jedi to force a settlement.
Good so far. But what can we deduce from this?
The sending of the Jedi WILL eventually become known. Both the TF and the Naboo knew that ambassadors had been sent, the TF just didn't know that they were Jedi. So the sending of ambassadors was not a secret. Had Valorum's plan worked and a settlement had been reached and the blockade removed. That would be noticed and the involvement of the Jedi and Valorum sending them would become public knowledge. Valorum knew this and sent the Jedi anyway. That tells us quite clearly that any violation this entailed, if any, was minor enough that Valorum did it any way.
BUT what is the situation when the Jedi come back? Instead of a mere trade blockade, WAR has now begun. The TF have attacked and invaded a Republic world. The same TF that have a big, battle hardened army while the Republic has not got any army.
In short, the situation is now much WORSE, before it was just a blockade, now the TF has in effect declared war on the Republic and attacked a Republic world.
The senate needs to act on this NOW, so for him to worry about a supposed breach of procedure in the face of galactic civil war is not reasonable. Esp when he was so decisive earlier and sent tow Jedi in order to resolve a matter that the senate couldn't deal with.

2) About the senate, the laws and rules. If the rules becomes TOO stupid or arbitrary then it can break my suspension of disbelief. Sadly that happened in the PT. The Republic seems to be set up so stupid and everyone in it, except Palpatine, are also so stupid become he needs to win.

But if the sending of the Jedi was SO illegal and would doom Valorum. And Nute would know that the Senate had NOT ok this, then he doesn't have to blow up any ships. He simply tells the Jedi to leave as their presence is illegal and a crime. Then he contacts his man in the senate and tells him to use Valorum's crime against him. Either to get him to remove the tax that the TF want gone or to smear Valorum and get rid of him. He did none of this, nor did he suggest it to Sidious nor did Sidous use it to remove Valorum. This tells me that what Valorum did was not illegal or if was, the breach was so minor that it didn't matter.

As I said above, Palpatine doesn't have to bring the accusations directly. He simply tells Nute to tell the Jedi to leave, not killing them. Then he uses either the TF guy in the senate or his many other patsies to speak the accusation. Valorum is gone and Palpatine get to be the new chancellor.
Simple.
Also, after Padme had fled, Palpatine could still do something like this. The TF could simply say that the Jedi ship left and since Qoi-Gon and co are not or Coruscant, they can't tell the senate that the TF tried to kill them. Valorum gone.

But to me, a lot of this came across as contrived writing in order for the plot to work.

Both Valorum and Padme have plenty of reason to call the Jedi as witnesses but neither do, nor do they even suggest it. Padme was even told that there was a chance that the senate would not act. At that point it would have fitted perfectly to have her suggest that the Jedi appear by her side.
IF Valorum's act of sending them was so illegal, then Palpatine could have told her that instead of saying some vague stuff about corruption. That Valorum can't call them Jedi as that could be used against him. THEN in the Senate, when Valorum suggest a committee, then Padme can get angry and simply say, "No need, ask the two Jedi that you sent to settle this." And this is what gets Valorum removed, not her issuing a vote of no confidence.

As for the senate, I already find it hard to swallow that they are told about war breaking out and they flat out refuse to believe it. It would be like if the Soviet Union had invaded Hawaii and the Governor of Hawaii spoke to the US senate and told them of the invasion and the senate refused to believe him.
In TPM, had the Jedi testified to the senate along with Padme, then that would have made the senate seem even more stupid and might have gone too far. So the Jedi don't testify in order for the plot to work.

In another thread, it was argued about who was taxing whom and I and others argued that it would actually make more sense plot wise that the TF were the ones who was taxing the trade routes. They had gotten this power in exchange for providing security along the outer trade routes. That explains why they have such a big army. It also explains why the TF controls so many systems in TPM. They have raised the taxes so much that many can't afford to pay it and give away some of their sovereignty for tax cuts. Naboo refused to pay the high tax and in response the TF blockade them.
That makes it a tricky matter. The TF have a legit claim and their actions, while a bit extreme, are still legal. It also becomes a hard nut for the senate to crack. They have give the TF this power but they are becoming aware that the TF is abusing it.

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I agree in part, to me it was more of this contrived writing. Had 5-10 Jedi gone back to Naboo, reasonable if you ask me, then Maul might have been captured instead and since the plot needs him to die and Qui-Gon to die, then only two Jedi go back. Another very contrived thing is why Anakin comes along. They are going into a warzone and Qui-Gon sees no problem with bringing along a small kid. Nor does anyone else for that matter.

