Saga Why did the Trade Federation trust the Emperor?

The point was that the Naboo invasion was to force the Republic to back off of the regulation of the Free Trade Zones and lift the taxation. It isn't that Padme would cause this to happen in the Senate, but that Nute could basically hold a world hostage in order to force the Senate to act in their favor. Naboo would become a world that was a protectorate of the Federation. Basically along the lines of what happened with the Cromwells during the 1650's England.

It was never really meant to last, because Palpatine just needed to buy enough time for himself to be elected in place of Valorum and then he could end the invasion himself. That's why it seems like a weak idea, because it was basically a grandstanding tactic to gain support.

That would come later. For now, Palpatine's plan was constructed and timed out right that he could avoid letting Nute and Dodd think of something like that. As soon as the law was on the books, that's when he approached them as Darth Sidious and told them that there was a better way.

Well, they know that he would benefit, but they're not interested in what he gets out of it. They probably did ask what was in it for him and he probably gave them a vague enough response to quell their concerns. Anyone who was thinking too hard would be dealt with. Hence why Dofine was basically told to, "Disappear scumbag!"

In your case, you'd be found floating out in space somewhere. As it is, they know about the Sith and as far they probably know, he is Darth Sidious and has no identity other than that.

Right, that was the real point. But for the Federation, they're convinced as is everyone else in the Separatist Council that they can gain sympathy if they're seen as victims of the big bad government who is trying to put them out of business. That's why Dooku said that he could get ten thousand systems to join them. There were plenty of people out there who disliked what the Republic had become and the demands that it had made.

Lando wasn't afraid like Nute was. He only gave in because he was thinking of his people, not his profits and power. And Lando's plan only succeeded because Luke and Artoo's arrival, with the latter discovering that the Falcon's hyperdrive was unplugged and that he could fix it in time. If not for Artoo being there, the Executor's tractor beam would have locked on to them and they'd be back in Vader's custody again and this time with Luke.

Remember who controls the Senate. Palpatine has enough people in his back pocket that he could prolong the debate long enough to force Emergency Powers to be granted. In fact, that was what was going on the whole time. Palpatine and Dooku had Jango launch the assassination attempt on Padme when they did, so that he could basically stall the issue until the Jedi found the army and found out about the pending attack on Coruscant.

Remember, this is a guy who can Force choke them into agreeing. You don't think that Vader didn't do that to Lando? Or that Palpatine didn't do it to Nute?

The Council would still dismiss it and the Security Forces would probably be bought off by Palpatine to begin with.

 

Thanks for explaining for those who did not know that. It would have been more interesting, perhaps, if Gunray was a bit more like Maroni. But his cowardice is funny at times.

 

Yeah, I basically thought the point of the invasion was blackmail. Thanks for clarifying.

Of course, that’s what the Emperor had in mind. As you said, it’s a grandstanding tactic on the Emperor’s part.

It really doesn’t sound better to me. Sounds more like I’m being set up.

Not being interested in his endgame was a huge mistake. If you know what he wants, then you’re in a better position to evaluate whether his goals align with yours and benefit you. It’s a nice way of knowing who to trust.

There’s no need to hide your face unless you don’t wanna be recognized. If you don’t wanna be recognized, you’re probably using an alias. Simple logic.

All they’ve succeeded in doing is make the Republic look like a bunch of incompetent, ineffective idiots for not being able to deal with such an obviously unacceptable situation. It doesn’t make the Trade Federation look like good guys, anymore than Neville Chamberlain made Hitler look like a good guy. It DOES succeed in creating sympathy for the plight of the Naboo, though. That the Trade guys couldn’t figure this out just makes them look incredibly stupid.

Well, R2 more than Luke. Not to mention that they probably lost time by having to go back and save Luke’s ass.

As for Lando not caring about profits, remember what Han Solo says to him after seeing how he’s changed: “Listen to you – you sound like a businessman, a responsible leader. Who’d have thought that, huh?” Lando agrees with assessment. You also have to remember that Lando’s EMPIRE arc is a slight variation on Han’s arc from the first film. Like Han, Lando eventually learns to care about other people rather than simply protecting his own business interests. He’s simply a bit more “respectable” than Han initially was.

