Lit Why did Vader missed these chances to eliminate the Emperor?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BedlamSpirit, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    The fact Vader never tries to take the Emperor out when he has the chance is a little annoying, but I justify it with 2 factors:

    1. The Emperor is quite simply superior to Vader and he knows it.
    2. Vader's somewhat loyal to him for a time, shortly after his defeat on Mustafar, as he feels some kinship with him for their previous "friendship" as Jedi Knight and Chancellor, and due to both being physically scarred.

    Now, Vader's loyalty to the Emperor slowly fades with time, as he becomes more comfortable in his shell, experiences the return of his lust for power, and Palpatine continues to undermine him with numerous tests. Honestly, as far as Vader knows whenever Palpatine appears to be weak, it could just be another test. Then there's the issue that Palpatine's not happy with Vader as an Apprentice, and is constantly seeking someone stronger in the latter half of their partnership. Instances like the one on the Death Star with Galen, where Palpatine actively urges Galen to kill Vader (Vader probably had a flashback to the Invisible Hand where Palpatine urged him to kill Dooku) shows Vader just how expendable he is, and that he's basically living on borrowed time. He therefore has make a plan to kill Palpatine at some point, or risk being killed himself.

    There's also the fact that in the early days, Palpatine still believed Vader could surpass him, and wasn't trying to replace him. So there wasn't as much friction between the two. But you know, familiarity breeds contempt.
    This too. Vader quite simply fears Palpatine on some level.
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  2. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    It's all Palpatine's fault! He's jealous! He's holding me back!
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  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    More significantly, I think Darth Vader wants to be able to destroy Palpatine when he's become more powerful than him and victory is guaranteed. The problem is Darth Vader is never quite able to eliminate that final bit of the Light Side inside him which would give him the power to destroy the Emperor. Palpatine, unfortunately, has eliminated that final spark of goodness inside him.

    My theory on Starkiller and Vader

    Vader might have intended to use Starkiller to fight the Emperor but after the first betrayal, he's pretty much of the mind Starkiller has lost his usefulness and the whole Rebellion plot is just getting some use of the 19 odd years he's wasted training him. I also think Starkiller made himself look stupid and weak to Vader by letting the Emperor's spies follow him back.

    Then Starkiller beats the crap out of him on the Death Star and illustrates Starkiller isn't as weak or stupid as Vader thought he was. He's not a gullible toady either but fully aware of the Dark Lord's potential treachery. Weirdly, I suspect Starkiller's rebellion and hatred for his master impressed Vader. So Vader revived Starkiller/cloned him repeatedly to see if he could build an army of Force-Users to take out the Emperor.

    It gets more complicated as Starkiller displays severe emotional unbalance and obsessive devotion to Juno--which distracts Vader from getting him back as an ally by reminding the Dark Lord of his own past and mental health issues.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 21, 2013
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  4. Jedifirefly5 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2012
    star 2
    It's really simple. Anakin was a different person in SW. The character got painted into a corner after ROTJ. Vader never got anything whatsoever out of being Vader. he got jerked around a lot by a liar. He really should have walked but he surely suffered twice the fall that Dooku talked about with his pride, his sails were completely deflated. he lost faith in his own abilities and hope. He had lots of mental issues that made him easy to control, and at the end of the day, daddy issues. Clung to the only consistent protector in his life that was always there to take care of him. Even though to Palpatine he was just a tool, at least that's what he said. But I think Palps had a soft spot for him too which is a Sith no no. Basically a sick, codependent relationship.
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  5. Drawler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2011
    Palpatine had spent his entire life integrating himself into the halls of power in the Republic, building political relationships and support among the public. He was elected Chancellor by the Senate and became the face of the Republic throughout the Clone Wars, and then became the face of the Empire. He was so integral to the Empire that after he died it shattered and different factions started warring against each other.

    Vader on the other hand just showed up completely out of nowhere as far as anyone in the Empire knew, just some enforcer for the Emporer with a lightsaber, creepy armor, and some respiratory problems. If Palpatine were to be slain suddenly by himself or his enemies Vader would have no claim to the Imperial Throne and he knows it. But serving under Palpatine gives him the chance to build those relationships, make a name for himself, and learn more of the dark side and perhaps one day learn how to overcome the wounds he suffered on Mustafar.
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  6. johnthejedi24 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 2004
    star 3
    Didn't Dark Lord hint that Vader didn't really need such a cumbersome and akward suit and could have survived with other prosthetics and cloned organs/limbs? That the suit was basically just another tool of Palpatines to test Vader and if necessary encumber him?
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  7. LelalMekha Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2012
    star 4
    Although Vader would hate to admit it, Palpatine has been the closest thing to a "cool dad" he ever knew, while Obi-Wan had been the decisively uncool one. Vader is no fool, though. He knows that he is but a tool to Palpatine, but he'd rather be a powerful tool than an weaker free man.
  8. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I think it boils down to the following bullet points:

    * Vader's confidence is shattered: The whole reason he hunts Jedi post-Dark Lord is because he needs to eradicate the painful memories of his past as well as rebuild his self-confidence. It's only by "The Force Unleashed" Vader thinks Jedi-killing is now beneath him.

    * Vader knows any weakness Palpatine displays is probably a trick: We saw that in Revenge of the Sith and Anakin had a front row seat.

    * Vader is trying to learn all of Palpatine's powers before he kills him: He claims his power has increased in "A New Hope" and he's no longer a learner. It's surprising we've never had Vader mention "Transfer Essence" as you'd think he'd be all over learning that.