The council are not sure about Maul being a Sith but they say that they will use ALL their resources to get to the bottom of this. So they did seem to take it pretty seriously. And given all the misgivings they had towards Qui-Gon, sending 2-3 other master along would make sense.
Plus the council knows that the TF has declared war on the Republic and launched an attack. AND they know that the senate have shown itself powerless to act on this matter.
All the more reason that they step in and act themselves before more planets fall to the TF.
But again the plot needs only two Jedi so only two go.

People have tried to argue that sending more than two Jedi would be a violation of rules etc. This makes no sense. Two Jedi went to Naboo on Valorum's orders, despite this being SOO illegal and the senate had not ok this. Then two Jedi go back to Naboo, now without ANY mandate at all.
Neither the senate nor Valorum had given any kind of consent to this. Yet they go.
So if they are fine with sending two Jedi, sending five or ten should not be any difference.
The Jedi go because they suspect that Maul will be there and they want to find out more about him. But they also help Padme and they have taken her side against the TF. And people argue that they are not involved, they are very, very much involved.

In closing, one of the problems I have with the PT is the sometimes contrived writing. That things happens because the plot needs it to. That characters do things just because the plot requires them to. The overall story is really good but is brought down in the execution and to me, it would not need that much rewriting to iron out a lot of these problems.

My two cents.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Thanks. This is so true!!

I can't see why there is a disparity in what the Jedi do before the Clone Wars. They could have sent more Jedi couldn't they?

I agree in part, to me it was more of this contrived writing. Had 5-10 Jedi gone back to Naboo, reasonable if you ask me, then Maul might have been captured instead and since the plot needs him to die and Qui-Gon to die, then only two Jedi go back. Another very contrived thing is why Anakin comes along. They are going into a warzone and Qui-Gon sees no problem with bringing along a small kid. Nor does anyone else for that matter.

The council are not sure about Maul being a Sith but they say that they will use ALL their resources to get to the bottom of this. So they did seem to take it pretty seriously. And given all the misgivings they had towards Qui-Gon, sending 2-3 other master along would make sense.
Plus the council knows that the TF has declared war on the Republic and launched an attack. AND they know that the senate have shown itself powerless to act on this matter.
All the more reason that they step in and act themselves before more planets fall to the TF.
But again the plot needs only two Jedi so only two go.

People have tried to argue that sending more than two Jedi would be a violation of rules etc. This makes no sense. Two Jedi went to Naboo on Valorum's orders, despite this being SOO illegal and the senate had not ok this. Then two Jedi go back to Naboo, now without ANY mandate at all.
Neither the senate nor Valorum had given any kind of consent to this. Yet they go.
So if they are fine with sending two Jedi, sending five or ten should not be any difference.
The Jedi go because they suspect that Maul will be there and they want to find out more about him. But they also help Padme and they have taken her side against the TF. And people argue that they are not involved, they are very, very much involved.

In closing, one of the problems I have with the PT is the sometimes contrived writing. That things happens because the plot needs it to. That characters do things just because the plot requires them to. The overall story is really good but is brought down in the execution and to me, it would not need that much rewriting to iron out a lot of these problems.

My two cents.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface[/quote]

Precisely and well said!! I also think that sending the Jedi at the start of TPM was legal and known. Even the TF and Naboo knew this. So as to why the word of Jedi could not be used as evidence is not clear. Given that their word is used as evidence in AOTC??!

I think more Jedi could have been sent to Naboo, more Jedi could have been assigned to protect Padme whilst Anakin and Obi Wan investigated Jango Fett. In addition, more Jedi could have pursued Jango with Obi Wan given Fett escaped him on Kamino.

There seems to be a disconnect between how Jedi can communicate on secured channels in AOTC and ROTS (using the Jedi Temple's own beacon rather than the holonet which might be susceptible to enemy interception), and the lack of this in TPM, where the Jedi don't use their own transmitters to contact the Temple for help.

 

The difference is that there was no official request from Naboo for the help of the Jedi.

The Jedi that were sent were in the capacity to protect a head of state, not to take sides and not fight a war for that head of state.

In order for the Council to send more Jedi in order to take sides in the war on Naboo, it would mean going through the Senate for permission, as the Jedi served the Senate not individual heads of state. We see what happens in the Senate, any motion to send the Jedi would have been pushed aside by the Trade Federation.