The impression I got was more that the Emperor was an astute observer of the current political realities, situations, and circumstances, and was able to incorporate those into his plans. The idea that he was personally responsible for all the corruption and ineffectiveness of the Senate, rather than just someone taking advantage of a reality that would’ve existed if he’d never been born, makes him look like more of a Saturday morning cartoon villain, and actually diminishes one of the cleverer aspects of the prequels.

Honestly, that’s why I like the Emperor so much. He seems to be the only character in these prequel films who seems to be capable of capitalizing on opportunities that present themselves and recognizing what’s going on. He’s the only character who has a goal and forms a coherent and intelligent plan to achieve that goal. It even ends with his glorious victory. He’s the real hero of the prequel trilogy.

Lando certainly doesn’t act as though Vader used intimidation tactics in order to get him to agree to the deal. He seems positively glowing and proud of himself when he says, “I just made a deal that’ll keep the Empire out of here forever.” In fact, Lando begins to regret the deal once Vader does start using threats and intimidation tactics. That’s why he eventually just decides, “Screw this, I’m getting outta here!” Again, he realizes that Vader has no real intention of holding up his part of the bargain and that he’ll just end up getting screwed by continuing to go along with it. Under those circumstances, he decides that he has a better chance by just abandoning the deal altogether and cutting his losses. So I don’t think the deal was coercive, at least not initially.

And you have to remember that the Emperor is much sneakier, subtler and more manipulative than Vader is. Essentially, Vader “is a blunt instrument wielded by a Government Department. He is quiet, hard, ruthless, sardonic, fatalistic.” He goes around, intimidates people, smashes things up, and lets people know not to screw with the Empire. Yet even Vader never Force-choked Lando even with his constant complaining. “That was never a condition of our agreement, nor was giving Han to this bounty hunter!” If even Vader didn’t resort to such blatant coercion, I doubt the Emperor would. Again, the idea is that the Federation willingly made a deal with the Emperor, not that they were forced into it or somehow coerced. Hence why one of them says, “We should not have made this bargain.”

Wjy would the Council dismiss it? Again, it’s no different from a bomb threat. Even if you don’t believe that the perpetrator is some evil, all-powerful sorcerer, that doesn’t mean he’s not lethal. As I said, I’d take it to the Space FBI. You could even use the whole Sith thing to make him look psychotic and deranged. “The guy seriously thinks he’s a Sith Lord! I’m telling you he’s not stable!”

Real life example again. Charles Manson was clearly not a prophet. He was still dangerous, though. The fact that the authorities did not agree with Manson’s claim that he was a prophet didn’t mean they dismissed the clear threat that he posed.

 

Yeah, it really would’ve made more sense had the Viceroy done what Maroni did.

 

I think the point of the Trade Federation is that they're blinded by they're greed to point of selling their souls to the devil.

 

And Gunray never sees what Sidious has in store for him coming in ROTS.

 

I would have loved if in his final moments of life, Gunray found out that Sidious is Palpatine.

 

Again, greed is not an excuse for stupidity. Compare their actions to those of Sal Maroni in THE DARK KNIGHT. Maroni initially dismisses the Joker and just sorta plays along, almost as a lark, because “what the hell?” Look at the Mob meeting scene in that film. He clearly doesn’t take the Joker very seriously. If he somehow succeeds in killing Batman, great. Otherwise, he thinks they’ll just proceed as they would’ve had the Joker never been born. “He’s not the problem; he’s a nobody.” Clearly, he made a mistake by underestimating the Joker, but so did everyone else, including Batman. “One man or the entire Mob? He can wait.” Only when it’s too late does everyone truly understand the threat the Joker poses.

Eventually, after deciding that the Joker has gone too far and is endangering their operation, he decides to help Gordon take down the Joker. Now I don’t believe for a minute that Maroni did that for altruistic noble reasons. He was probably thinking, “If Gordon wants the Joker, he can have him. The Joker’s been ruining my entire operation, so I hope Gordon gets him before that psycho does any more damage.” That’s what the Trade guys should’ve done! Once it was clear that the Emperor posed too great a threat to their interests (which really should’ve been right away), they should’ve turned their backs on him.

 

Who ever said that the Trade Federation leaders aren't stupid?

