Lit Why did Vader missed these chances to eliminate the Emperor?

Discussion in 'Literature' started by BedlamSpirit, Sep 20, 2013.

  1. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Jerec in my opinion had the potential to be the best Apprentice, I think Palpatine severly underestimated him, if he was willing to take Marek to replace Vader, I don't see why he didn't considered Jerec. Post Apotheosis Jerec was becoming more powerful than even full potential Vader could ever be, such a waste.
  2. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Post-Apotheosis Jerec was becoming more powerful than Palpatine, let's give him the full-credit he deserves.

    As for Jerec replacing Vader, I'm inclined to think that the Dark Jedi underneath him were the High Inquisitor's attempt to build an army to take Vader's life. I.e. he was planning to do what the villain in Highlander 4 was trying to do and just tag-team Vader. Yes, he'd lose probably everybody but maybe he'd slow Vader down enough to take him down.

    The thing is, I'm pretty sure Vader would have known that and not cared.

    You don't get to be Dark Lord of the Sith (apprentice or not) without knowing people want your job.
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  3. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    So how does Kyle defeat this powerful guy?
  4. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    In the books, Kyle uses the power of the Light Side Jedi to sever Jerec from the Valley of the Jedi's power.

    Jerec, horrified at losing his godhood, is promptly killed by Kyle in hand-to-hand combat. In the games, Jerec isn't a GOD, just a very powerful Dark Sider that Kyle can kill any number of ways. It helps Kyle Katarn is naturally already more or less as tough as Boba Fett being a Rebellion super-commando. He just has a bit of Force-Training in addition to that.

    He doesn't beat Jerec at the valley by being a Jedi, he beats him by being one of the toughest people in the GFFA and remembering he's surrounded by as many good guys in the Valley as Bad.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 25, 2013
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  5. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I mentioned yesterday that I recall controversy back in the day shortly after the game came out over how a barely trained guy could defeat seven Dark Jedi, particularly Jerec empowered by the Valley of the Jedi.

    That has since gone away, so it'll be curious to see if the same can be said about other controversial things that exist now.
  6. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    It is my opinion that when Kyle severed Jerec he still hadn't completely ascended, if he had done so Kyle shouldn't had been able to defeat him.

    "
    Quote:
    Jerec at last gained access to the valley, and for one lucid moment, absolute omniscience was his. The will of the Force, Chaos, the ancient civilizations of the Rakata and Xim, what lay beyond the galactic barrier, and the origins of the universe - - Jerec understood them all, and endowed with Force powers beyond imagination, he would have ruled accordingly."
    "The Force of thousands of Jedi is trapped here. If Jerec captures this power, he will be a creature such as the universe has never seen. The supernova of stars in a fleeting thought - the eradication of life from a star system in a whisper - will be within his power.”-Rahn on the Valley of the Jedi (from in game cut-scene)"

    Palpatine and Vader were powerful, the most powerful conventional good guys but I don't remember anywhere their powers to be outright equated to Omniscience, in fact I don't remember anyone in the entire Star Wars being equated to such a level.

    Makes me wonder, if Jerec had captured The Valley before Endor and Kyle couldn't stop it, how do you think Palpatine would had reacted to Jerec guys? Would he had accepted him as his apprentice? Or perhaps attempt a frontal fight agaisnt him?
    Last edited by BedlamSpirit, Sep 25, 2013
  7. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    What is the first quote from which mentions the Rakata and Xim?
  8. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader shows us what Vader was thinking during the Special Edition version of that conversation:

    "What is thy bidding, my Master?"
    From light years away, on Coruscant, the Emperor replied, "There is a great disturbance in the Force."
    "I have felt it," Vader said.
    "We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker."
    Offspring?! The surviving tissue in Vader's throat suddenly went dry. Through his shock, he managed to say, "How is that possible?"
    Without offering any explanation to support his stated conviction, the Emperor answered, "Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us."
    Having fought Luke Skywalker on Mimban, Vader was even more aware of the young man's powers than was the Emperor. But he also knew something else; Luke was as ignorant of their familial connection as Vader had been. If he had known the truth on Mimban, Vader thought, I would have sensed it. Still grappling with the Emperor's declaration, he struggled to find words that might discourage his Master's interest in Skywalker. "He is just a boy," Vader said. "Obi-Wan can no longer help him."
    The Emperor believed otherwise. "The Force is strong with him," he said. "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
    The Emperor had not said in so many words that he wanted Luke Skywalker dead, so Vader — needing Skywalker alive to accmplish his goals — took a different tack. "If he could be turned," Vader suggested, "he would become a powerful ally."
    "Yes," the Emperor mused, as if he had not thought of that possibility. Vader could only imagine what the Emperor was thinking. The Sith had long maintained their rule of two: one Master, one apprentice. Even Vader knew that there wasn't room enough in the galaxy for three Sith Lords, and yet the Emperor's hooded eyes seemed to sparkle as he said more emphatically, "Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?"
    "He will join us or die, Master," Vader said. He bowed, and the Emperor's hologram faded out.
    Now that the Emperor was interested in Luke Skywalker's fate, Vader knew he had to do everything in his power to find Luke before the Emperor found him.

