why didnt anakin rescue shmi before?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by dark_charlie, May 2, 2004.

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  1. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Incorrect. Mine is the null hypothesis. We are talking about something that has already happened in the films to date. I've said as outsiders, we can't interpret their Code. However, if they've consciously done the thing, and raise no objections even after seeing the results, then we know that by default it must have been part of their Code.
    Because if not, Lucas would have made that point.


    And Lucas doesn't forget this kind of stuff right? Just like he didn't forget to tell us why Padme never bothered. Right?
    Right?
    [face_laugh]

    However, some people (like yourself) don't understand how their action fits within that Code.

    Well I guess I'm just too dumb
    Still - I'm smart enough to know that this isn't 'their action' and it isn't 'their Code', it's your theories, and your 'Code'.

    You said that 'uneducated outsiders' can't tell the Jedi what their policies are, and yet that's exactly what you're doing. But I see once again that you can't stick by your principles, well this one has bitten you on the ass, and it's gonna keep biting. By your own standard you have negated all your theories on the Jedi. But of course it's a double standard - it doesn't apply to you, meanwhile you keep telling me that I don't understand the Jedi code and that I shouldn't be telling them what to do [rolls eyes]


    Regardless of whether my explanation is the correct one or not, there is by default some correct explanation,

    This isn't a mathematical equation. This is a story made up by someone and it doesn't 'by default' automatically make sense. Do you understand that?

    In fact, you keep referencing an old Kenobi and Qui-gon Jinn. The former did the things you describe after the Jedi Order was already destroyed, while the latter was the most rebellious Jedi seen onscreen to date. That makes for the complete antithesis of "typical Jedi behavior.

    Ah-ah [face_shame_on_you] - you're an uneducated outsider and you can't dictate Jedi policy.
    And it's funny - a few pages back you were describing QG as a "perfect example" of the Jedi. You can't even stand by your own arguments.
    So let's see - you're throwing out QG's behaviour, Old Obi Wan's behaviour (no reason), you also said Yoda's behaviour was untypical, well what's left? Oh - your Resource Management theories which are nowhere in the films. Thanks, but I'll stay with what's in the films.


    Whether intentionally or not, you just overlooked the substance of the whole argument. Again, coincidental help is just that, help by coincidence. Without any further information, we are forced to conclude that a Jedi is as equally likely to help her coincidentally as not to. A 50/50 chance

    What are you on about? This isn't Schroedinger's Cat we're talking about, we have plenty of further information - she's a slave, she risked all to help them, the Jedi are against slavery. The Jedi do good things, they help people etc. etc., you seem to be forgetting about all of this.
    And you also seem to be confusing the idea of coincidence and chance. Your ideas clearly fly in the face of what's shown in the movies , - if this scene occurred in the films - if a bunch of Jedi, archivists and doctors went to see her and didn't try and free her because they couldn't be bothered - it would be laughable.


    What do you want, an exhaustive list of good reasons not to? First off, asking for "good" reasons is already ignoring the whole principle behind coincidental help as I defined it. But in any case, I don't see how its fair if I can provide reasons then you just dismiss them.

    You were serious?? ???.right. Okay. I honestly thought you were joking. I mean I wrote that whole joke sketch about why they wouldn't free her and then you come along with this lazy Calamari who forgot his sunblock and it was funnier than anything I said.
    But, you're serious?.. right, well, I don't know what to say to that. I don't mean to be rude, but the TOS means that I can't really say my honest response, it's just so ??. not-sensible.
  2. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "Again, by default, one assumes that the story has internal logic."

    "It should have internal logic, but you've already admitted it doesn't - remember Padme."


    Touche'

    "Let's review a few issues. Shmi is free, but homeless. How do you get the money to pay for a house?"

    "JJ was homeless too."


    Let's also not forget Shmi's other alternative - she got married. Secondly, Shmi was bought by Watto for a reason. Do you think she would still be his slave if she wasn't capable of doing some work? It's like you expect people to have high school degrees to find work on Tatooine - "a hive of villainy and scum."

