why didnt anakin rescue shmi before?

Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by dark_charlie, May 2, 2004.

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  1. Leias_love_slave Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2003
    star 5
    Look at the extent one must go to to create a plot hole.

    Actually, I can't speak for others, but in previous posts I've said I don't consider it a plot hole. Personally, I just consider it an element of the story that the viewer has to take at face value...

    ...like ANH ending with Han having the funds to pay off Jabba, but a couple of years later when ESB picks up the story, he still hasn't gotten around to it...

    ...or allowing a character as incompetent as Jar Jar to participate in the senate.

    You can rationalize these things away, but to insist they make ABSOLUTE SENSE is disingenuous.


    How do you know he didn't [bring up freeing his mother after leaving Tatooine]?

    If you're suggesting that at any time between leaving Tatooine and celebrating at the end of TPM, Anakin did ask Padme, Qui-Gon or Yoda if anything could be done to help his mother, it would have been nice to see it on-screen.

    Instead, we get a scene of Anakin presenting Padme with a necklace, and a scene of Anakin admitting to the Council that he misses his mother but still not raising the question of helping her. At the end of the film we get a big celebration. Anakin has just saved THE ENTIRE PLANET. At this point, do you think he's entitled to ask a favor of his good friend Padme, the QUEEN OF THE PLANET?

    Well, if he did ask Padme, I'd be curious to hear how she shot him down. Do you think that refusing to help the woman who sacrificed a lot to help them all get to the party might put a damper on Anakin's 'crush'?

    What good would it have done him if he did?

    I'm suggesting that it would have been nice to see him make some kind of effort...like opening his mouth and asking.

    First you suggest that he did...OFF-CAMERA.

    Then you suggest it's pointless for him to even try.

    THERE IS A POINT IN TRYING. It would have conveyed to the audience that Anakin was AS EAGER to help his mother as he had been to help strangers earlier in the film.

    How, exactly, would he have freed her? When? With what money?

    This is why the debate here is circular. These very questions keep being asked and answered.

    How, exactly, would he have freed her?

    Watto is a greedy junk dealer. He just lost 'everything' betting on the pod race. Do you think he doesn't have a price? Do you think he would stay broke out of spite when a grateful Naboo could easily offer him enough to replace everything he had lost and more?

    If an important dignitary was visiting Naboo, would people be asking "Where's the money going to come from to house and feed him?" Of course not.

    So how about the government of Naboo spending a little to show gratitude and appreciation for everything Anakin and his mother have done for them?

    Republic credits weren't any good on Tatooine...

    This is why I abandoned my mother in the Arizona desert fourteen years ago. A bus came along and I had bus fare for myself but unfortunately all Mom had was Canadian bills. I wonder what the old girl is up to these days. ;)

    Seriously, Shelley, do you really think 'local currency' would be an insurmountable problem that would leave someone in slavery for years and years? You don't think Padme could pull a few strings and arrange to have some valuables exchanged for local currency to pay Watto?

    On the other hand, I wouldn't want them to go to too much trouble. It's only Shmi, the woman who took them in when they were in trouble and even helped them get home.

    Could he have asked the Jedi to free her, or the Senate? Sure. But why would they?

    Could he ask the Queen of the planet he just saved? Did he?

    You see, I am not taking the position of defending the actions, or non-actions, of the Jedi or the Senate. I am taking the position of explaining their inaction, in the context of the story.

    I'm taking the position that I have have no problem with a story about a child being freed from bondage but forced to leave his mother behind. That sounds like a tear-jerker.

    I just wish Lucas had given me
  2. DARTH-FURBABY Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 9, 2004
    star 2
    "I just would have preferred to see bigger barriers to Shmi's freedom than 'Naboo can't break a twenty."

    I'm thinking that for Ani, Qui-gon had the last word. "I tried to free your mother Ani, but Watto wouldn't have it." Admittedly, Qui-gon didn't have the money ("no pod is worth 2 slaves, not by a long shot"), but to Ani, I would imagine Qui-gon's words conveyed the idea that freeing his mother was impossible, period.