Sending only 2 Jedi was a POV issue of the Jedi, and not necessarily getting involved. From their POV they were protecting that head of state and not necessarily fighting her war for her.

However, when we get to AOTC, the Jedi seem to be allowed to investigate as part of their mandate. They don't need to run to the Senate or Chancellor every time.

When we get to the point of Geonosis, the important thing to remember is the Jedi do not act until after the Chancellor has been given emergency powers. Now the discretion to use the Jedi in battle is up to Palpatine and not the Senate anymore, as they have just given him emergency powers. Another important thing to note is the Jedi do not have seats at the Senate. They have to watch from the doorway of Naboo's Senate Seat.

So once Palpatine has emergency powers, Mace points out that "It is done then". In which then the Jedi decide which action they will take, which is just a formality becase there is no reason why Palpatine would say no, as he just used his emergency powers to create the grand Army of the Republic to counter the Separatists threats.

So in the end, things make sense

 

I guess, but there is no different in the Jedi mandate between TPM and AOTC (pre the emergency powers), so how can they investigate in the latter, but not the former? Especially given that there are more free Jedi in TPM given no Separatist crisis or unrest galaxy wide.

The Jedi appeared to be sent as official ambassadors of the Chancellor - known to the TF and the Naboo, so why can they not be witnesses. Being a Jedi would carry more weight. They were legal ambassadors.

 

What were they supposed to investigate in TPM? Was it ever in dispute that there was a Trade Blockade going on? Everyone and their brother seemed to know that there was a blockade going on (the opening crawl states that Congress of the Republic was endlessly debating the alarming chain of events). It seemed the blockade itself was purely legal, the problem being was the actual invasion. When Amidala brings it up to the Senate, that is when the Trade Federation gets it pushed into a sub-commitee to investigate it's validity. Something Amidala was not willing to wait for hence the call for a vote of no-confidence. So am not sure what exactly the Jedi were supposed to be investigating in TPM?

The blockade of Naboo was not an investigatory matter, but, a legal matter being discussed in the Senate, that is until the Trade Federation invaded, in which Amidala wanted an immediate resolution, not an investigation by a sub-committee.

In AOTC, there was an attempt on the life of a Senator, which seems to mean it falls within their mandate to investigate. Much like the FBI here in the USA, the FBI doesn't need permission from the President of the U.S.A, or Congress to investigate certain things, but the President and Congress can ask the FBI to investigate.

No one knew that they were Jedi. Only Valorum, and assuming the Jedi Council. The opening crawl states that Valorum secretly dispatched the Jedi Knights. The Trade Federation seems to be expecting the ambassadors when they arrive they don't act shocked when the pilot contacts the Trade Federation that the Ambassadors wished to land right away. Then Amidala contacts the Trade Federation telling them that they had word the Ambassadors had arrived, so everyone was expecting Ambassadors. However the problem is that the Trade Federation was not expecting them to be Jedi. When they find out they panic, stall the Jedi and contact Sidious as to what to do next.

They weren't witnesses because they were never called as such. They needed to be called as witnesses, they just don't show up and start speaking. Padme relied on Valorum to back her up in the Senate, to which she saw with her own eyes just how powerless he really was. The Trade federation was able to push her motion into a sub-committee, so it was too late for her to back track and bring the Jedi in. Hence again, why she called for a vote of no-confidence.

 

But being a Jedi wasn't an issue was it? It was secret that the ambassadors happened to be Jedi, no doubt to surprise the TF. But there was nothing illegal about that.

And the Jedi did not present evidence. In proceedings in the Senate, the committee stage is brought up based on lack of evidence and this being just the Queen accusing the TF of all this. The Jedi were witness to what happened. If not, Jedi themselves could be dispatched to check (being guardians of peace in the galaxy).

And in terms of the Naboo, what if they formally requested Jedi help in a motion in the Senate? Or Jedi arbitration?

 

slightly off topic, but fits (in a way) to the first question of the thread.

After seeing AOTC, ROTS...I find Sidious' line quite ironic "the chancellor should never have brought them into this" HA! it's the first thing he would've done

 

The legality of the Jedi being involved is an often debated issue among fans.

I fall in the realm that the Chancellor had to send the Jedi secretly because if he requested that they be sent openly, then the Trade federation would have set a motion in the Senate to block him. It seems it is within the power of the Chancellor to send ambassadors, but, it seems it was out of his powers to send Jedi as ambassadors.