 

That seems to be the crux of this whole argument. My initial point of was that I have a hard time believing that these idiots have enough higher brain function to tie their shoes, much less run a major multiplanetary corporation without running it into the ground within 3 days. Leaving aside the morality of their actions, it’s just bad business practice. It’s especially galling that these morons are the main antagonists of THE PHANTOM MENACE, and we’re supposed to believe that they could actually represent a significant threat to a fly buzzing around their office, let alone an entire planet.

 

Being skilled at things and having good judgement aren't the same thing at all. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sean_Parker

 

At the OP - they hadn't seen the ROTJ script.

Even Palpatine's most trusted servant becomes expendable when Palpatine sees no further use for them.

 

Four words: "too big to fail".

( ^ That's how the real world works, anyway. I suppose corporate types in SW are much more intelligent, or something. )

 

I'm sure after Palpatine gave them a demonstration of what he could do politically, their concerns were assuaged.

The goals of the Sith are well known, to hurt the Republic.

Not really. He could have a hideous scar or burns and thus is a bit self conscious.

Except that it did what the Sith said that it would. Ten thousand systems joined them and went to war with the Republic. Mission accomplished.

Lando does care about other people. He's worried about the entire population of Cloud City. That's why he said that he's got his own problems. He knew that if he tried to refuse Vader, the Dark Lord would start killing people in order to get him to go along with his plan. Lando just finally says, "**** it!"

"Star Wars" is as Saturday morning cartoon, or in this case, a movie serial. Targeted at children since at least 1975, when Lucas went from his obvious R rated first draft and changed it to a more acceptable PG film. The Clone Wars was the result of a thousand years of waiting and planning. He manipulated existing prejudices and political strife, but in order to eliminate the Jedi and gain control the legal way, he had to push everyone along. Lucas had maintained that since he wrote the intro for the ANH novelization, where it stated that Palpatine manipulated people into voting for him. And ROTJ made it clear that he could do this well.

PALPATINE: "Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design."

Lando is only proud because he's putting on an act for his friend, so that he doesn't get suspicious like Chewie was. Vader even makes it clear that he won't tolerate Lando's complaints.

My point about the choke is that if they even think of turning against him, he has a counter. That's why they're so scared of him. When he pointed out that he's amused that they're afraid of the Jedi more than him. You don't think that he hasn't demonstrated his power to them?

They didn't believe Qui-gon that the Sith were back and that he was clearly mistaken. They're arrogant in their belief that they would know if the Sith were back. And even if they did try to contact the Jedi, there's Dooku who would get in the way of that. He's already working for Palpatine.

 

How would that assuage their concerns that they were being set up? If anything, that should increase them.

They could just as easily hurt the Republic through terroristic hit and run tactics. No, obviously, this advances the Emperor’s self-interest in some way that’s not purely ideological.

Does this guy strike you as being insecure and self-conscious, or does he strike you as being someone with a hidden agenda? I’m going with hidden agenda.

Yes, it resulted in 10,000 systems saying, “Hey, we don’t wanna pay taxes, either!” But if the whole invasion thing turned out to be a success, then why does the Viceroy blame Natalie Portman for its FAILURE? He might not have two brain cells to rub together, but even he understands that the invasion was a spectacular failure.

Well, here’s what Lucas said in the audio commentary for EMPIRE:

He’s a businessman trying to avoid conflict and keep things under control. He finds out that he can’t avoid the conflict, and that he’s gonna get drawn into it one way or another, so eventually, he has to make a choice. Plus, if you believe in Lucas’s whole “poetry” thing, where “each stanza rhymes with the last”, then there’s something to be said of the whole thing, conceptually. The Trade Federation provides a contrast to Lando, in that they both made a deal with the devil, but whereas Lando made the right choice, and was rewarded for it, the Trade guys refused to extricate themselves from this downward spiral, until it eventually resulted in their deaths. I think Lucas botched the execution of it by making the Trade guys unbelievably stupid, but the concept has some merit to it. It might also be a testament to the abilities of people like Irvin Kershner and Lawrence Kasdan to polish Lucas’s ideas.

The fact that he took advantage of a situation and manipulated a pre-existing condition to his benefit doesn’t mean that everything was just hunky-dory before his arrival and that he made everything corrupt so that he could take over.

