Lit Why did Vader missed these chances to eliminate the Emperor?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BedlamSpirit, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    We have been shown that Anakin over and over again wanted to take out the Emperor, if so then it begs the question, why didn´t Vader used some chances he had to accomplish this?

    1) The exploding throne

    Eearly in the Galactic Empire the Heinsnake Cult planted a bomb in Palpatine's throne, he had not detected the bomb, he was going to end up killed by the bomb if Vader did not intervene. Even if he survived it would had been the perfect chance to take on the Emperor, a Palpatine severily damaged by the bomb would stand no chance to Vader. The issue is, Vader actually SAVED Palpatine, why? I mean he could had done away with him by doing nothing at all and become Emperor himself.

    2) Starkiller

    Pretty much we were told Vader only took Galen Marek on orders from Palpatine and he never planned to defeat the Emperor with him, why? It was a good plan actually, even if the Emperor planned it for something else Vader could had twisted it to his advantadge, but no, he actually was a loyal dog the whole ordeal. Granted perhaps when the Emperor came to them the first time Galen was still too weak to take on him. But at the end Galen was strong enough, when he came to the Death Star when Galen said "You will never be free without me" Vader just agreed and teamed up to fight the Emperor? There is no way he would had been able to fight Vader and Marek at the same time.

    Well so that's it for now, Vader actually had 2 good chances to defeat the Emperor, one of them with just required him to do nothing, and he didn't took them. Why? I never have found any explanation for this.
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  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    It's possible that Vader still felt he had something left to learn from Palpatine- only when he's learned everything he thinks he can, will he try and kill the Emperor.
  3. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    star 9
    Moving to Literature; EU really isn't a topic here.
  4. Revanfan1 Chosen One

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    Jun 3, 2013
    star 5
    Pretty much this. Vader wanted to make sure the Emperor had taught him everything he could before he betrayed him.
  5. Darth_Panicius Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2013
    star 2
    Also the aspect of pride.

    Vader wanted to be the most powerful person in the galaxy. If he'd attacked a severely injured Emperor, or not intervened to prevent his death at someone else's hands, he would never have known if he was truly the strongest/most powerful.
  6. VanishingReality Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2013
    star 3
    Because it's crueler to have Darth Sidious live without his favorite spinny chair. Seriously, how could they?!

    (My headcanon is that every time Sidious' life is in 'danger' he's obviously faking/acting and Vader knows it. If he doesn't at least make the attempt to rescue the emperor, he'd get electrocuted. I'm aware this is holding the Sith Master in very high regard, but the only two examples I can think of where the emperor was 'at risk' were the chair in 9th assassin and the disease in ghost prison.)
    Didn't want to get lightning. And didn't have that much faith in Starkiller's ability as he did Luke's, didn't think Galen was strong enough. The "You don't know the power of the Dark Side" thing, he thought the emperor could take their combined strength.
    Last edited by VanishingReality, Sep 20, 2013
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  7. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    Well when Palpatine was pushed by Vader he did looked off guard and scared, almost like if he thought Vader had betrayed him.

    I know Sidious is strong, but strong enough to take on Marek AND Vader? Obviously not, Vader is 80% the Emperor's power, I am sure Galen could easily provide for the missing gap.

    Vader knew perfectly he was not the most powerful person in the galaxy, neither could he ever be. After Mustafar he lost his potential to surpass the Emperor. Though, this makes me wonder..... why didn't Vader learn trasnfer essence and moved himself to a cloned body? Palpatine wanted the perfect apprentice, right? Why not teach him the technique.

    In ROTS Palpatine knew Anakin would get more powerful than him and most likely kill him, he was actually very happy with that. I never really understood why suddenly he was so bent in keeping Vader weaker than him or not help him regain his full potential, something he could had done.