    "All of which are good reasons for freeing her, not leaving her in slavery.
    JJ had all those problems and more, but you ignore that.
    Shmi was a healthy, intelligent, brave woman, all your above 'concerns' sound more like political spin to dodge the issue."


    Agreed. Talk about ignoring the Holocaust. Following your logic, why bother freeing all the Jews, since they already lost their homes and wealth to the Nazis, so there was no place for them to live, and no way to pay for food, counseling, etc. Not to mention the fact that no other country wanted them (we certainly weren't going to bring ALL of them back to the US.)

    Thank God the US didn't have the mindset you expect of the Jedi.
  3. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    Finally, for her to come ot Corsucant would mean a disruption of her life, whereas she would hypothetically be less inconvienced if they were to come to her.

    Except for the minor inconvenience of remaining in slavery. !

    Another option would be to negotiate something where she came to Coruscant for a few days without being freed, that could possibly save some money.

    That is priceless. Absolutely priceless!
    Rather than free her they try and find a way for her to come to Coruscant without freeing her, just to save money.!!


    Oh I'd love to see that in the movie, it would be hilarious. , Mace could write her a letter:

    Dear Miss Skywalker,
    Thanks for all your help , risking your son's life and all. We'd like you to come to Coruscant for a few days, we'd like to interview you and have some doctors and Archivists talk to you.
    Coruscant is on the map.

    You'll have to pay your own fare as we're trying to save money and you don't meet our focus cost requirements.

    Yours ,
    Mace Windu.



    And then Shmi would have to ask Watto to let her go to Coruscant for a few days and remove the explosive device from her neck .

    Watto : Yeah sure, Shmi, take a few days off, I'll take the explosive out. Now you promise you'll return and let me put it back in.

    Shmi : Of course.

    Watto: Oh and here's some money to buy a ticket to Coruscant.




    Essentially, opportunity cost is the value of the best alternative not taken. You want to take the choice with the lowest possible opportunity cost, also known as making the best choice available. This is because logically, if you truly picked the best option possible, then its value should by definition be greater than that of the second-best option.

    Freeing Shmi from slavery is by definition of greater value than leaving her in slavery.

    Whereas when Mace talks to Palpatine in AOTC, he says essentially that it is a better use of resources for the Jedi not to be counted on as an army ("we're keepers of the peace, not soldiers"). In that way, they do seem to be conscious of how they're using their resources.

    Yeah, Mace is talking about if War breaks out there isn't enough of them to protect the Republic, that's exactly the point I made ages ago - if freeing Shmi required huge resources I'd have some sympathy with your position, but it doesn't.


    You however, seem to draw many of your examples of how Jedi behave from Qui-Gon Jinn and the OT. I would submit that these are invalid, however. TPM was very clear in establishing the fact that Qui-Gon was atypical of the Order, and he was in fact the most rebellious Jedi we've seen in the Saga. Similarly, what happens in the OT is all after the Order has been destroyed, and there are only two survivors. Clearly, how we can expect two former members of the Order to act is not necessarily how we'd expect the Order to act in it's glory days.

    Tut tut [face_shame_on_you] . You're an uneducated outsider, you can't decide how they act.
    Funny - you expect us to ignore the behaviour of the Jedi in the films and instead sit there thinking about Focus Costs as their typical behaviour.

    Secondly - you don't like 'atypical' factors but you're happy to cite the incident where Mace talks about not having enough Jedi to keep the peace if war breaks out, that certainly isn't a typical situation.



    Under a strictly rewards based system, you get rewarded for results only. However, this isn't really a valid example, since home from downtown in one's hometown is a different result than home from a hostile third world nation, and that would be taken into account even in a rewards based system.

    Yeah, that's the point.
    You were the one that said: " The results count,
    not the effort" , the result is the same - the person got home.