In fact, the idea of the prequels as being like a Saturday morning cartoon is their biggest problem. Either make a Saturday morning cartoon, where everything is clear and easily explained, without convoluted political plotting and scheming, OR make a political film aimed at a more intelligent, adult audience. You can’t make a Saturday morning cartoon into I, CLAUDIUS or GAME OF THRONES. You can have one or the other, but not both. Name me a single Disney animated film that includes the phrase “taxation of trade routes”. Again, let’s look at four of the most successful children’s films of the last 30 years, and look at how they make it so that children can actually understand it.

THE LITTLE MERMAID:

Ursula plans to Ariel as a hostage to convince King Triton to surrender his crown to her.

BEAUTY AND THE BEAST:

Gaston plans to lock up Belle’s father in a nuthouse unless she marries him. When that fails, he attempts to kill the Beast.

ALADDIN:

Jafar plans to get ahold of the lamp, and wish for the Genie to make him Sultan.

THE LION KING:

Scar plans to kill the current king and his heir, resulting in Scar becoming king.

As both George Lucas and I have said, he initially entered the deal to save his own skin and his own business interests, but once he saw how badly the deal was deteriorating, he decided to back out. As Lucas might say, Lando chose the compassionate side and was rewarded for it. The Trade guys chose the selfish side and were punished for it.

And if they stay with him, the situation will deteriorate and eventually result in their deaths. The fact that they don’t recognize this deterioration, and that they refuse to extricate themselves from this rapid downward spiral makes me question their cognitive abilities. Oh, the Emperor would try to find ways of punishing them for displeasing him, no doubt, but a Force choke isn’t really his style. He would go for something subtler and crueler.

They don’t have to believe he’s a Sith Lord! They don’t have to believe he’s a Sith Lord! They don’t have to believe he’s a Sith Lord! They don’t have to believe he’s a Sith Lord! They don’t have to believe he’s a Sith Lord! They don’t have to believe he’s a Sith Lord! THEY DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE HE’S A SITH LORD! THEY DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE HE’S A SITH LORD!

How many more times do I need to say that they don’t have to believe to believe that he’s a ****ing Sith Lord? THEY DON’T HAVE TO BELIEVE HE’S A ****ING SITH LORD!!!!!


They only need to believe that he’s dangerous. Maybe he’s a deluded cultist, or the Sith equivalent of a neo-Nazi. It doesn’t matter. It’s clear that this guy made a threat and that he intends to act on it. If a synagogue receives a bomb threat from a neo-Nazi, the FBI doesn’t have to believe that there’s a mass resurgence of National Socialism in order to investigate it. They just have to believe that this one person intends to follow through on their threat.

Now, assuming that Republic law is roughly the same as the law of the United States, I should point out that in all U.S. states, it is illegal to threaten to:

1) use a deadly weapon on another person
2) injure another’s person or property
3) injure another’s reputation

All they have to do is convince the authorities that the Emperor threatened to injure and/or kill them. They don’t have to convince the Republic that he’s a Sith Lord. It is only necessary to convince the Jedi that he threatened them. Nothing else matters.

Where does it say that? The impression I certainly got was that he only recruited Christopher Lee after the death of Darth Maul, as sort of a placeholder until he was ready to convert Anakin.

 

This wasn't just some wake-up in the morning and trust Darth Sidious, there was a repertoire of interactions between them before the events of TPM, to where the leaders of the trade federation knew that the Emperor could get things done and was a great strategist, plus you can tell most of them feared him.

 

Nute and the TF are executives, not military leaders. As I said in another thread I don't see the issues with taxes. Wars have been started over taxes. It is pretty easy to understand, governments use trade taxes to control trade all the time, not just to make money, trade taxes always increase costs and lowers demand, a double whammy. The TF doesn't like the Republic putting its foot down on their power, so they make a deal with the Sith to get the taxes lifted and keep the Republic out of its business. The TF clearly did not like the Republic's attempts to decrease its power and profits. By the time they started to express some regreats with the bargin with Sith, its too late. They already blew up a Republic ship, murdered its crew, invaded a planet, and kidnapped the Naboo and put them into camps. It is past the point of return, they have to go ahead with the Sith plan and get the treaty signed. The TF only shows regret when things go away, when the plan was going right again, such as the queen returning to Naboo, they were glad with the bargin again.

