Lit Why did Vader missed these chances to eliminate the Emperor?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BedlamSpirit, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    True- his last body had been sabotaged by his doctor, so it wore out much faster than normal. Still, the Dark Empire endnotes do say that clone bodies in general wear out from dark side use faster than the original would.
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  2. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Sith don't usually go to the same place as Jedi. Since he died as Anakin, he got to go to the netherworld of the force, instead of chaos and nothingness, like most Sith.
  3. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Plagueis believed Chaos is more or less a state of mind.
  4. rumsmuggler Chosen One

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    Until he found out that it's real...if he is truly dead at least.
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Sep 25, 2013
  5. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Eh, it's all one Force.

    C.S. Lewis himself said that the difference between Hell and Purgatory would largely be a case whether you chose to get over yourself.
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  6. Lugija Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2009
    star 4
    I don't really like the idea of knowing as a fact what happens after death in fiction. It could be because it feels like something even the authors shouldn't know about their universe, or because, like every other young person, I know in my heart that I'm going to live forever.

    But anyway, I don't like this "Sith go to the Chaos and Jedi go to the netherworld" idea. I welcome different interpretations for different people and groups. The idea of Chaos sounds like what the Sith would come up with, the idea of losing themselves in death is the driving force of most of them.
  7. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    Makes you wonder why Palpatine did not transfered himself to a cloned Anakin, he would had been unstoppable effectively culminating the Great Experiment (creating the ultimate darkside warrior born from midichlorians) into himself.

    Also I would be surprised if Palpatine would teach Transfer Essence to Vader even after he attempted betraying him a second time in front of his son, also we know Palpatine had planned for Vader to trash his own son's body, would Palpatine really be so dense to teach Vader how to regain his full potential again? Why did he even wanted Luke if he planned for a full potential Anakin as an apprentice? Perhaps it was because Luke did not had the strained relationship he had with Vader and could mold him with less risk.

    Although perhaps, PERHAPS Palpatine's plan in case he taught Vader Transfer Essence would be to actually allow Vader to kill him and have Vader rule the Galaxy as Emperor for a while, perhaps reigning as Emperor would finally be enough to blot out the last glimmer of light in him, before Palpatine shows up in his clone body.

    After that? My guess is that Palpatine perhaps had so many clones, because he had planned to rule the Empire with Vader, with an eternal rivalry of master and apprentice killing each other over and over again, this way pushing each other to the limit each time becoming stronger mutually, an eternal Dark Empire which would be constantly switching Emperorhood between Palpatine and Vader.
  8. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    The Dark Empire comics state that Palpatine's clones are not actually 100% identical but heavily genetically modified and enhanced. It's possible another reason why Palpatine is able to mind-trick Luke and do godlike feats of Force power is because he's actually in a PalpaSkywalker body. Which may be why he's so focused on Anakin Solo.

    He actually is a blood relation to the Skywalkers now.

    But that would be stupid.
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  9. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    A 100% pure Anakin would still be better though, he is the chosen one after all. Imagine Palpatine in Anakin's body, he then bathes in the Pool of Knowledgement and drinks from the Font of Power like Abeloth did.

    How strond would Palpatine be?
  10. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
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    Very powerful, though I actually note Yoda was trying to say all that's unnecessary. The Force is infinite and anyone can channel it infinitely. They just need to open themselves up to that.
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  11. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    Infinitelly? As you mean actually use THE FULL power of the The Force? I had no idea about that, any information on that?
    Last edited by BedlamSpirit, Sep 25, 2013
  12. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    It's just an extrapolation from the fact it's part of the Jedi creed. Both Vader and Yoda both more or less state in the movies that the Force is infinite and a Star Wars Insider Q&A said that midiclorians only measure how much easier it is to tap it, not the upper limit of one's abilities. I admit, I've thought of someone ascending to become a "Force God" before and how it might be an interesting foe.

    But yes, to answer about Palpatine, the Kyle Katarn books state that if Jerec (or Kyle) had harnessed the Valley's power they could destroy Stars with but a whisper and cause whole regions of space to obey them just by willing them to.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 25, 2013
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Dark Force Rising is a Thrawn trilogy book- I think you're thinking of the Dark Forces: Jedi Knight illustrated novel.
  14. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    However it is not as if "Anyone can channel it infinitely" since the Valley of the Jedi involved Jerec absorbing within himself the combined power of thousands of Jedi souls. So it is not as you said that anyone can just channel it infinitely, even then Jerec would had just attained a lot of Force power, but would not had wielded the entirety of it.