    This is more like someone crashing their car, and rather than using the OnStar service they already have, they decide to get a local to help them out. Yes, it would be appreciated, but its still not really
  4. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Okay, but at least you now know why Anakin didn't rescue Shmi before Episode II, rigt?
  5. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Because Lucas didn't want him to...



    ...even though most little boys would have at least brought it up.
  6. TrueJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2000
    star 5
    I think this will be less of an issue as long as it doesn't relate to Anakin joining the Darkside. If it has anything to do with him joining the Darkside then alot of fans are going to be questioning the wisdom of Lucas not letting Anakin go get his mother.
  7. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    God, I love these threads. [face_laugh]
  8. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
  9. dark_charlie Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2004
    star 4
    "I think this will be less of an issue as long as it doesn't relate to Anakin joining the Darkside."

    what???

    of course it relates, it has everything to do with it, yoda even forseen it in episode 1.

    its all about the boy and his mother, her death brougth a lot of pain to anakin, pain he will not easily let go... this will scar him for the rest of his life.

    in episode 2 after he loses shmi, if you pay atention to his lines, you will see that there´s not only anger and frustation, but madness too.

    at least that´s what i think.

    cheers
  10. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    I?m going to have to depart from our usual style this time, because I think some very serious issues that are being raised that need to be addressed outside of quotes. A few are detailed explanations of important but oft misunderstood arguments of mine, while most others have simply to do with the fact that we?re having a debate. After that, I?ll post again addressing the last few things normally. Please take note that each of these major arguments will have, just following them section called ?references.? That?s where you can find the quotes that I feel hint at the larger issue I?m addressing in that point.

    1. Initial Assumptions
    As much as we?d like to think otherwise, it is almost impossible to ?assume nothing.? It is the very nature of humanity to use our past experiences to help us create responses to new situations. We all perceive things through our own special lenses, our perspective shaped by our own special prejudices and preferences. So rather than following this deceptively simple mantra, we instead try to be conscious of the assumptions we make going into something. We try to ensure that the initial assumptions we make are reasonable, so that we can be confident in what we conclude based off of them.

    Now, in this case, there is only one relevant issue we need to make an initial assumption about: the coherency of Lucas?s storytelling. The Saga, by-and-large, either has or lacks logical plot progression. The story either makes sense or it doesn?t. In order to proceed with this discussion, we have to pick one of these two options as our initial assumption. It seems to me that one would be hard pressed to argue that the majority of the Star Wars films are completely illogical. By contrast, we have lots of evidence that suggests our initial assumption should be that the Saga does have narrative cohesion/a logical plot progression. For instance, the order we view the films in, and even which parts of each film we view in what order, changes our perception of the Saga. Further, it is almost self-evident, since clearly the movies were comprehensible to everyone on these boards. Even the name plot hole suggests that gaps in coherent storytelling are the exception, and not the rule. Therefore, I think it most reasonable to make an initial assumption that the story in the Star Wars Saga does, in fact, make sense.

    Reference: ?Lucas doesn?t forget this kind of stuff? comment, ?doesn?t automatically make sense? comment, et cetera

    2. Burden of Proof
    While this assumption does not mean plot holes don?t exist, it means they are the exception, rather than the rule. As such, there existence must be proved, and that beyond a reasonable doubt. This is similar to statistics, where results have to be strong enough to overcome the possibility that you got them by chance. Or again, like science, where you must have evidence in order to credibly challenge and overturn an existing theory. Another example is the justice system, were you must (in societies were innocence is assumed) prove beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of a person, or else they go free, or (in societies were guilt is assumed) provide a substantial enough alibi and evidence that the court is convinced of the person?s innocence.

    In our case, you are the one challenging the initial assumption. You?re the one who believe there is a plot hole. And so the burden of proof falls on you, not on me. While my only obligation is to maintain reasonable doubt, you must prove beyond this same reasonable doubt that the thing you claim is a plot hole is, in fact, one.