    * Vader is consolidating his position in the Empire: He wants to rule the galaxy after the Emperor is dead and it's not until ESB he's the Empire's Executor and Supreme Military Commander.

    * Vader would lose under normal circumstances: An incredibly frustrating truth is that while Vader's power grows exponentially, so does Sidious' own.

    * Vader wants a secret weapon for his attack: Starkiller is too weak, in Vader's opinion, to defeat Palpatine. He underestimated him, as we later found out. All of his other apprentices (Lumiya, Flint, Hethrir) aren't great shakes either. The Bota thing backfired badly. Likewise, the Farseeing Head didn't reveal anything cool either. The Kaibur Crystal wouldn't have helped either but we can retroactively assume that was another attempt at Vader destroying Palpatine. We can also assume the clone army was going to be Vader's weapon to overthrow Palpatine but Starkiller destroyed that too.

    * Slave Mentality: It's entirely possible some part of Vader wants to be told what to do as without Palpatine he's going to have no one reassuring him this is all for the best, even if they both know it's a bunch of bantha poodoo.

    Vader as Sidious' slave gives him an excuse this wasn't his fault.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 23, 2013
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  9. Kenneth Morgan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 27, 1999
    star 4
    One theory on this was presented in James Kahn's ROTJ novelization: that Palpatine was right in that it would take both of them to turn Luke to the Dark Side. Also, Vader would need Palpatine's help in properly training Luke on how to use the Dark Side (and, when not to use it), along with indoctrinating him enough to prevent him from going back to his friends. Then, when Luke was fully trained and ready, they both kill Palpatine and rule the Empire together.

    I tend to prefer this one, as it gives Vader a bit more credit then the whole, "He's all I have left" idea.
  10. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    So, do you think guys that Palpatine did intended to teach Vader Transfer Essence? Or perhaps by that time Palpatine (now having discovered immortality) did not thought so nicely about having someone who could surpass him?
  11. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I think Palpatine would dangle it in front of Vader like a carrot but if Vader ever did escape his tomb, he'd go after Palpatine immediately.
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  12. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Seemed to me Vader was more interested in restoring his own body with midi-chlorian manipulation. His heightened count would presumably aid in doing this.
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  13. Ulicus Lit'ari

    Manager
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    Jul 24, 2005
    star 6
    Quite. I'm pretty sure the parallels in Darth Plagueis between Vader's SotE healing and Plagueis' midi-manipulation were intentional on Luceno's part.
  14. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    ^I'm honestly surprised Vader never pursued that technique in regards to healing himself, but I doubt Palpatine would've ever taught it to him had he himself mastered it. In terms of Essence Transfer, perhaps had Palpatine mastered it earlier he would've taught it to Vader, but certainly not later once his opinion of him had diminished so much.
  15. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Vader did in Shadows of the Empire.
  16. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4

    No he didn't. He attempted to heal his burnt out lungs, but never actively sought the ability to manipulate the midicholrians, and the many powers that stemmed from it. What he did in SotE seemed to be a limited form of Force Healing, which could only work as long as he held onto his anger and rage, strictly dark side emotions. As soon as he felt the slightest bit of joy the ability was gone.
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  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    That's because midi-chlorians didn't exist in 1996. See: Ulicus.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 24, 2013
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  18. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    I did, and yes there were parallels. Doesn't make it the same thing.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    In Dark Lord, the Rise of Darth Vader- Palpatine does seem to be at least thinking about making Vader immortal:

    p140:
    Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords had known the secret, but it had been lost or, rather, misplaced. Now that the galaxy was his to rule, there was nothing to prevent Sidious, too, from unlocking that mystery.
    Then he and his crippled apprentice might hold sway over the galaxy for ten thousand years, and live eternally.
    If they didn't kill each other first.
    In large part because Padme Amidala had died.
  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    I think Vader would have preferred to heal his body because, post Order-66, he's not really gung-ho about clones. Likewise, he'd be able to notice that clone bodies are pretty **** given Palpatine goes through them like cheap suits.

    Then again, I liked the retcon that Palpatine never went through with Transfer Essence until Endor. He was just BPing (Bantha Poodooing) Luke to seem more impressive.
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  21. Jedi Ben Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 1999
    star 6
    He also had to beg the help of the Dark Lords on Korriban too, if he was so good at it, he wouldn't have required any help!
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    There's been a retcon the Dark Lords of Korriban are actually the WORST people in the world for you to consult when you're a Sith Lord because they're jealous vindictive ****es.

    Which makes PERFECT sense.

    I totally believe they told Palpatine Anakin Solo's body was the only one available because they knew Han Solo would shoot him in the back.
  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    True, Marka Ragnos gave Plagueis a piece of his mind.
  24. DarthJenari Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    In Palpatine's defense, he went through most of his bodies because he was overcome by the Skywalkers, not due to any inherent problem with using Clones.
  25. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    Plus his physician sabotaged his clone bodies so they fell apart in a matter of days, apparently, at the behest of Carnor Jax/Lumiya/everyone because treachery is the way of the Sith.

    GEE, THAT MIDI-CHLORIAN MANIPULATION ABILITY TO RESTORE YOURSELF SURE WOULD HAVE COME IN HANDY THEN, EH PALPS? Too bad Plagueis' apprentice deemed it to be of no use.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 24, 2013
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