    On the other hand, it also takes the approach that after the Emperor's second conversation with Vader in the movie ("His compassion for you will be his undoing. He will come to you, and then you will bring him before me.") Vader's confidence has cracked and he feels powerless to disobey his master.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 25, 2013
  9. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jul 30, 2000
    star 7
    Jerec would have incinerated Palpatine with a snap of his fingers. The Valley was depicted as the Endgame.

    Edit:

    While Star Wars is always changing, this is a rough breakdown of the Emperor's Pseudo-Sith Cult around himself.

    Sith Apprentices
    Starkiller: 20 odd years of Dark Side teaching. Later is replaced by Flint and Lumiya.

    The Top Guys

    Jerec: Jerec was basically a pseudo-Sith Lord. He had Sith Tattoos, studied Sith holocrons, and Sith scrolls while building himself a cadre of Dark Jedi followers. He's widely considered to be the most powerful of the Emperor's Dark Side minions after Vader.

    I believe, if Vader HAD to go, Jerec would have stepped up but been a disappointment.

    Joruus C'Boath: As powerful as Jerec but crazy as a Ronto in heat. He exists solely to guard the Emperor's storehouses.

    Kadann: Yes, that guy. He's a fallen Jedi Master and Counsellor who became leader of Darth Millennial's Sith cult due to Palpatine's influence. Jedgar is a Jedi Agricultural Corps member who got spurned by the Jedi Order for predicting the Jedi Purge but was later tutored by Kadann.

    Lord Cronal: We saw what this guy was up to and how bat**** crazy he was.

    Tremayne: The prototypical High Inquisitor, he was originally far less powerful but gradually became more or less the only Inquisitor who did his job other. Everyone else was completely incompetent or Jerec. He's rumored to be an Emperor's Hand.

    The Mid-Level Folk

    Sarcev Quest: A failed Jedi Knight who became retconned to be involved in everything. An Emperor's Hand.

    Jeng Droga: An Emperor's Hand. He was as love with Palpatine as Wayland Smithers is with Mister Burns.

    Hethrir: Retconned into not being a complete yutz.

    Adalric Brandl: Fallen Jedi Knight turned rival of Tremayne's.

    Mara Jade, Arden Lyn, and Roganda Ismaren: The other Emperor's Hands.

    Lumiya: No big deal during the Empire but a huge one after his death. It's also implied that while Palpatine was training her, Vader was *ALSO* training her as a replacement Starkiller and placeholder for Luke.

    Flint: Vader's other Starkiller replacement who didn't amount to much since he was the Diet Coke of Evil but who all three ROTJ spirits said was a big deal.
    Rokur Gepta: A snail Dark Side Wizard. No, seriously. Actually the size of a snail. Lando crushed him. He could make "hard light illusions."

    The Dark Jedi: Kam Solusar, Sedriss, ect. ect. Sedriss is notably a descendant of Ulic Qel-Dromel's family.

    Low Level Guys

    Shadow Guard/Sovereign Protectors: Imperial Royal Guard trained in the ways of the Dark Side.

    Jerec's Dark Jedi: Basically guys with the Dark Side they use to mess with people.

    Vost Tyne: Vader's golfing buddy that he taught how to force-choke people.

    The Secret Order of the Emperor: The Prophets of the Dark Side basically being a Sith cult that grew into a religion post-Endor. They were taught a smattering of Dark Side lore but were never anything huge. Maarek Stele is an oddball man out as he's empowered with the Dark Side but never does anything but fly very well.
    Last edited by Charlemagne19, Sep 25, 2013
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  10. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I'm not quite sure why Vader would be quite so obsessed with Skywalker before that conversation if he was suddenly surprised by the idea that he was his son.

    Edit: One of the flaws of the Expanded Universe is that any sense of subtlety or nuance in the films is frequently bulldozed over.
    Last edited by DigitalMessiah, Sep 25, 2013
  11. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    He knows there's a connection: just not what.