    Perhaps by them he had mistreated and abused Vader too much, to be able to have whatever planned relationship he had planned for a 100% Anakin, it seems after the Mustafar incident Palpatine went from a second father and transformed their relationship in master-slave. Perhaps he had other relationship or type of mentoring planned for a 100% Anakin, this is the only reason I can think about why Palpatine did not helped Vader to regain his 100%, by the time he learned transfer essence, most likely his relationship with Vader was too strained.
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Going by Darksaber, Palpatine didn't really master Transfer Essence until after A New Hope- using Bevel Lemelisk as his test subject to see if the technique worked or not.

    And Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader has a hint that Palpatine is willing to take risks with his own safety to maximise Anakin's power:

    The idea of a Sith order was a corruption of the intent of the ancient Dark Lords. Fortunately, Darth Bane had understood that, and had insisted that only in rare instances should there exist more than two lords, Master and apprentice, at any given time.

    But two were necessary for the perpetuation of the Sith order.

    And so it fell to Sidious to complete Vader's convalescence.
    ...
    Fundamental to Vader's growth was the desire to overthrow his Master.

    Had Vader killed Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he might gave attempted to kill Sidious, as well. In fact, Sidious would have been surprised if Anakin hadn't made an attempt. Now, however, incapable of so much as breathing on his own, Vader could not rise to the challenge, and Sidious understood that he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair, and reawaken the incredible power within him.

    Even at Sidious's own peril...
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 20, 2013
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  9. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    I think another practical aspect to this is that not all the EU writers were on the same page, especially early on. I don't remember the exploding chair scenario (sounds kind of silly to say it like that), but I know that in the old Marvel comics days, there was a time when Vader saved Palpatine's life. I simply think GL didn't think as much about continuity back then. He never thought that SW would get so big and that people 30 years later would be dissecting it and that we'd have a place like the Internet where tons of people could dissect it together and come to consensus opinions about what's wrong with it. He was off working on sequels and creating a film, special effects, sound, CG, videogame company, and he pretty much let Marvel do their own thing.

    I think with the Galen Marek thing it's a little different and everybody was more on the same page. The thing is that in that situation Vader's suit would make him especially vulnerable to Palpatine, regardless if he were 80% or 10% of Palpatine's power. All Palpatine has to do is blast him once and that's the end of his life-support system. (I know Marek blasts him, but I'm going by what the film's establish. Also I think Marek used a different type of lightning, so maybe he couldn't fry Vader's iron lung so easily or maybe his lightning just wasn't powerful enough.) So, Vader would've been placing himself in a situation where he's certain to be killed just to let Marek take over, and Vader's not going to go for that. He wants the top spot for himself. Plus, after Palpatine fries Vader, Vader' would quickly be out of commission, and then Palpatine only has Marek to deal with, and Palpatine will win that one.
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  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Based on Plagueis' power to "cheat death," which was working to corporeally restore his injuries, it's likely that Vader could have likewise used the power to restore himself (indeed, he temporarily does in Shadows of the Empire). But it's something he would need to rediscover with Sidious, who would have some knowledge of it based on his brief work with Plagueis. Without him, Vader would be fumbling around blindly. Based on Shadows of the Empire, it seems Vader had figured it out to a degree where he no longer needed Sidious, and thus was ready to kick him to the curb. I think that explains instances of Vader saving Sidious' bacon before the OT, but the biggest instance in which Vader saved Sidious which never made sense to me, and went against his stated goal of wanting Luke to overthrow the Emperor, is this:

    [IMG]
    [IMG]
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Uh...

    It's pretty obvious why.

    Vader is Palpatine's slave.