    Reference: ?Double standard? comments

    3. Quality of Proof
    There are a few issues with this. The foremost of which being humor is not a rebuttal. Whether you would find something humorous or not has nothing to do with the quality of the argument. The questions are, is it reasonable, logical, well supported, and does it cast reasonable doubt on the claim that this incident is a plot hole? Often times you choose to answer none, and instead make a
  11. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Look at the extent one must go to, to show that there isn't a plot hole. [face_laugh]

    'nuf said...
  12. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Look at the exent we have to go to explain something to you guys that we were able to pick up on our first viewing.
  13. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Yes, in one viewing you were able to pick up the fact that little Annie waves goodbye to his mother and never again brings up the subject of ever going back for her.

    He must have loved her very much. :)
  14. Jedimancer Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2004
    star 2
    Since when was it said he never mentioned going back to her again? I'm sure he did. In Episode II, when Anakin says he doesn't sleep well anymore, Obi-Wan says, "Because of your mother." I think this infers they've spoken about her before. Anakin did love his Mom, but he'd probably been working pretty much non-stop as a Jedi. It's the same principle as Han not paying off Jabba for a few years, as stated earlier in this thread.
  15. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    Edit: Beat me to it!

    Who says he never brought it up? Judging by the time in AOTC when Anakin tells Obi-Wan about the dreams he had been having and Obi-Wan guessed they were about his mother, it would seem that this wasn't a new topic between them. The Jedi Order forbids attatchments, so until he passed the trials, he wouldn't be allowed to go back to see her. When Anakin left her in TPM, it was only after she told him "don't look back".

    Anakin planned on returning as a Jedi to free the slaves, but he hadn't become a Jedi soon enough. That'e part of the reason he says it's all Obi-Wan's fault for "holding him back".
  16. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    Look at the extent one must go to, to show that there isn't a plot hole.

    The funny part is, most of that post wasn't about refuting that it was a plot hole, but about refuting some of the logical flaws being used here. In fact, you pretty much proved one of the points in there by ignoring the whole thing with a smarmy comment that had nothing to do with the post and an emoticon. This topic isn't, and hasn't been for a long time, about discussion, but about "winning".
  17. DARTH-FURBABY Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 2
    "Yes, in one viewing you were able to pick up the fact that little Annie waves goodbye to his mother and never again brings up the subject of ever going back for her."

    "He must have loved her very much."

    I don't remember seeing Ani wave goodbye to his mother. What I remember seeing is Ani getting excited about leaving Tatooine and yelling 'yipee', then pausing to ask if his mom was coming also. He then looks sad when it becomes apparent to him that she wouldn't be. Shmi then tries to comfort him by saying that she is where she belongs, but that Anakin must now go and make his dreams come true. Also Anakin runs back to his mother and tells her 'I just can't do it' meaning he can't leave her behind, then also promises her that he'll come back to free her. Shmi then tells Ani to be brave and to not look back, then turns him around and pushes him away. Ani obeys his mother and doesn't look back. Anakin later makes it plain to Padme and the Jedi Council that he misses his mother. This doesn't sound to me like an unnatural son who left his mother and never thought of her again!
    As for freeing her before AOTC, the only thing I can say is that if he had been able to, he would have.
  18. Darth_Meul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2004
    star 3
    The funny part is, most of that post wasn't about refuting that it was a plot hole, but about refuting some of the logical flaws being used here. In fact, you pretty much proved one of the points in there by ignoring the whole thing with a smarmy comment that had nothing to do with the post and an emoticon. This topic isn't, and hasn't been for a long time, about discussion, but about "winning".

    Agreed. That's why I don't care anymore to make long rebuttals. It's all about "winning", not "explaining". Because if you explain, the discussion goes in circular ways, not forwards. Biggest problem is that detractors always concentrate on shooting down assumptions, while their whole argument is based on one. In each iteration, more baggage needs to be included because of trivialities that get thrown in the mix. Finally, the number of pages in the thread go beyond one decimal, posts grow longer, which allows the opportunity to state "look how much pages/text it takes to explain, it's definitely a flaw". Meh. Hats off for the post(s) of Jabba-Wocky ...
  19. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    I apologize if I came across as "smarmy". I thought I was responding to Go-Mer's 'tone' with a bit of the same.