    From the same book:

    Even while inspecting his nearly completed flagship, the Super Star Destroyer Executor, at the Starship Yards of Fondor, Vader could not get Luke Skywalker out of his mind. He silently chewed on the name, and considered the fact that the boy had been born three years after the death of Shmi Skywalker. To the best of his knowledge, Anakin Skywalker had been his mother's only living blood relative.

    Could there have been other Skywalkers from Tatooine? Vader allowed the possibility. After all, it wasn't an entirely uncommon name in the galaxy.

    But Anakin and Padme Amidala had been expecting a baby nineteen years ago.

    Nineteen standard years.

    It's not possible, Vader thought. I killed Padme. The baby died with her.

    Not for the first time, he wondered if the Emperor had told him the whole truth about Padme's death. But I remember choking her ... seeing her collapse on Mustafar. I was so angry with her. And yet ...

    Luke Skywalker exists.

    Vader refused to believe the notorious Rebel's surname was merely a bizarre coincidence. If he had possessed any other name, Vader would not have hesitated to report what he had learned to the Emperor. But for purely selfish reasons, Vader kept the young Rebel's name to himself. To him, Luke Skywalker was more than a mystery to be solved.

    He is ... an opportunity. As strong with the Force as he may be, he is an opportunity ... an opportunity for even greater power.

    But who is he? Who were his parents? Could he have been Obi-Wan's son? But then why was he named Skywalker and raised by the Lars family? Or was he merely trained by Obi-Wan?

    Because Obi-Wan Kenobi, Shmi Skywalker, Owen and Beru Lars, and Padme Amidala were dead, there was only one way Vader could discover the truth. He would have to ask Luke Skywalker himself. All he had to do was find him.
  12. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    So would Palpatine go into hiding or resign himself if he felt the power of post-Apotheosis Jerec coming to Coruscant?
  13. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    Jerec would kill him. Probably by blowing up Coruscant's star or snuffing him with his mind. If Jerec was just as powerful as in the game, the two would hash it out oldschool style in the Senate.

    To the strongest!

    THE SITH WAY!

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  14. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I just think it's silly. If Sidious has "no doubt" that this is Anakin's son, Vader should doubly so. He's just playing dumb because he wants Luke to help him destroy the Emperor. "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this."
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  15. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    I know Jerec could oneshot him, I am just curious about Palpatine's reaction to Jerec having that power. Unless you are suggesting Jerec would not even allow Palpatine to perceive him before killing him immediately.

    Perhaps with such a gap in power Jerec would allow Palpatine to live, perhaps functioning as some sort of power behind the throne and allowing Palpatine to be the public face of the Empire.
  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Sep 2, 2012
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    Maybe- but unless another source retcons it- this is the default EU take on the situation.

    Vader didn't sense Leia's relationship to him either- yet we can accept that.
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  17. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    Leia's last name wasn't Skywalker and she didn't blow up the Death Star and attract his attention as someone strong in the Force. "The Force is strong with this one."

    "A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor."
    "Yes, I know."
    "My son is with them."
    "Are you sure?"
    "I have felt him, my Master."
    "Strange, that I have not."
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  18. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    That just shows he's better at sensing Luke's location than the Emperor- once he's fought Luke a couple of times and acknowledged their relationship.
  19. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    It's something Vader's been obsessed with since Luke blew up the Death Star because he knew Luke was his son as soon as he figured out his name.

    Or did Sidious have some Force guided insight that he was Vader's son that Vader simply didn't have? Sidious has no doubt because he knows there's no other way there's a powerful Skywalker other than it being Anakin's son, and Vader drew the same conclusion and didn't need Sidious to tell him. It's silly.
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    It's the author's attempt to work the Special Edition change into the EU without making a mess. My guess is that Lucas stated outright in audio commentary for that edition of ESB that this is the moment Vader learns Luke's his son- and the author had to go with that as a starting point.

    That author's written quite a few Star Wars "background books" - notably, The Essential Guide to the Force.
  21. Vialco Force Ghost

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    Mar 6, 2007
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    Funny you should mention that, I was just wondering about that this morning.

    Exactly what did Palpatine foresee?

    Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker following in Mace's footsteps and using his father's blade to deflect Palpatine's lightning on him and then decapitating him?

    Or maybe Sith Apprentice Luke Skywalker doing his father's bidding and using his own lightning to overwhelm Palpatine and blasting the Emperor to ashes?

    Either way, Palpatine clearly thinks that Luke can kill him, which is why he's so intent on either turning him or killing him.