    Also, as I pointed out before, Shmi literally pushed Anakin away and told him to not look back.
    It certainly would have been a nice touch, story-wise if Padme, being Queen of Naboo and therefore having almost limitless resources, could have bought Shmi's freedom. But as we all know, in real life, good intentions often fall by the wayside as we encounter ever newer problems and responsibilities that demand our attention and none would have greater and more numberous problems, etc that the queen of an entire planet and later, a galactic senator!
  3. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Actually, I can't speak for others, but in previous posts I've said I don't consider it a plot hole. Personally, I just consider it an element of the story that the viewer has to take at face value...

    ...like ANH ending with Han having the funds to pay off Jabba, but a couple of years later when ESB picks up the story, he still hasn't gotten around to it...


    Right. There is a lot in SW, including the holy, sacred, perfect ESB, that doesn't make sense if you really examine it. However, this magically became inexcusable only with the prequels.

    ...or allowing a character as incompetent as Jar Jar to participate in the senate.

    Padmé thought he was competent enough to take her place. Whether that was a mistake is up to one's own personal feelings toward Jar Jar.

    You can rationalize these things away, but to insist they make ABSOLUTE SENSE is disingenuous.

    And there isn't a whole lot in SW that makes ABSOLUTE SENSE. To bash one thing for not making ABSOLUTE SENSE while having no problem with everything else is also disingenuous.

    If you're suggesting that at any time between leaving Tatooine and celebrating at the end of TPM, Anakin did ask Padme, Qui-Gon or Yoda if anything could be done to help his mother, it would have been nice to see it on-screen. Instead, we get a scene of Anakin presenting Padme with a necklace,

    And saying he misses his mother.

    and a scene of Anakin admitting to the Council that he misses his mother but still not raising the question of helping her.

    So it's not good enough that he misses her? He has to say, "Please save her" in order for you to think he cares?

    At the end of the film we get a big celebration. Anakin has just saved THE ENTIRE PLANET.

    No, the combined efforts of Anakin, Padmé, and the Gungans have saved THE ENTIRE PLANET.

    At this point, do you think he's entitled to ask a favor of his good friend Padme, the QUEEN OF THE PLANET?


    I'm suggesting that it would have been nice to see him make some kind of effort...like opening his mouth and asking.

    And again, I ask: him saying he missed his mother wasn't good enough for you?

    First you suggest that he did...OFF-CAMERA.

    Then you suggest it's pointless for him to even try.


    Yeah.

    THERE IS A POINT IN TRYING.

    AND HOW DO YOU KNOW HE DIDN'T TRY?

    Watto is a greedy junk dealer. He just lost 'everything' betting on the pod race. Do you think he doesn't have a price? Do you think he would stay broke out of spite when a grateful Naboo could easily offer him enough to replace everything he had lost and more?

    You ignored the question. With what money? Republic credits are useless on Tatooine.

    If an important dignitary was visiting Naboo, would people be asking "Where's the money going to come from to house and feed him?" Of course not.

    So how about the government of Naboo spending a little to show gratitude and appreciation for everything Anakin and his mother have done for them?


    What money would they have used?

    Seriously, Shelley, do you really think 'local currency' would be an insurmountable problem that would leave someone in slavery for years and years?

    No. I think that the apathy of the Jedi and the Republic was an insurmountable problem that would leave someone in slavery for years and years. I think people are expressing a huge double standard in that they are making a huge deal out of this when they don't make a big deal out of similar situations in the OT or other movies.

    ]I just wish Lucas had given me more ammo to defend the argument that Shmi CAN'T be helped.

    That isn't the argument he is making. The argument is that the Jedi and Senate are so corrupt that they do not care to do anything to free even one slave, let alone all of them.