    Apparently, it's okay for Go-Mer to imply that other posters aren't as smart as he is, but I'm not allowed to be facetious in my response. :confused:

    Go-Mer: Look at the exent we have to go to explain something to you guys that we were able to pick up on our first viewing.

    LLS: Yes, in one viewing you were able to pick up the fact that little Annie waves goodbye to his mother and never again brings up the subject of ever going back for her.

    He must have loved her very much. :)


    (If he brought it up at all during the last HOUR of TPM, I missed it. And the difference between admitting that you miss your mother and making an effort on her behalf is the difference between complaining that you're thirsty, and making the effort to get a glass of water.)

    At any rate, my point was this. Can any of you honestly say that in real life, you would accept leaving your mother in slavery because of obstacles like...

    ...a code which doesn't yet apply to you forbids you to care about what happens to your mother? (Remember, the Council rejects the boy until the very end of the film)

    ...you don't have local currency to pay for her? (Is this really an insurmountable problem?)

    ...you could raise the funds with the help of your newfound, powerful, political friends, but you morally object to the slave-owner profiting? (That's another of the rationalizations presented in this thread.)

    See, you can go into long explanations RATIONALIZING why it was IMPOSSIBLE for Anakin to do anything for his mother, but the truth is...

    ...it wasn't impossible. Shmi's dilemma shouldn't be all that difficult to resolve, but doing so makes Anakin's story a little less tragic. THAT is the reason Shmi remains a slave. The actual obstacles in the story are hardly insurmountable.

    I have to say that for a 'gifted' child, Anakin's PROBLEM-SOLVING SKILLS gets a failing grade, when it comes to something as simple as seeing that Watto gets paid off so his mother can be FREE for the rest of her life.

    Lucas is juggling 'A FUN SPACE ADVENTURE' with 'A TRAGIC STORY'...

    ...but with little Jake Lloyd emoting sadness for twenty seconds and then...

    *sound of grinding gears*

    ...acting 'spunky' while accompanied by happy, cheerful music, I don't really feel much sympathy.

    It reminds me of the same awkward shifting of emotional gears when Anakin chokes up speaking over his mother's grave. A minute later, we get Anakin grinning happily (again accompanied by cheerful music) as Padme announces that they're off on a new adventure to rescue Obi-Wan.

    Wait a minute! I'm still feeling the sadness of Shmi's funeral, but apparently Anakin's already put it behind him.

    Why?

    Because we're rushed from the sadness of a tragic funeral back to the 'EXCITING ADVENTURE'.

    That's okay. That's STAR WARS. But I would point out that in ANH, Luke didn't give us a big grin accompanied by happy music minutes after finding his aunt and uncle dead. The somber mood carried on through the next several scenes.

    Don't get me wrong. I'm not attacking this story. I enjoy it. I'm not suggesting Lucas change it. I'm only responding to the defensive arguments of people similar to those that would rationalize that Gilligan and the Professor really couldn't get off the island because etc, etc.
  20. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    To Hydronium and the others: I can't tell you how good it is to be gratified by your recognition. Even if I didn't reach those I was debatign against, the fact that other people recognize what's really going on here makes me feel good. I thank you.

    love-slave: I think they were talking more to MeBe than to you. However, for what it's worth, I'll openly admit I would've liked to seen Anakin feel more sadness at being separated from his mother. At the same time, though, I don't expect a young child to have the kind of knowledge of the world and critical thinking skills that would be required to come up with a solution like "using the political leverage of his new found friends."
  21. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Jabba-wocky, I wasn't sure if "smarmy" was directed at me, but I responded on the chance that it was.