It's the only reason, I can see, that the Jedi would have been sent secretly. He was already in trouble politically, so if it comes out after the fact that he sent the Jedi illegally, well at least he could console himself in the fact that he did the right thing. So I believe that Valorum was acting beneath the laws a little when he sent the Jedi, but did so with the best interest of doing the right thing because he wanted to avoid the bureaucrats and trade federation blocking him in the Senate.

Right, the Jedi did not present evidence because they weren't called to do so. Remember what I said earlier. The Jedi did not have a seat on the Senate. Thus why in AOTC they had to listen to the vote for emergency powers from the doorway of Naboo's Senate Pod.

So they are not required to be there at every Senate hearing, unless asked to be. They weren't asked. Amidala, in her naivety, thought Valorum was their biggest ally (as spoken in the movie). She thought that he would help her, so again in her naivety, she relied heavily on him, only to see him become powerless against the bureaucrats.

The problem was the damage was done, her motion was pushed off to a sub-committee, where as even if they sent Jedi to investigate, it would have taken time to do everything. Remember, one of the fundamental problems of the Senate was that nothing got done with any urgency. Everything got debated and dragged out. Padme was not willing to sit around and wait for some sub-committee to drag their feet, send Jedi, wait for a reply, then drag their feet some more:

Amidala wanted immediate action, not an investigation by a sub-committee. The whole premise that the Jedi could have lead an investigation is worthless because the Senate still drags things out. The Senate no longer works as it should.

If Amidala had asked for the Jedi to be witnesses, then maybe we would have had a different set of circumstances, or maybe the Trade Federation, with the help of the bureaucrats is able to find another way to circumvent the Senate into a sub-committee, again, the thing to remember is that the Senate doesn't work the way it should anymore. The bureaucrats control it!

 

Maybe I should have a go at this:

1) Whether Valorum was actually breaking the law doesn't really matter. He could have been 100% within his rights to send the two Jedi Knights and still want it kept secret. Why? First of all, if Gunray & Co. found out Jedi Knights were on board the red ship, they wouldn't have agreed to meet with them. They might have simply destroyed the ship and claimed it was an accident.

2) Qui-Gon Jinn on Obi-Wan Kenobi couldn't testify because they never got the chance. Here's the sequence when Padme's ship lands on Coruscant:

The group gets off and splits up. Anakin joins Padme's entourage while the two Jedi stay behind to talk to Valorum. Now what did they talk about? The weather? Or maybe what went down at Naboo.

Palpatine keeps needling Padme over the plight of the people of Naboo and the fact that Valorum is weak and feckless. He even tells her that the courts might be a better option.

At the Senate, Valorum inadvertently proves Palpatine right. Padme tells everyone that the Federation has occupied Naboo. The Federation decides to put the Big Lie into action. They deny everything. Before Padme can get another word in edgewise, Valorum has agreed to appoint a committee even though he knows Naboo was invaded and Gunray tried to kill the two Jedi emissaries he personally sent. So not only did Qui-Gonn NOT get to testify, but even if he did, the Federation was shameless enough to deny it.

Frustrated at Valorum's weakness, and desperate to save her people, Padme decides she's got nothing to lose and calls for a No Confidence vote, I assume on the grounds that anyone other than Valorum would be better. Oops!

 

The Jedi did not rule the Republic. And when they actually considered taking control of the Senate in "Revenge of the Sith", I can only wonder how long that would last before the senators or the Republic's citizens began complaining or making trouble for them.

I agree. This is why I have trouble with both Mace and Yoda's actions.

 

Though if the Jedi had succeeded in the coup and taken over (having deposed Palpatine), given they wielded the power of the Force and commanded the Grand Army, it is unlikely that anyone other than the CIS could challenge them. Only the Supreme Chancellor could really outrank them and only that office had the authority to issue orders to the clones. It would require a supermajority of Senators to pass a Senate bill to have the Jedi Order arrested otherwise.

Agreed. Could not Padme, as leader of Naboo, have simply presented Qui Gon and Obi Wan as witnesses?
Or could she simply have turned up and made a request for the Jedi to come to Naboo? I.e. a request for a Jedi presence on Naboo?

Could Padme not have immediately stated in the Senate she requested Jedi assistance be sent to Naboo? She is a member world of a Republic and has a right to request help?

 

You have to remember that even if Padme were to immediately ask the Senate to send the Jedi to Naboo that motion still has to get through the Senate, and the same result will happen. The Trade Federation, using its beuracrats will block the motion.

