PT Why didn't Anakin bring Padme back from the dead?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Twi'lekPrince, Mar 25, 2013.

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  1. Darth Gartin Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 1
    The only sith I can think of that could acually cheat death was darth sion (lord of pain). And he could only use that power on himself as far as I know. Sidious however could transfer his essence between body's. something he never bothered to teach Vader by the way. IMO Anakin was evil from day one and Sidious could sense it. Even the Jedi council could sense it. Even if Anakin knew the truth that Sidious could not bring back the dead he would have fallen anyway. (Sooner or later).
  2. hlc88 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    Err I doubt Anakin was evil from day one, from the moment he was born. That's a bit harsh.
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  3. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 5
    The Jedi can sense a bit of fear in him (of losing his mother) and anger (from having been a slave all his life) but the fact that his first reaction to people on trouble on Tatooine (Qui-Gon and the others) was to try to help them even at considerable risk to himself (by participating in a Podrace) speaks well of his character at least as of TPM.
  4. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    If Anakin is not an idiot, then how could he have forgotten that his former mentor, Qui-Gon Jinn was killed by a Sith lord? That Anakin had his arm cut off by Count Dooku, who is also a Sith Lord? Or that PalpSidious is the master of both Sith lords and is the main cause of all the problems that took place in the prequels? All of that should prove to Anakin that the Sith are evil. Not to mention that the same person who promised to help Anakin save Padme was trying to kill her for years, endangered Anakin's life, and has lied to him and everyone else for years. The moment that Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious should tell Anakin that everything he knew about him and their friendship were all lies and all the information I pointed out is plenty of reasons for Anakin to not trust him anymore. Therefore, Anakin knows that the Jedi were right about PalpSidious and should not believe anything he says at this point, especially the whole "I have the power to save the one you love" speech. Unfortunately, Anakin was unwilling to let go of his fear of losing Padme, he allowed PalpSidious to sucker him into cutting off Mace's hand while PalpSidious electrocutes him out of the window. If Anakin wanted to leave the Jedi Order, he could've done so without killing them off or agreeing to be PalpSidious's apprentice but he had to be greedy for more power so he did the opposite and it costed him Padme's life and robbed him of his kids while he ends up in a black-armored suit and helmet.

    This is another example of how stupid Anakin is. Before Palpatine revealed himself as Darth Sidious, he mentioned that his mentor taught him everything about the force, "even the nature of the dark side". Surely, Anakin would've figured out that he was talking about Darth Plagueis which should tell Anakin that PalpSidious is the apprentice who killed Plagueis. After PalpSidious revealed himself, Anakin should've known that PalpSidious never really wanted Padme alive since he has conspired with the separatists to have her killed for years. Plus, she is a much bigger influence on Anakin who can motivate him into giving up the dark side and PalpSidious doesn't want that to happen. When PalpSidious kills Mace, Anakin doesn't really care if he's lying to him or not because he's too scared out of his mind over the realization that he's made himself an enemy of the Jedi by helping PalpSidious. Anakin will never go back to them without anyone sensing his thoughts and discovering that he betrayed Mace so what better way for PalpSidious to cement Anakin's turn to the dark side then to have him lead a clone army to attack the Jedi temple. PalpSidious also knows that having him do this will sever Anakin's bond with Padme because she won't have anything to do with him anymore once she finds out what he has done.

    The fact that Padme is now dead should tell Anakin that he turned to the dark side for nothing. He made his nightmares become real by joining the Sith and ruined his own life because of it. The idea that Anakin is continuing to serve the man who made him ruin his own life goes beyond stupidity because nobody in real life would ever do such a thing. Hell, noone would ever betray their friends and co-workers for a guy who, upon discovering his real identity, was pretending to be your friend your whole life.
    Last edited by PMT99, Sep 3, 2013
  5. darth ladnar Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2013
    star 3
    Qui-Gon and Obi initiated that duel as much as Maul did, and Obi and Anakin initiate the duel with Dooku as much as Dooku did. In fact, on each occasion, the Jedi double-team the Sith, which is not particulary fair, but that's not the main point. The main point is that your rival can be on the opposing side, even want to fight to the death, and not be evil. General Lee was General Grant's rival in the Civil War, but General Lee wasn't evil. In fact, General Lee was asked by Lincoln to be a general in his army (perhaps even the top general of the North, I can't remember exactly). There are tons of times when neither sides in a war, especially those doing the fighting, are evil. Soldiers and officers from the opposing sides in WW1 and WW2 purposely contacted each other and met up after those wars ended.