    I come to these boards because I like to read others' opinions, and sometimes express my own. You could say that I come here because I enjoy the company of you guys, even when we see things differently.

    Occasionally, my wise-cracks don't translate well in print. I hate the thought that someone might be genuinely hurt or offended by anything I say here.

    After all, we're talking about Star Wars. If we weren't enjoying the discussion on some level, there wouldn't be much point in participating in it, would there?

    Back to your comments about Anakin, I understand what you getting at regarding his youth and lack of sophistication, but I guess I expect a kid who is capable of winning a pod race against professional racers, and effectively ending the invasion of a PLANET by single-handedly destroying the invaders' mothership, to apply more effort than he does in seeking a solution to his mother's problem.

    I guess that's one of the qualities that I accept about Star Wars. It's a mixed bag. I mean, sometimes the drama feels 'real world' and sometimes it's 'way out there'. Sometimes it can make you roll your eyes, and other times it can bring a tear to them.

    I still love it, and as I said, I'm not suggesting Lucas needs to change anything. I just think this topic is an interesting one. :)
  22. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "This topic isn't, and hasn't been for a long time, about discussion, but about "winning". "

    I would agree, which might explain why people who seem to think there isn't a problem with the plot of the story feel the need to point out to others that they are wrong when they state otherwise. As Go-mer would surely agree, it goes both ways.

    Do please tell me, exactly, what alternate outcome you would have been expecting from such a "discussion".

    "Since when was it said he never mentioned going back to her again? I'm sure he did."

    See, that's the funny thing. You are pointing to what would be an obvious, if off-screen reaction of Anakin's character, and I would agree completely. Unfortunately, the on-screen reactions I see at the end of TPM is a bunch of happy people celebrating freedom, and completely forgetting about Shmi, the mother who gave up so much so that her son would be in a position to help people - like saving an entire planet. Would you believe I've received responses diminishing Anakin's role in the battle, focusing more on what Padme did? In THIS thread, I've got people telling me what bad, bad people the Jedi are. Call me silly, but I was under the impression that the Jedi are the good guys.

    I understand why Lucas wanted Padme's character to stay on Tatooine. I really, really do. I simply believe that, in terms of writing, his method to her character was much more calloused than anything the Jedi have ever done to her, on-screen or off. Obviously Lucas, and therefore Go-mer, believed it was done well enough, and that's fine, but I do not. You go right on creating all the off-screen interpretations you want, but as a character, Shmi was ignored with no afterthought after Anakin left Tatooine in TPM, and then brought back for a cameo in AOTC. I was much more impressed with her character in the novels than I was from the movies, because there was a far better attempt to create the emotional connection between Anakin and his mother, as well as show the affects of her situation on Anakin. The movie's rendition paled in comparison.
  23. gezvader28 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2003
    star 4
    While this assumption does not mean plot holes don?t exist, it means they are the exception, rather than the rule. As such, there existence must be proved, and that beyond a reasonable doubt. This is similar to statistics, where results have to be strong enough to overcome the possibility that you got them by chance. Or again, like science, where you must have evidence in order to credibly challenge and overturn an existing theory. Another example is the justice system, were you must (in societies were innocence is assumed) prove beyond a reasonable doubt the guilt of a person, or else they go free..

    This isn't a court of law, and you aren't a legal expert in 'Cinematic Narrative Laws', so don't give me any of this pseudo-legal stuff. Your credentials in this area are as bogus as your Jedi Membership Card.

    And quite frankly I'm getting tired of you arrogantly telling me that I have to "prove beyond reasonable doubt" etc. while you only have to "cast doubt", talk about moving the goal posts [/rolls eyes]. It is not up to you to decide on the rules of this debate, altho obviously it's convenient for you to do so since you can't make sense of your arguments.

    There are a few issues with this. The foremost of which being humor is not a rebuttal.

