PT Why didn't Anakin bring Padme back from the dead?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Twi'lekPrince, Mar 25, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, I know, you are saying that he could have meant that "Plagueis taught Palptatine everything Palpatine knows" but may have withheld certain secrets to himself.




    I don't agree with you on this, I didn't yesterday, I don't now. and I won't tomorrow.

    How many different ways do I have to tell you that I reject this notion? Why do you keep trying to convince me to change my mind? I don't agree with your point, we don't have to agree. I said that many posts ago. We don't have to agree.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 6, 2013
  2. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    It shows that nothing he said is necessarily a lie, because there is a possible scenario where he is not lying about any of it. It doesn't matter if you reject that scenario. It's still possible whether you reject it or not.
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Fine, you consider that a possibility, I do not.

    That's that, right? You don't need to bother me anymore on this right?

    We aren't going to change each other's minds.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 6, 2013
  4. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    You haven't demonstrated in any way that it is not possible. You merely reject it because it's not what you want.

    Thus, we've established that "Palpatine was definitely lying" is false. That's that, right?
  5. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No, I think you miss the entire point of the scene and are so caught up in what you think is a clever semantic point that you can't see that.

    He is clearly telling Anakin that the secret has been passed down, and that it is something that he could learn. And then when the time comes, bait and switch. And why the bait and switch? Because he needs Anakin to go out and kill. And the promise of that secret is the bait. It is a con, and it was from the beginning. He has been lying to Anakin. Either about his ability to share that power, the existence of the power in the first place, or his willingness to ever share it with him. But he is lying about something. I Anakin had half a brain he would have cut Palpatine in half the second he said that they had to "discover the secret". He should have killed him then and there. He didn't, because he is a fool. And he got played for a fool.

    I do not agree with anything you have had to say on the subject, and I won't later either because you basically just keep saying the same thing,

    We have made it clear that we are at an impasse. So why do you keep wasting my time with an interpretation you know I reject?

    You can feel free to look at it that way if you want. Why do you insist on trying to sell it to me?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 6, 2013
  6. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    No.

    You think? :rolleyes: That does not mean it was also passed down.

    Just saying "clearly" doesn't prove any such thing. Palpatine sometimes uses a tactic that you can't even imagine. Jedi are not the same as Muggles.

    In the EU version, which is consistent with the relevant section of the film, he is lying about nothing. Thus in the film he is potentially lying about nothing.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 6, 2013
  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I haven't agreed with you all day, do you really think that's going to change?

    I said it before and I'll say it again, I understand your argument and I reject it. I do not agree with you. Why can you not just accept that we don't agree?

    I say that the scene is clear. Plaguies taught his apprentice everything that he had to offer him, and then was murdered. I do not agree with your reading of that scene. Itwon't no matter how many times you repeat it.

    And the EU doesn't change that. You already know that I don't judge the films by the EU.

    That is that.

    What is the point of this?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 6, 2013
  8. Skelter Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 1
    What makes you think Anakin can do that?
  9. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    There is no way Palpatine could possibly know that he had been told everything Plagueis knew. Unless Plagueis told him so. Unfortunately, your whole premise is based on the concept that Sith lie, so... [face_whistling]
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    He knows about the power, since he told us the story. And Palpatine, a brilliant strategist, isn't going to kill his master until he has squeezed every last drop of knowledge out of him that he can. He waited until he got everything he could out of him, and then he killed him. That is what the movie tells us. We know he knows about the power, because we learn of it's existence from Palpatine . Are you really suggesting he would just leave something like that on the table by murdering his master prematurely? Your point is no point, it goes against the logic of the film. This is just semantics over the word He. Word games.

    You point to the EU, the same EU that has Plagueis alive during TPM and tells us Maul is not an apprentice. It's all retconned EU crap. I don't care about that book. That book is not the movie.

    But you aren't answering my main question, which is why at this point you continue to keep bothering me with this.

    Do you really think it's going anywhere?

    You're just making the same point over and over again. Do you really think I'm going to disagree with you all day, and then after 20 times or so change my mind? I don't agree with you, I think you've got it all wrong. Why can't you just accept that we don't agree with each other?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 7, 2013
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Does "everything I could get out of him" mean the same thing as "everything he knew"? [face_thinking]

    If he expects to figure it out eventually on his own, and is prompted to "seize the moment" by the dark side itself? Yes.

    Not a retcon, since the films never said Plagueis was not alive during TPM. You merely assumed. Contradiction of your assumptions does not a retcon make.

    That is widely misunderstood. So that Palpatine could get away with having any kind of apprentice in the first place, it was portrayed to Plagueis that Maul was just an assassin. But Palpatine didn't intend for Maul to be defeated on Naboo, so after Palpatine's killing of Plagueis that would have made Maul the official second Sith if things had turned out differently.
  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Yes, I made my meaning clear. Palpatine would not have killed his master until he got literally everything he could out of him. The story he tells us is clear, you're the one changing it around. You say, we don't know who "he" refers to over and over. Actually, I do. You don't.