Just because she's a head of state doesn't give her enough power to circumvent the way the Senate worked. There is probably few if any actions that Padme could have taken legally that didn't go through the Senate. Palpatine suggests the courts, but, Padme quickly shuts that down as she says the courts take longer than the Senate.

Again, the key thing to remember is the Senate was broken. The beuracrats were in charge, not the Chancellor. Anything that Amidala does that involves the Senate will be deterred by the Trade Federation and its beuracrats. That is why she decides to do the one thing that she doesn't need the Senate or Republics permission to do, that being go back and fight a war to take her planet back.

 

The two Jedi should have testified that their crew of a Republic ship and themselves nearly were victims of a Trade Federation assassination attempt. They could also have testified that there was a droid army on Naboo occupying the planet. Was there no way for a star ship to have recorded the invasion on the ground on its own? The Jedi could have done this.

 

Wouldn't they have to be summoned to testify? And even if they had, I suspect the Senate would have procrastinated in doing something about the situation between Naboo and the Trade Federation. Who knows how many senators were in the back pockets of the Trade Federation? Politicians have a funny way of acting in a manner that we least suspect. That is why so many are suspected of being corrupt.

 

Exactly!!! This is exactly what I've been saying. The Jedi weren't called to testify and even if they have, the same scenario plays out where the Trade federation uses the beuracrats to stall everything. It's a no win situation for Amidala and she realizes it. Thus why she calls for a vote of no confidence so hopefully a stronger chancellor will be elected that can push through the beuracrats. However she also realizes this process will take time and that is something she doesn't have as her people are dying.

Once again, the important part to remember is the Senate is broken, anything that goes through the Senate gets bogged down in procedures.

 

When? After Valorum punted the issue to a committee?

 

Not everyone's motion for a No Confidence vote carries the same weight. If you had paid attention during the movie, you would know that Valorum is generally on Padme's side. She says as much when talking to Palpatine. He then tells the Queen that Valorum is bogged down with his own alleged scandals. So Valorum is already damaged goods with many opposed to him. Once Amidala sticks the knife in his ribs (a knife Palpatine gave her), not only are his enemies ready and willing to kick him out but now at least one friendly supporter wants him gone too -to say nothing of those sitting on the fence and waiting to go with the flow.

Think of it as a Star Wars version of the evening in 1974 when some of Nixon's supporters (like Goldwater) let it be known that they were not only NOT going to support him anymore, but will call for him to leave or be removed from office. This public break with Nixon forced him out, even though it was only a few senators. Everyone else watched and thought "Well, if Barry Goldwater is done with Nixon then I guess I should be done with him too".

Haile Selassie was allowed to address the League of Nations and beg for help because Fascist Italy had just invaded his country. The results? Pretty much the same as the Galactic Senate's reaction to Amidala's plea for help. The major difference being that Amidala had a backup plan and the aid of a couple of Jedi Knights and Haile Selassie didn't.

 

But in TPM, the Jedi order is not overstretched as they are said to be in AOTC. So surely they could have investigated? Why has their mandate changed between TPM and the start of AOTC?

Also the Chancellor in TPM sent the Jedi legally. They were official ambassadors as witnessed by the TF and the Naboo who were aware of them coming. The fact they were Jedi was a surprise, but nothing was illegal at least from what people said. They are also meant to be the Republic's peacekeepers aren't they?

As for investigating the Sith, could not the Jedi have done their own research on this? Maybe this happened off screen (when Anakin tells Windu, "Yes the one we've been looking for". ?

Great insight though btw!

 

I never said it was overtaxed. The Council could only send two to help force a settlement, which was the point at the start. They couldn't send more because it might cause problems. They could only send those who serve as protection, but no more than two.

The Jedi getting involved in matters of the Senate, is a tricky issue compared to issues that don't directly involve the Senate. The matter was between the Federation, which had a seat in the Senate and the Naboo system, which has long held a seat. The general rule of thumb is to keep the Jedi out unless both sides agree to bring them in at the outset. The Federation was tricked into allowing two Jedi into the matter. That could be used against them.

The Jedi did look for the missing Sith Lord. They started at Moraband and went out from there. They had no clue as to where he was, or if he did indeed exist. What Anakin says to Mace was due to the fact that Obi-wan was told that the other Sith Lord was Darth Sidious. So the Council knows about Sidious since Geonosis. They just didn't know what he looked like.