    When group A wants to achieves something and group B wants to oppose them, there's going to be conflict. What matters are the beliefs that motivate each side. Palpatine has been able to convince Anakin that the beliefs that motivate the Jedi are questionable, and the Jedi have done questionable things. Even Obi doesn't agree with the decision to have Anakin spy on Palpatine. The Jedi aren't willing to help Anakin save Padme. The Jedi's practice of keeping Padawans away from their families also helped to lead to Anakin's mother's death. And the Jedi unfairly convicted Anakin's padawan -- Ahsoka -- in the Clones Wars.

    But here's the most important part. Anakin doesn't really know what the Sith beliefs are, so he can't judge them. All he knows is that each group has the exact same goal: the Jedi want to get rid off the Sith and that the Sith want to get rid of the Jedi.

    In the film, Palpatine says that his mentor taught him "everything there is to know about the Force" and Palpatine tells Anakin that to truly understand the Force: "One must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic narrow view of the Jedi." So, Palpatine is really offering Anakin the opportunity to understand the Sith ways and the Jedi ways, and then letting Anakin make the choice. The Jedi, on other hand, refuse to let Anakin make that choice. They only teach him their side and make that choice impossible.

    Now, since we know that the Sith do awful things, like order the destruction of planets and rule as tyrants because we've seen all the films, we know enough about the Sith philosophy to know its pretty awful. However, this is the most important thing: Anakin has had no opportunity to learn what the Sith really stand for. He's only been told they're bad from the Jedi, and since the Jedi are doing morally questionable things, they are not a credible source.

    I think if you watch the films again, especially ATOC, you'll see that Palpatine had nothing to do with this. Count Dooku is the one trying to kill Padme, and he's doing so to get Nute Gunray to join the Separatists. Gunray's condition for joining the Separatists is Padme's death.

    I don't think there is any reason that you to have to conclude this. Plagueis could've been a guy who lived a thousand years ago. Palpatine simply could've learned of Plagueis's ability to cheat death from his mentor, who learned it from his mentor, etc. Palpatine doesn't even specify that his master was a Sith. He makes it seem like his mentor knows both the Sith and the Jedi ways.

    You also keep pointing out that Anakin should be skeptical that Palpatine really wants to help prevent Padme's death. Well, there is another group that Anakin knows is unwilling to help prevent Padme's death: the Jedi.


    I pretty much agree with you here, though I think that Palpatine has foreseen that she'll die because of Anakin's actions.

    I think at this point Anakin realizes that he's turned to the dark side for nothing and that Palpatine has lied to him, but at this point Anakin is not buddies with Palpatine anymore. He is only "serving" him because he's waiting for the right time to kill Palpatine and take over. TESB makes this clear. "Join me and we can rule the galaxy as father and son." Even in ROTS he talks of overthrowing him.
    Last edited by darth ladnar, Sep 3, 2013
  6. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    First off, neither Maul or Dooku were helpless victims when they both fought 2 Jedi at the same time and neither was PalpSidious when he fought 4 Jedi (he only pretended to be helpless when Anakin arrived). Second, Anakin has seen what the Sith are capable of even before the Jedi tell him anything. Surely, he would remember that Darth Maul almost ran him over with his speeder bike before he attacks Qui-Gon on Tatooine and Anakin heard Qui-Gon say that Maul was after Padme. When Anakin arrives on Naboo, he sees Maul there fighting for the Trade Federation, who has taken control of the planet with their droid armies. He even heard Mace and Yoda say there are 2 Sith Lords, "a master and an apprentice" meaning that there's 1 other Sith Lord that's still on the loose who was involved with both Maul and the Trade Feds. Those moments should tell Anakin that the Sith are evil but if not, then he should also remember that Count Dooku sent assassins to kill Padme and he forced her, Anakin, and Obi-wan to perform in gladiatorial games on Geonosis. Plus, Dooku declared war on the Jedi and the Republic when he commanded the battledroids to attack them thus starting the Clone Wars. Anakin shouldn't have to be told what the Sith stand for because each Sith Lord's actions speak for themselves and him learning that Palpatine is Darth Sidious, the Sith lord whom the Jedi were looking for, should've destroyed all credibility that comes out of PalpSidious' mouth, including the concept that he can help Anakin access the death-defying power to save Padme. As for the Jedi's "morally questionable things", Anakin shouldn't blame the Jedi for his mother's situation because he knows that Qui-Gon did try to free Shmi from slavery only to no avail and he's no longer around to try again. Plus, none of the other Jedi besides Obi-wan is even aware of her slavery status so there was nothing they can do about it. It is messed up that the Jedi unfairly convicted Ahsoka but how are they going to argue against the evidence that's pointing at her even if its circumstantial? Lastly, while I agree that making Anakin spy on PalpSidious is a horrible idea, that's mostly due to the end result of it when the Jedi learn the hard way that they practically handed Anakin over to the Sith by doing this. However, they weren't wrong about their concerns that the leader of the Republic is abusing his power over both the senate and the Jedi Order so they wanted Anakin to know why PalpSidious is doing this. If Anakin didn't have his head stuck in his own ass, he'd see that PalpSidious is running the republic to the ground and even Padme knows this when she tried to tell Anakin that his "friend" is damaging all the principals and democracies of the republic and turning it into "the very evil they've been fighting to destroy". Anakin may not like what the Jedi or Padme are saying to him but in the end, he realized that they NEVER lied to him unlike PalpSidious who actually was lying to him from the beginning.