    He hates his master but fears him and needs him. He's plotting against Palpatine but is emotionally and mentally crippled so that Starkiller being found out by the Emperor means Vader immediately turns against his apprentice because he's a coward. Not, obviously, a coward about dying in battle but a coward about losing against Palpatine since if he fails to kill the Emperor he'll lose his only purpose in life.

    i.e. serving the Empire.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 20, 2013
  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    "Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and we can rule the galaxy as father and son."
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  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    "He is your master now."
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  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Vader is whipped. And if folks want to complain about Vader being ruined, Return of the Jedi started that, not the prequels. The Empire Strikes Back is all about Vader subtly moving against Sidious behind his back, and then when told about Luke playing dumb even though that's been his game all along, then telling Sidious exactly how he's going to overthrow him but making it sound like it's for his benefit.
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  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
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    He is. While the Prequels went overboard, Lucas had a fairly good balance in ROTJ.

    Vader is formidable.

    However, he is still broken by the Emperor.
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  16. Quinnocent-Till-Sith Force Ghost

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    Jul 21, 2004
    star 3
    The Emperor is all he has left, I think.

    I like to believe that one of the reasons Vader doesn't just kill himself is that he'd have to face up to Padmé, Qui-Gon, Kenobi, Windu, his mother and a lot of children. Including his own as far he knows.
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  17. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    *insert Evasive Action webstrip here*

    That's why.
  18. MercenaryAce Force Ghost

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    Aug 10, 2005
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    I also get the impression that as a very military minded man, Vader does not want have to deal with any of the political aspects of taking over an Empire.
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  19. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    But yes, if the Sith were always trying to kill their masters sincerely, the system wouldn't work.
  20. Mechalich Force Ghost

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    Feb 2, 2010
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    I think it's not exactly that Palpatine has made Vader his slave, but that the Empire, combined with his injuries, have indeed broken him - with the important caveat that discovering he has surviving offspring is the absolutely critical catalyst that gives Vader something to live for again.

    There are certainly opportunities during the Dark Times where Vader might have been able to kill Palpatine and get away with it (defining get away with it as 'being in a position to survive and triumph in the power struggle that would inevitably result afterwards'), but he doesn't really have any motive to do so. The material benefits of ruling Palpatine's Empire are minor compared to the position he possesses as Palpatine's right hand, and come with vastly increased responsibilities.

    Most importantly: Emperor Vader is still trapped in the suit.

    So long as he's trapped in the suit Vader has nothing, his life is awful and it's going to stay that way. He hates everything and there's no satisfaction anywhere. Becoming Emperor gains him nothing.

    When he discovers Luke exists, and that Luke is his son, this calculus changes - because the Anakin Skywalker portion of Vader remains has enough paternal impulse that he can live vicariously through Luke. Taking an action that benefits a hypothetical Sith Apprentice Luke Skywalker is something Vader can live for, and is enough to break him free of the inertia of serving Palpatine.
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  21. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    Vader was not completely broken by Palpatine, as far as I remember after Palpatine flat out told Starkiller to kill Vader, Vader realized the deep **** he was in and that he had to defeat the Emperor.
  22. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

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    Aug 12, 2013
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    Um, I'm not sure which version you're familiar with, but, I don't recall anything like that happening in the Force Unleashed, first or second.
  23. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    TFU 1 at the end when Starkiller defeats Vader Palpatine asks him to kill him to replace him, TFU 2 is entirely on Vader cloning him to be able to defeat Palpatine.
  24. Cynical_Ben Force Ghost

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    Aug 12, 2013
    star 4
    No, I'm playing through TFU again, and I just reached the ending, the aggression of the situation is entirely on Starkiller. He attacks the Emperor (or Vader for the bad ending) and Vader doesn't do anything but what the Emperor say ("Deal with the boy") Palpatine does try to egg Starkiller on, but there's no indication that Vader panics, or thinks he has to defeat the Emperor, or anything. All Vader cares about at this point is to kill Starkiller, he doesn't care about supplanting Palpatine. And everything before this point was just a ruse, Vader lied through his breath mask about wanting to supplant Palpatine, he says so right to Starkiller's face. Again, I'm not sure where you get your facts, but they aren't from the TFU I'm familiar with.
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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