    Too bad Kyle stoped Jerec before he could complete his Aphotheosis, would be interesting to see a fight between full Apotheosis Jerec and Dark Empire Palpatine.
    Last edited by BedlamSpirit, Sep 25, 2013
  15. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    What is with me today? I'm rolling 1s on all my Star Wars Knowledge rolls.
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  16. Lady_Misty Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 21, 2007
    star 4
    Anakin told Palpatine/Sidious that he would do whatever he asked in exchange for the knowledge to save Padme. Of course Padme dies which could negate the deal but after his injuries on Mustafar he was put in the suit to keep him alive. If some stuff is to be believed the suit needed to be checked every month to see if there was anything wrong with it or him. He had no money or any other way to deal with upgrades which could be done (the chest panel changes from episode to episode slightly) and by the time he would have had the means he is known and no one would want to help him or it would get back to the Emperor.

    Vader strikes me as a willing slave to the Emperor except in TESB where he offers his son the chance to defeat the Emperor and rule the galaxy as a family. However in RotJ Vader suddenly is disinterested in overthrowing the Emperor and if you add the Rule of Two in the mix Vader is setting Luke up to either die or kill him, Vader, in order to take his place at the side of the Emperor.

    Years ago in the Databank on StarWars.com I am pretty sure it said that shortly after TESB medical droids/personal informed the Emperor that Vader was dying and that there was nothing that could be done to stop it. But they did say that a fierce lightsaber duel would be the last thing he would do since it would tax his damaged body too much.

    Add that Vader hates himself for what he has done . . . I think we get a good picture of why.
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    The RoTJ novelization has it as Vader trying to make his ambition less obvious, when he says things like "I must obey my master" - it hammers home that Vader's goal is to see the Emperor dead once Palpatine and Vader have worked together to corrupt Luke.

    "Rise, my friend, I would talk with you,"
    Vader rose, and accompanied his master. They were followed in procession by the Emperor's courtiers, the royal guard, Jerjerrod, and the Death Star elite guard, with mixed reverence and fear.
    Vader felt complete at the Emperor's side. Though the emptiness at his core never left him, it became a glorious emptiness in the glare of the Emperor's cold light, an exalted void that could encompass the universe. And someday would encompass the universe ... when the Emperor was dead.
    For that was Vader's final dream. When he'd learned all he could of the dark power from this evil genius, to take that power from him, seize it and keep its cold light at his own core — kill the Emperor and devour his darkness, and rule the universe. Rule with his son at his side.
    For that was his other dream — to reclaim his boy, to show Luke the majesty of this shadow force: why it was so potent, why he'd chosen rightly to follow its path. And Luke would come with him, he knew. That seed was sown. They would rule together, father and son.
    His dream was very close to realization, he could feel it; it was near. Each event fell into place as he'd nudged it, with Jedi subtlety, as he'd pressed, with delicate dark strength.
    "The Death Star will be completed on schedule, my master," Vader breathed.

    And during the duel:

    Vader was impressed by Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more tutelage, first — training by both Vader and Palpatine — before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.
    So Vader had to shepherd the boy through periods like this, stop him from doing damage in the wrong places — or in the right places prematurely.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 25, 2013
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  18. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
    star 1
    Did Vader obvioulsy thought Palpatine would train Luke alongside him? It seems he never knew about Rule of Two.
  19. DarthJenari Force Ghost

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    Dec 17, 2011
    star 4
    Vader sounds so much like Dooku in that bottom passage from ROTJ.
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  20. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Dark Side Starkiller is like, "WE CAN TAKE HIM! NOW!"

    "Nope! He knows!"

    "He always knew! YOU'RE SITH! RULE OF TWO!"

    "Must bide my time!"

    "There will be no better time!"
  21. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    ROTJ Vader strikes me as a bad retcon on TESB Vader, where he's using the fleet to obsessively hunt down Luke under the guise of hunting down the Rebels "And I'm sure Skywalker is with them!"

    Then when Sidious calls him up long distance, he tells him they have a new enemy, the son of Anakin Skywalker, "How is that possible?" he plays dumb about it. Then when he confronts Luke he immediately tells him he can smoke the Emperor easily and that the Emperor has foreseen this and to join him to rule the galaxy as father and son. Vader is playing it slick.

    Then in ROTJ he's on Sidious' leash and it's stupid. I guess the way we have to take it is that when Vader is out in the field, he's actively trying to take down Sidious, but when he's proximate to his master, he becomes whipped and quickly comes to heel.
  22. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He probably thought Palpatine would treat Luke as yet another Dark Adept, a la Jerec, Lumiya, etc- just an exceptionally powerful one.
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  23. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    The Pre-Special Edition Original version is much better.



    Vader is cowed in this version. This sets up the relationship in ROTJ better. Vader is afraid of the Emperor and his plotting behind his back is less blatant.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 25, 2013
  24. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Feb 17, 2004
    star 5
    I like Vader playing dumb.
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  25. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    For me it's very tough because I *LIKE* Vader as an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction and the most competent man in the Empire.

    I.e. the Rebellion is KARKED the moment Vader turns his attention to them.

    However, a major part of his story is how he's a figure ravaged both physically and spiritually by evil. A hollow shell of a man.
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