    At the end of that same film, we see Dooku entering an abandoned factory on Coruscant where, surprise, he meets up with PalpSidious. We learn that Dooku is his new apprentice and they've been consipiring together to start a separatist movement. PalpSidious told Dooku to do whatever it takes to rally any star systems to his cause, even if it meant killing Padme. As James T. Kirk would say in Star Trek 6, "As captain, I am responsible for the conduct of the crew under my command" and since PalpSidious is the captain of both Dooku and the Separatists, then he has everything to do with their murder attempts against Padme.


    It's not that the Jedi were unwilling to help Anakin prevent Padme's death, they're trying to tell him that death is inevitable for everyone, that there is no plausible way to cheat death, and that no such power to do otherwise even exists. Anakin doesn't want to accept that so he would rather trust the word of a man whose been playing him for a sucker his whole life instead of the people who tried to save his soul including his own wife. As for PalpSidious not specifying that his master was a Sith, he shouldn't have to because Anakin knows that PalpSidious didn't learn the ways of the force from the Jedi since his force potential went undetected from them since his birth. Plus, with the knowledge that the Sith had been hiding from the Jedi for 1,000 years, Anakin should've figured out that PalpSidious' master is a Sith lord and is the much talked-about Darth Plagueis.
  7. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    I agree that Maul, Dooku and Palpatine were not helpless victims when they fought the Jedi. However, neither Maul or Dooku were the aggressors. In other words, they did not start their fights. Palpatine, on the other hand, was the aggressor in his duel against Mace and the other 3 Jedi who accompanied the latter. He attacked first. I would say the same about his duel against Yoda . . . except that the Jedi Master struck the first blow by knocking out the Emperor's guards.




    But the Jedi failed to sense their own fear at the unknown aspect that Anakin represented.
    Last edited by DRush76, Sep 5, 2013
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    But you're forgetting, Palpatine has spent thirteen years indoctrinating Anakin's thought process into that of a Sith Lord. Palpatine has been conditioning him into questioning everything that the Jedi have taught him and instead, made him feel more than think. He knows that the Sith are evil, but he also knows that Palpatine is his only chance to maintain a small piece of sanity. He's purposely ignoring and deluding himself into thinking that Palpatine is still his friend, in spite of what his training has taught him to believe otherwise. Anakin's making emotional decisions, not rational and logical ones.

    In his mind, it is their fault because they never made an effort. They clung to their outdated mandate to stay out of the Outer Rim and its affairs, because the Republic considered it outside their jurisdiction. The Jedi should have been above that and for that, he can blame the Jedi.

    Because they should have put their trust in Ahsoka like they had him and with the other Jedi.

    Palpatine has also been telling him that the Republic was corrupt and dying, and needed to be changed into an organization that forced people to get along and sort out their issues. Something he expressed three years earlier on Naboo and again, while on Mustafar.

    Right, because she was the political opposition. But Palpatine is dangling an offer of hope and redemption for failing his mother, three years ago. Anakin made a promise to never let anyone that he ever cared for, die again, if he could stop it. His moral conflict is in question and he cannot shake the image of his failure, when confronted with Palpatine's story about Plagueis. He told Anakin that it was okay to get angry, like he did before. He's so scared of death that he's ignoring the root cause of the death is in front of him.