    From what I see on-screen, taking a quick jaunt back to Tatooine and pouring a bucket of money

    What money?

    over Watto is a simple solution. Maybe if Shmi had been shipped off to parts unknown, it would be easier f
  4. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    "People make hard choices like this all the time, and they sometimes regret those choices.

    Anakin simply blames everyone else for his choice.

    The fact that it wasn't an easy choice is part of what makes this so true to life."


    Ah, so it wasn't so much all the Jedi's fault after all, eh?

    "Look at the extent one must go to to create a plot hole."

    Funny. My description on 6/18 2:53pm, was quite short. Any large posts I've made have been rebuttals to large posts attempting to explain away the problem.

    "How do you know he didn't?

    What good would it have done him if he did? How, exactly, would he have freed her? When? With what money? Republic credits weren't any good on Tatooine, remember, even if he had them, which he didn't (possession was forbidden to Jedi), or if he could've gotten them from the Senate, which was highly unlikely."


    Now I know you've not been reading this thread. This aspect has been explained over and over and over again. Go back and read...we'll wait for you to catch up.

    "The Senate and the Jedi are stagnant and corrupt. They don't care about a backwater planet like Tatooine, let alone the slaves on it. They barely cared about Naboo either, only getting minimally involved. Padmé had to take matters into her own hands to save her people."

    Now you accuse the Jedi of being on the same level as the Senate? [face_laugh]

    See what I mean, folks. The Jedi must be construed as "bad guys" for there not to be a plot whole. Unfortunately for you folks, the Jedi are the "good guys".

    "Anyway, it's part and parcel of Anakin's eventual fall that he didn't keep his promise to his mother. He's riddled with guilt as well as grief when she dies. He failed her. He'll never forgive himself, and that provides another nudge toward the Dark Side."

    Again, had you read through this thread, you would know I've stated this. The "character motivation" aspect of leaving Shmi on Tatooine isn't the problem, simply the way it was handled. When you understand that distinction, you will have a clear grasp of the problem.

    How do you know he didn't [bring up freeing his mother after leaving Tatooine]?

    If you're suggesting that at any time between leaving Tatooine and celebrating at the end of TPM, Anakin did ask Padme, Qui-Gon or Yoda if anything could be done to help his mother, it would have been nice to see it on-screen.
    "

    ...and if Shelley would have looked on this very page, she would know that I completely agree that Anakin doing this is a completely valid idea. Unfortunately, as LLS states, it is never shown.

    "I'm suggesting that it would have been nice to see him make some kind of effort...like opening his mouth and asking.

    First you suggest that he did...OFF-CAMERA.

    Then you suggest it's pointless for him to even try."


    I guess Shelley was really confused to as why Anakin would bother trying to save her in AOTC, then. I mean, really, "What good would it have done him if he did?", right, Shelley?

    It's funny how much you guys trip over yourselves and each other trying to explain all this away.

    "Seriously, Shelley, do you really think 'local currency' would be an insurmountable problem that would leave someone in slavery for years and years? You don't think Padme could pull a few strings and arrange to have some valuables exchanged for local currency to pay Watto?"

    I remember some of the counters to this...

    -Just because she's a queen, doesn't mean she has money.
    -The people would vote her out of office for wasting money/property on a slave
    -She would be arrested for buying a slave
    -She doesn't owe Shmi anything, just Anakin (wouldn't she owe Anakin his mom, though? ;) )
    -It's impossible to exchange republic and Tatooine credits
    -Credits aren't real money
    -Padme has too much to do over the ten years between TPM and AOTC to even think about Shmi (apparently making her a "bag guy" in the same vein as the Jedi, since she can't even remember the mother of the
  5. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    Funny. My description on 6/18 2:53pm, was quite short. Any large posts I've made have been rebuttals to large posts attempting to explain away the problem.

    Which problem?

    Now I know you've not been reading this thread. This aspect has been explained over and over and over again. Go back and read...we'll wait for you to catch up.

    OK.

    Now you accuse the Jedi of being on the same level as the Senate?

    No, the Jedi work for the Senate. How was I trying to suggest they were on the same level?