    You're a funny guy, you'll say literally anything won't you. Not a retcon? You're nuts.

    TPM makes it clear that Maul is the apprentice, to change that fact is to retcon it. That is a retcon by any reasonable standard

    Sidious introduces him as his apprentice. He didn't have to do that, doing that serves no purpose. Other than, you know, he was at the time.

    And the rule of two was a main story point in TPM. There is not a hint of any other Sith Lord. I don't accept EU changes to this story. To introduce the Plaguies character to the events of TPM is a retcon

    The EU does not interest me, I can't figure out why you keep bothering me
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 7, 2013
  13. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    PALPATINE: I thought not. It's not a story the Jedi would tell you. It's a Sith legend. Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life ... He had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying.

    ANAKIN: He could actually save people from death?

    PALPATINE: The dark side of the Force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural.


    AMBULANCE PARAMEDIC: Where's my dark cloak and "Darth" prefix, boss?

    :D
    Iron_lord likes this.
  14. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    "Everything he could get out of him" does not mean the same thing as "everything he knew". Palpatine still has no way of really knowing that he learned everything his master knew. To act as if Plagueis would tell Palpatine everything would be to deny the nature of the Sith ( if not people in general ).

    It could be either one, so your version is no better than the alternative. Thus you don't know, you just assume.

    Maul is Sidious' apprentice in the film. Maul is Sidious' apprentice in the EU. Sidious calls Maul his apprentice in the film. Sidious calls Maul his apprentice in the EU. Big difference.

    Is Yoda meant to have intimate knowledge of the practices of the latter-day Banite Sith? Is it impossible that some Sith would fail to respect the rule with the same fervency as, say, Bane? Did you forget that Plagueis didn't see Maul as a Sith? Can the rule even be taken entirely literally, given that it says there can be no less than two and we're told of this at a time when the Jedi believe there is only one remaining Sith?

    Scenarios outlined in the EU show that your beliefs about the film are not necessarily accurate.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 8, 2013
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  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    Why do you keep bothering me with this crap? Why???????????????????????????????????????????????

    I don't agree with these points, I haven't for several days, why do you keep bothering me??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

    You already have my answers to your opinions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Go back through the six pages of answers already on this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 8, 2013
  16. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Bane? Plageuis didnt see Maul as a Sith? Speak about what's in the films thank you.
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  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    I have no interest in EU explanations. If people like them that's fine, but this guy already knows that the EU doesn't sway me. He just has to have the last word.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 8, 2013
  18. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Did these films show that Plagueis did see Maul as a Sith? [face_thinking]
  19. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    Plagueis and Maul were never mentioned in the same breath in the films. So what's your point?
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  20. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    The ROT philosophy exists in this EU, Palpatine even says Plagueis is not to be excused from it.
  21. Jcuk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 16, 2013
    star 4
    The films. It's not a difficult question.
    Captain Tom Coughlin likes this.
  22. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    That makes no sense.

    "PALPATINE IS TEH LIAR" = not in the films.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 8, 2013
  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 30, 2013
    star 4
    No matter which way you cut it, he leads Anakin to believe that he holds the key to saving Padme, and when the time comes he doesn't pay up.

    Then he changes his tune, and tells Anakin that he has to continue to murder to become strong enough to discover the secret, a secret he already has alluded to being known. Again, whether a bold lie or an implied lie, it is still a lie.

    He is playing Anakin for a fool the entire time. And if Anakin had half a brain in his head, he would have struck him down for it. Anakin sold his soul to the Devil. and loses everything because of it. Not only did Palpatine lie to him about saving his wife, he set up a chain of events that directly led to her death. He probably had forseen that. He needed her dead. Her death was a key to him.

    The promise of Anakin ever finding a way to save his wife was a lie. It was from the beginning.

    There is no amount of word play that changes that. It is a lie, whether bold or inferred it is a lie. And the EU doesn't count for anything, that book didn't even exist at the time the movie was made. There is no reason to care what it says in this context.

    A game of semantics over the word He isn't very convincing.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Apr 8, 2013
  24. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Palpatine: Have you ever heard of the Tragedy of Darth Plageuis?

    Anakin: No but if you hum a few lines I'll know the tune.

    Thank you, I'm here all week.
    Cryogenic likes this.
  25. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    When the time comes he still holds the key to saving Padme. What does the phrase "work together" mean to you?

    Sorry, you haven't proven any of it to be a lie. Just keep chanting "I don't care about the EU" as if that means the EU scenario where none of it was a lie somehow cannot be possible just because you don't want it to be.

    As far as he knows that means Padme dies. "Work together".

    Not a lie. Just something you want to be a lie.

    Just the fact that it proves your assumptions are not necessarily correct.

    What's not convincing is the idea that Plagueis actually told Palpatine everything, or that Palpatine would have any way of knowing that he had. You still haven't explained how that makes sense.
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Apr 8, 2013
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