    Wrong. Humor can be a very powerful rebuttal, it can puncture pomposity and satirise to demonstrate the inherent absurdity of an argument or idea.
    And I have done that.
    Your ideas - such as - the Calamari Jedi who couldn't be bothered to free Shmi because he wanted to go home, and the one about the Jedi inviting Shmi to Coruscant and expecting her to return to slavery are silly and I have said so and why.
    Jedi are not lazy and stupid, your arguments require them to be.

    You also seem to object to the fact that I threw out Jedi behavior in the OT as evidence for how the PT Jedi would respond to something.

    [face_laugh] You're the one throwing out PT Jedi behaviour and OT behaviour.

    You can?t learn about PT Jedi by watching OT Jedi anymore than you can learn about ancient Babylon by watching CNN stories on present-day Iraq.

    What a ridiculous comparison.
    You can learn a lot more about the Jedi by watching the films than you can by listening to your confused theories about 'Resource Management' and 'Opportunity Costs'.

    I would remind you that one plot hole is by no means evidence of the existence of others. So why you continue to cite them as if they are is beyond me.

    The I suggest you read your and my posts a bit more clearly. You're the one claiming that Lucas doesn't make such mistakes:

    "then we know that by default it must have been part of their Code.
    Because if not, Lucas would have made that point."

    And clearly that's not true, he does make mistakes.

    That is, the Jedi?s actions are dictated by their interpretation of the Jedi Code. It is their modus operandi. So when one looks at the actions of a Jedi, one is actually looking at the interpretation of the Jedi Code. Similarly, when one predicts the action of a Jedi, one is complicity making an interpretation of the Jedi Code.

    There you go again Tut-tut [face_shame_on_you] you're an 'uneducated outsider'. And where is this 'Code' you're constantly referring to, what does it say?

    That means, implicitly, that you are making an interpretation of the Jedi Code and insisting that yours is the only possible correct one

    No, I'm saying that based on their portrayal in the films (rememebr the films) I can't see why they didn't free her especially when there were various very good reasons to do so.
    Your attempts to explain why they didn't have been wholly inadequate, you've claimed it's all to do with 'management resources' and proceeded to make a complete mess of your theories - you insist that losing the price of a clone army isn't such a bad thing, that they should invite her to Coruscant but send her back to slavery merely because they want to save money etc. etc. You've got staff working for the Jedi so busy looking at 'Opportunity Costs' th
  24. Go-Mer-Tonic Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 1999
    star 6
    People make hard choices like this all the time, and they sometimes regret those choices.

    Anakin simply blames everyone else for his choice.

    The fact that it wasn't an easy choice is part of what makes this so true to life.
  25. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Look at the extent one must go to, to show that there isn't a plot hole.

    Look at the extent one must go to to create a plot hole.

    What is the plot hole, anyway? I mean, I know I'm just a prequel fan, which in your estimation means I don't know what a quality movie is and prefer style over substance, so please explain the plot hole.

    Because Lucas didn't want him to...

    ...even though most little boys would have at least brought it up.


    How do you know he didn't?

    What good would it have done him if he did? How, exactly, would he have freed her? When? With what money? Republic credits weren't any good on Tatooine, remember, even if he had them, which he didn't (possession was forbidden to Jedi), or if he could've gotten them from the Senate, which was highly unlikely.

    Could he have asked the Jedi to free her, or the Senate? Sure. But why would they? Shmi said the Republic didn't exist on Tatooine. That is, they didn't care enough to enforce anti-slavery laws.

    You see, I am not taking the position of defending the actions, or non-actions, of the Jedi or the Senate. I am taking the position of explaining their inaction, in the context of the story.

    The Senate and the Jedi are stagnant and corrupt. They don't care about a backwater planet like Tatooine, let alone the slaves on it. They barely cared about Naboo either, only getting minimally involved. Padmé had to take matters into her own hands to save her people.

    Anyway, it's part and parcel of Anakin's eventual fall that he didn't keep his promise to his mother. He's riddled with guilt as well as grief when she dies. He failed her. He'll never forgive himself, and that provides another nudge toward the Dark Side.
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