    See what I mean, folks. The Jedi must be construed as "bad guys" for there not to be a plot whole. Unfortunately for you folks, the Jedi are the "good guys".

    No, the Jedi, like the Senate, must be construed as what they are: stagnant and uncaring about matters such as slavery on a backwater planet.

    Again, had you read through this thread, you would know I've stated this. The "character motivation" aspect of leaving Shmi on Tatooine isn't the problem, simply the way it was handled. When you understand that distinction, you will have a clear grasp of the problem.

    I do understand the distinction, I just don't see why you are making such a huge deal about it. It seems to me that you are doing so only so you can have another excuse to bash the prequels, which indicates a double standard to me.

    ..and if Shelley would have looked on this very page, she would know that I completely agree that Anakin doing this is a completely valid idea. Unfortunately, as LLS states, it is never shown.

    Fair enough. Yes, it would've been nice to see it. However, maybe Anakin didn't mention it, which only adds to his already huge guilt.

    I guess Shelley was really confused to as why Anakin would bother trying to save her in AOTC, then.

    Because she was in immediate danger.

    I mean, really, "What good would it have done him if he did?", right, Shelley?

    What good did it do him, MeBeJedi? He raced there to save her, defying Obi Wan's strict orders, and she died anyway. He then slaughtered an entire tribe, thus pushing himself ever closer to the Dark Side.

    It's funny how much you guys trip over yourselves and each other trying to explain all this away.

    No funnier than how you guys trip over yourselves and each other trying to make a plot hole, and trying to convince yourself that movies you hate are worth spending so much time on.

    I remember some of the counters to this...

    -Just because she's a queen, doesn't mean she has money.


    She was an elected official, and I don't think elected officials have their own money. But anyway...

    -The people would vote her out of office for wasting money/property on a slave

    Eh?

    -She would be arrested for buying a slave

    No, she'd be arrested for stealing one, although said slave would get blown up.

    -She doesn't owe Shmi anything, just Anakin (wouldn't she owe Anakin his mom, though? )

    I suppose.

    -It's impossible to exchange republic and Tatooine credits

    How? Republic credits aren't any good on Tatooine. How would they exchange them?

    -Credits aren't real money
    -Padme has too much to do over the ten years between TPM and AOTC to even think about Shmi (apparently making her a "bag guy" in the same vein as the Jedi,


    No, not really. It makes her insensitive and too wrapped up in the larger picture to see the smaller one, just like the Jedi and the Senate.

    since she can't even remember the mother of the boy who gave up her son to save Naboo.

    She didn't really remember him, let alone his mother. To her, he was still the boy she knew on Tatooine.

    I wonder what they did on the annual anniversary of saving the entire planet for the past 10 years. Not to mention the fact that Padme had no problem vacationing on Naboo in the middle of a Senate crisis,

    She wasn't vacationing -- the Jedi told Anakin to take her to Naboo, where she'd be safer. Or did you miss that part, along with the part where there wer
  6. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    It is not up to you to decide on the rules of this debate.

    First off, there were only two of us in the debate. That has a tremendous amount of relevance in two manners. The first is assuming we are actually exchanging ideas, and not just talking at each other. That is, I am telling you what would be required for you to convince me that your position is correct. This makes sense because I am the only one on Earth that can tell you with absolutely certainty what my standards for convincing evidence are.

    Very simply, I noticed you had no problems whatsoever with point 1 of my post. But this is a direct result of that point! Burden of proof can only be decided by the initial assumptions made about a discussion. I?m open to hearing your suggestions about how we should proceed with this debate, but I see your current position as contradictory. Since point 2 emerged directly from point 1, I don?t see how its possible to be content with the fore while objecting to the latter. At least, not on any rational basis. You point out that the cards seem somewhat stacked?effectively they are. But that?s not because of any unfair bias, but from a logical progression that started with our initial assumptions. This is the second manner in which my statement is both reasonable and relevant. There?s nothing psuedo-legal about them, nor was that ever my intent. It?s up to you whether we go back to establishing initial assumptions, or you withdraw your claim of the invalidity of point 2, or reconcile the apparent contradiction.