Also the Jedi council did assign Qui-Gon to find "this attacker" weither he be Sith or not. Greed can blinding people is pretty common, con men use their victim's greed against them all the time. Rockford when he pulled "long cons" also used the bad guy's greed against them so they ended up getting screwed over by their own greed. It is a pretty common theme.

 

But set up for what, exactly? They don't see any reason to believe that Darth Sidious was going to hang them out to dry. They only saw potential profits to be gained.

The Federation doesn't have the testicular fortitude to attempt anything on their own. That's why the rely on the Sith, because they're willing to get the job done and know how to do it. Ideological reasons do not concern them.

Are you going to argue with a guy who can choke you to death?

At the time, he thought of it as a failure. Then he found out from Dooku that the plan worked out as it has lead to support for their cause and that they can now go to war with the Republic. And it was more than just taxes, it was all the other things the Republic has done, or failed to do, in recent years. The Separatist Council were interested in greed, while everyone else had other issues with the Republic that the Confederacy was going to deal with as their own governmental body.

I didn't say that everything was hunky dory. As to the Saturday Morning concept, the story was always about taxation going right back to the first two drafts of ANH and the corruption of the government. Lucas cut it down to the bare minimum of what he needed.

The point is, that he has ways of keeping them in line. And they buy into it because they are blinded by greed. They were never going to be like Lando, who was designed from day one to be a good guy. Nute was designed to be the end result of what happens when greed overrides compassion. It's like gold fever where he keeps digging and digging until he has nothing left. And with the war, Nute believes that everything is going according to Sidious's plan.

The Jedi have to believe it in order to take the threat seriously they won't because the Sith are dead and they cannot intervene until told to by the Senate. All other threats would be dealt with by Republic security and they in turn wouldn't take the threat seriously.

"The Lost One". It is revealed that Dooku was already working for the Sith before the Naboo invasion, as he was the one who killed Sifo-Dyas. Dooku was recruited to do tasks the either Sith Lord couldn't do yet. When Maul was believed killed, Dooku was made a full Sith and took over as the Apprentice. Then he erased Kamino from the Archives, before formally leaving the Jedi Order.

 

The TF and CIS wanted free trade, free of government interference. The trade taxes shows the Republic was trying to control trade and reign in the mega corps which the mega corps didn't like. The TF and other mega corps had grown too powerful and why the Republic placed taxes to reign them back in. The irony is the CIS helped Palps, the guy who would nationalize all trade in the OT.

 

as Qui-Gon said, the trade federation were cowards. they probably were scared the Emperor would've tortured or killed them had they not complied. They never seemed to trust him at all.

 

It isn't really explained in the film because the specifics of the politics aren't really that important. Ironically, Lucas didn't want to bog down the narrative too much with superfluous political babble.

All you have to know is that there's a dispute over the taxation of trade routes, the greedy Trade Federation is mad about it because it's somehow restricting their ability to accumulate wealth, and they've decided to try to force a resolution to the matter in their favor by using their trade monopoly to cause a humanitarian crisis on Naboo.

As Nute Gunray says, the blockade alone is perfectly legal, so they're not in any danger of getting in any official trouble over it. I'd imagine it was the Jedi ambassadors' job to convince the Neimoidians that even though they wouldn't suffer any legal consequences in the short-term, they would no doubt suffer severe political consequences in the long-term. The Jedi would then offer to use their power and influence to shield the Trade Federation from retaliation from the Senate for their actions, provided the Trade Federation immediately dispersed their blockade and allowed all normal shipping to resume to Naboo.

Like Lucas says, the Jedi are kind of like the Mafia. They can be very persuasive once they get you alone in a room with them. That's why Sidious is so adamant that that not be allowed to happen. He knows just as well as Qui-Gon that the Neimoidians are weak-willed cowards who will fold in the face of the Jedi ambassadors' cleverly manipulative combination of threats and promises.

 

The way I see it, the Nemoidians were afraid of the Jedi in TPM, so I bet they were very afraid of the Sith.