    But this fear seems at odds with Palpatine's easy defeat of Luke on the Second Death Star.

    Does a lightsaber really make such a difference that Luke was defenseless without it?

    I guess Mace was able to put Palpatine on his back with his lightsaber, but unable to stand against the Force lightning without it.
  22. Charlemagne19 Chosen One

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    The Force is ambiguous.

    Most likely, Palpatine sensed Luke posed some sort of danger to him.

    He just didn't realize it was redeeming Vader.
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  23. DigitalMessiah Chosen One

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    I would guess that when Vader says "You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this," he's referring to Sidious saying "He could destroy us."
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  24. BedlamSpirit Jedi Master

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    Oct 14, 2011
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    Didn't Palpatine knew that Anakin through the prophecy was the only one that could beat him? I always assumed this was the primary reason to convert him.
  25. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

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    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Here's my take on why Vader blocked Luke's saber when he was trying to strike down Palpatine. It's not because he's a humble servant of Palpatine. Instead it's two things in combination: it's because he doesn't know if Palpatine is testing Vader and, strangely enough, also because there is good in Vader.

    It's very clear that Palpatine is expecting Vader to block the blow, most like through his power of foresight. Palpatine doesn't seem startled. He doesn't move a muscle. He simply lets Vader block it. Then Palpatine smiles and then Force laughs. However, Vader didn't know that Palpatine was going to just sit there. Palpatine could've just used to Force to stop Luke's arm in motion the way Yoda stops Ventress, Palpatine could've force pushed Luke away, he could've blasted him with lightning. Vader had no idea how Palpatine would respond, so he had to look like he was willing to come to his master's defense or he'd have a lot of explaining to do.

    I also think there's a second reason why Vader would block the blow: there is still good in Vader. We know this to be true because Luke says he senses good in him and Jedi don't use deception. Palpatine's plan is that he wants Luke to give in to his hate because it's a path to the dark side. If Vader, who still has some good in him, doesn't intervene, then Luke would've killed Palpatine in rage, thus turning him to the dark side, and the only good part in him is the part that cares about his son, so Vader wouldn't want him to turn to the dark side.

    This is complicated further because there is only a hint of good in Vader at that time and he doesn't want to return to the light side, (if he was willing to return to the light, he would've done so on Endor), so this creates the problem of what will happen if Luke were to kill Palpatine. There are two possible scenarios, and both are bad for Vader. If Luke does fall to the dark side, then Vader, who has some good in him, wouldn't want this outcome because this would turn his son evil. However, if Luke successfully resists the dark side temptation of killing Palpatine in rage and remains faithful to the light side, then that also presents a problem because Vader, at that point doesn't want to return to the light side, so Vader would have to battle Luke, and in that fight either Vader would die (which is not what he would want) or he would kill his son (which is also an outcome he would not want).

    The whole problem at this point is that Vader feels himself being pulled back to the light but he doesn't think he has strength of will to do so. That's why he says: "It is too later for me, Son" after Luke says: "Search your feelings, Father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict in you. Let go of your hate." If Vader really wasn't conflicted, Vader would've responded very differently. He would've said: "I thrive of my hate. The power my hate gives me will allow me to kill you, if the Emperor so wishes." Instead, Vader's response -- "It's too late for me, Son" -- is basically admitting that he knows he's gone down the wrong path, that he joined the dark side in error, and that he would reject the dark side if he could, and just this admission alone confirms that Vader really is conflicted and that Luke is right when he senses good in him.

    Vader is in a very different state of mind than where he was in TESB. At that point, Luke was just a name, and so Vader had grand plans of ruling the galaxy as father and son. Pre-TESB duel, Luke is really more just an instrument for Vader to overthrow Palpatine, and there certainly isn't an ounce of good in Vader's plan of ruling as father and son. However, it seems Luke was right about why Vader didn't destroy him at the end of their battle in TESB. After meeting his son, and especially after hearing Luke's agony when he learns that Vader is his father (not something most fathers would typically like to hear), Vader did grow to be conflicted and he started to care for Luke as any father would care for his son. Vader just didn't think those feelings he felt about his son were strong enough to break the dark side's hold on him.

    A lot of people seem to think that Vader's love for his son just sprung to life in him when he saw his son being tortured to death by Palpatine, but I think a close reading of the films shows that some of those feelings were present in Vader long before then. Even at the end of TESB, Vader doesn't return to his Force choking ways. Instead, he seems reflective when his son escapes on the Falcon.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Sep 25, 2013