    Humor can be a very powerful rebuttal, it can puncture pomposity and satirize to demonstrate the inherent absurdity of an argument or idea.

    I don?t appreciate being called pompous. What I?ve tried to be is logical?always important in debates?and avoid belittling others. Humor does not serve so well for either of these purposes. It was one said that there is no such thing as ?stand up journalism.? So I say too, that there is no such thing as ?stand up debate.? In fact, I assert that your objections would be taken more seriously (at least by me) if you focused on stating them clearly and seriously rather than being mocking about them.

    Jedi are not lazy and stupid, your arguments require them to be.

    First off, let?s tackle the Calamarian Jedi. Stupid had nothing to do with it. As for lazy, well you seem to confuse that with ?cautious about one?s health? and ?tired.? They are three entirely distinct concepts. Being tired is very valid, because it results from other work one has been doing. Being lazy means that you just have a general attitude of not liking to do work. Anyone who had the two confused in their case would most certainly feel insulted. As for the sun block thing, that?s valid too, as it still would pose a greater health risk to him with or without sunblock. In the same way, people with arthritis can just take pain medication to overcome the pain, but no one blames them if they don?t. I really can?t see how you could blame, in this theoretical instance, a creature that doesn?t have a skin type compatible with hot arid climates for not wanting to spend time in a hot, arid climate.

    What a ridiculous comparison.

    A more extreme example, yes. But projecting backwards is still projecting backwards, and its still not valid. And as for summarily throwing out behavioral examples, I always give reasoning behind it. I have never though, thrown out the whole of PT Jedi behavior, or even the greater part of it. I threw out Qui-Gon?s behavior, with the very valid reason that he was noted within the film itself as the exception, rather than the rule. AS for my theories, don?t confuse the fact that you are confused about them with their clarity. If they are unclear, it is because I have not finished expounding them yet, I would appreciate if you gave me that chance.

    And clearly that's not true, he does make mistakes.

    I suggest you read points 1 and 2 of my last post again. You?ve completely misrepresented me. One specific instance was being discussed in
  7. dark_charlie Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2004
    star 4
    i dont even read my own thread anymore.

    its redundant.... i always wanted to say that :)
  8. Darth_Meul Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 4, 2004
    star 3
    I think, in essence, it comes down to this:

    Schmi tells Anakin her future is on Tatooine, and that he shouldn't look back - she assures him that eventually, they'll see eachother again. Anakin promises he will come back to free her. However, the Jedi Code doesn't approve of personal attachment, a rule that almost costs him his acceptance into the Order. Young Anakin must have realised how close he came to not being trained, and accepts the Code wholeheartedly.

    Always under the watchful eye of Obi-Wan, his hidden ambition to free his mother takes a backseat for achieving the rank of Jedi Knight. She's no longer the center of his life; his motherfigure has been replaced with a strict fatherfigure. By becoming a Jedi Knight, he'll earn respect, won't be under strict scrutiny from a certain Obi-Wan, and be able to take some matters in his own rebellious hands, like visiting & freeing his mother.

    This is all within the confines of the story as laid out by TPM & AOTC, and for me, it works within the context of this fantasy epic. Now, for fun, let's see why Padme didn't free Schmi. As little Annie got her highnessness from Tatooine, she owed him one. However, Anakin's mishaps in the battle of Naboo prevented the total annihilation of the Gungans, making Anakin owe the galaxy, and by definition, Padme. As such, the score between the two was settled, so it was now up to Anakin again to free Schmi.