    That is what desperation is. He cannot accept the truth that everyone dies. That's why he tells Luke that it doesn't matter if his helmet comes off or not, he will die anyway and he has finally accepted that.
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  9. JediKnightOB1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 26, 2003
    star 5
    I remember Obi-Wan doing the same sort of thing to Luke after the Tusken Raider whooped his ass. Old Ben used the "Force Touch." I think it is a technique but I don't think it is used a lot.
  10. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's not raising the dead. Obi-wan was most likely using the Force to bring Luke around. Reviving the dead is something that a Jedi cannot do, because it is a violation of the Force and the only immortality is to physically die and become a ghost. This is what Qui-gon learned from the Whills and taught the others.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    This highlights one of the differences between the film and the novel. In the book Palpatine basically admits outright that Plagueis was his master.
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  12. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4

    Anakin should have done this. Anakin should have done that. The Jedi should have done this. The Jedi should have done that. The problem with many fans is that they expect their characters - especially those deemed "the good guys" to either be all knowing or incapable of making mistakes. Even big mistakes.

    I've noticed lately that many fans of television, movies and novels practically demand the so call "heroes" - especially in stories that feature action and adventure - to either be in the right at all times, or most of the times. Which only leads me to believe that most people should avoid becoming writers.
    Last edited by DRush76, Sep 18, 2013
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  13. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    After the events of ROTS, I'm sure Vader found out the truth about Plagueis. I admit that I haven't kept up in the EU. But before then, he'd had no reason to think that there was a direct connection between the two, since Palpatine frames the story in such a way as to make it seem like Plagueis could have existed a thousand years ago, or even further back.
  14. SithStarSlayer Ntwadumela: he who greets w/ fire Prequel & SWTV

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 2003
    star 6
    In the suit, would Vader want Padme to see him like that?[face_thinking]
  15. PMT99 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2000
    star 4
    You maybe right about Dooku (since Anakin foolishly believed that he can defeat him without Obi-wan's help) but Maul WAS the aggressor when he sneak-attacked Qui-Gon on Tatooine. After Qui-Gon escaped to Queen Amidala's ship, he fell on his ass trying to catch his breath and he knew deep down that he'll not survive his next encounter with Maul. That's why Qui-Gon needed Obi-wan to fight alongside with him when they meet Maul again on Naboo because he figured that a) he'd have a better chance of surviving so he could train Anakin and b) Maul wouldn't stand a chance against 2 Jedi. Unfortunately, Qui-Gon was wrong on both counts since Darth Maul still managed to separate the Jedi duo and has killed Qui-Gon and tossed Obi-wan down a bottomless pit. As for the PalpSidious/Yoda duel, PalpSidious is still the aggressor even before Yoda stepped foot into his office. Remember, he gave the "Order 66" command to Vadakin and his clone troops which brought about the complete genocide of the Jedi Order and Yoda would've joined his fellow Jedi in the neatherworld of the Force had he not sensed everything that was happening throughout the galaxy. Yoda out-maneuvered the clonetroopers who tried to shoot him and took a ship off the planet Kashyyk so he could make it back to Coruscant and settle the score with PalpSidious.

    But he, of all people, must realize that the Jedi can't be everywhere and save everyone. If the Jedi had free Shmi, the other slaves would expect the Jedi to free them too and that's too much to ask for the Jedi. As usual, Anakin cannot accept that not everyone can be saved so he copped out and joined the Sith.

    Even if they did, it wouldn't have stopped Tarkin and his senate officials from arresting Ahsoka. Plus, as Mace said, the Clone Wars has put the Jedi on bad terms with both the Republic and the galaxy-wide public. The last thing the Jedi want is for everyone to view them as traitors for helping a fugitive jedi.

    But after Anakin made his "You're the Sith lord" comment, he'd have known that PalpSidious is the main reason why the Republic is corrupt and dying. Of course, he wouldn't care about that when he's on Mustafar since he's fully corrupted by the dark side at that point.
  16. Malcolm Reynolds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2013
    star 4
    I think so. He was still hopelessly in love.
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  17. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    That's the point in his turning. He believed that the Jedi should have done more than they ever did, because they should have been masters of their own destiny, instead of slaves to a corrupt system. In his view the Jedi should have forced a solution, rather than just turn a blind eye to all galactic matters, because they were afraid to get their hands dirty. That's why he supported what Palpatine said during the meadow picnic. People should be forced to do what's best, regardless of any hesitancy. That the biggest problem was that people didn't care to help others, as his mother taught him. Anakin had trouble understanding humility and limitations.

    And that rubbed him the wrong way. Note that as Vader, he doesn't give a damn about opinions and will choke someone for having one. Ask Admiral Motti.


    But the Senate was corrupt long before he took charge. It was that way when the Trade Federation bought a seat in the Senate. It was that way when the Chancellor's office became weak and ineffectual. The only thing Palpatine did was expose the corruption and show how a strong hand was needed to take charge, since the Jedi refused to do it out of fear of becoming evil. A point of view that prevents them from embracing a larger view of the Force.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Sep 21, 2013
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