    [face_whistling]
  9. openmind Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    DM, just to be exact, its Shmi. (from the Hindu name of Lakshmi) :)








  10. Jabba-wocky Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2003
    star 8
    6. The Truth About Qui-Gon

    I recently did move to eliminate Qui-Gon?s behavior as an example of what we should expect of Jedi. This was done for the very practical reason that he was cited within TPM as being rebellious, and very much an atypical Jedi. Not only is this a reasonable claim, but contrary to your accusations, it is not at all contradictory to what I said earlier. I have never claimed, nor do I ever forsee claiming, that Qui-Gon was a perfect example of the PT Jedi. What I said was, and I quote:

    ?Instead, all the Jedi we've seen have been earnest, if sometimes arrogant or detached. Qui-gon is another perfect example of what I'm talking about. Yes, he is a rebel, and his disagreements probably cause some operational problems within the Order. However, his heart is very much in the right place.?

    As you can see here, this was clearly part of our discussion about how problems can exist in the Order without the Order being ?bad.? I think Qui-gon is still very much representative of this trend I was discussing. This trend, however, is not the same thing as the PT Jedi, although that organization to some degree demonstrates this trend in other ways, as previously dicussed.

    7. The False Analogy Jar-Jar

    Many have claimed it was not a problem for Shmi to be homeless since Jar-Jar was also homeless. However, I would note several differences in their situations. First of, Naboo is a lush tropical world, whereas Tatooine is a desert where even moisture has to be harvested as an agricultural product. This is indicative of the fact that it would be much harder to survive unsupported on Tatooine than on Naboo. But we should also consider the divergent nature of human and Gungan culture. The Gungans have always maintained very close ties with nature, live in tight-knit communities, and seem to engage in what is close to a barter economy. This means Jar-Jar?s being homeless would require relatively few changes in his lifestyle. Padme, on the other hand, lives in a human society, and would have to compete in a capitalist society that distances itself considerably from nature. This means that for her, the adjustments required to live homeless are much greater. I can go into more detail here if you like, but this is the general outline. Its a much harder thing for Shmi to be homeless than for Jar-Jar to be homeless. And further, your example doesn?t even help you that much, since Qui-Gon saw that Jar-Jar was fully reinstated back into his society. If he did the same for Shmi, as you suggest, then everything I said would apply after all (counseling, housing, job training, etc).

    8. Coincidental Help

    This means going above and beyond your assigned mission just to help someone out. As such, the Jedi don?t have any obligation to do it. They are free to make whatever call they would like to, at whatever time they want. We see this played out several times during TPM, one of my primary sources for my viewpoint on this issue. Let?s first take a look at your quote, though:
    ?This isn't Schroedinger's Cat we're talking about, we have plenty of further information - she's a slave, she risked all to help them, the Jedi are against slavery. The Jedi do good things, they help people etc. etc., you seem to be forgetting about all of this.?

    I would disagree with you. Since there is no invalid reason for not participating in coincidental help (outside of violating the Code, ex. because of attachments or something) then essentially you would have to get inside the mind of the Jedi in question. Since there?s no way to know what a particular Jedi would think on any particular mission, it essentially is Schroedinger?s Cat. After all, look at TPM. When they meet Jar-Jar, Qui-Gon wants to help and Kenobi acts like he doesn?t want to (?another pitiful life form.?) Neither of them is wrong, and both were considering the same things. However, since it was coincidental help, one just felt like it and the other didn?t.

    So how do we know that for whatever reason, the person who handles Shmi?s cas
  11. Anakin_Skywalker314 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2004
    star 1
    i think that ani just felt he couldnt... arrogant yes... rash yes... but he knew what he was... and that he just couldnt leave ansion or padme or obiwan at the time...he wanted to do his duty. i think thats why he said "i know i could have" like he thought about it before.....

    OR i think that he maybe had never had the nightmares with her in pain... i mean hes been having visions of her and dreams since he built his light saber... ("Jedi Quest")... maybe seeing her in pain is what made him finally decide to go. he felt that obiwan was hiolding him back... "dreams pass in time" like "oh dontworry about it."
  12. DL2112 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2004
    Possibly, Anakin was afraid to go back or Obi - Wan didn't let him go.
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