CT Why didn't Luke attempt to kill the Emperor before electrocuting him?

Wow. The stories are eerily similar.

Luke's decision does still bother me too, but I'm trying to accept it for what it is. And hey, everyone makes mistakes, and I guess Luke's mistake was not totally thinking things through.

 

Are you withdrawing?

I don't like to think that Luke became a renowned leader before ESB just because he was strong with the Force and didn't think things through. What we saw in ROJ suggested that he had thought every other thing through:

• felt he was endangering the mission because Vader could feel him > separates from the group so Vader will find him but not them
• let's himself be captured in order to meet Vader and turn him around or at least run away with Luke > doesn't work
• is brought before the Emperor but already plans for himself to be a tool of distraction so his friends can carry out their mission > doesn't work
• is made angry by the Emperor and tries to kill him > doesn't work
• uses the duel to be working on his father again

It's only when he tosses his lightsaber away that he apparently has no plan left. Either the safety of Leia is no longer a priority or he just hopes they are doing alright down there without him.

 

What exactly makes you think that nothing good could have came out of his attitude in that situation?

Luke gave himself up so that he could save his father and if that wouldn't work right away, keep him and the Emperor occupied so the Rebels could take out the Death Star. This is pretty obvious everytime he talks to Vader and in his short answer to the Emperor in which he declares that he will soon die, as will the Emperor.

There is zero reason to suspect that him throwing away his lightsaber was automatically going to have bad consequences for his sister, his friends and everyone else. He didn't want to turn, and only the thought that the Emperor and Vader could try it with Leia made him snap for a moment. Once he's calm again, he gives his father the perfect example of what it means to be a Jedi and how much he cares for his father. He shows that you can stand up to the Emperor and not do his bidding, choosing your own path and standing up for it. Nothing good could come out of it? it was the best possible thing he could do. There was no way for him to kill the Emperor on his own, any attempt to do so was doomed to fail. His approach was the only one that could have caused Anakin to turn against his master. Everything else would have seen Vader stick with Palpatine. It's only when Luke refuses to kill his own father, telling Palpatine that he has failed, and Palpatine trying to kill Luke in return, that Anakin finds the strength to do what he should have done a long time ago. Alongside the rebels simply destroying the Death Star with everyone still on board, it was the only way to take out the Emperor.

Killing the Emperor was never part of any plan. The idea was to take down the shield and destroy the Death Star. Luke ignored the plan to some extent to find his father and try to turn him back to the light, but even that part didn't really involve visiting the Emperor. As such, Luke not killing him cannot have the consequences you describe.

 

Luke had no idea that Vader would save him from the Emperor, nor was it his plan to intentionally be tortured by the Emperor in order to prod Vader into action. Luke has essentially given up hope in his father.

Here's a reason: There's a large chance that Vader doesn't save Luke by killing the Emperor, meaning that Luke would have died and the Emperor would have survived. And the Emperor is a huge threat to his friends and the Rebellion.

Does Luke know how powerful the Emperor truly is with the Force? Didn't he just admit that he was unarmed?

Luke was literally just watching the Alliance being defeated outside the Emperor's window. His faith that his friends will successfully blow up the Death Star is greatly reduced. Especially after the Emperor revealed that the whole thing was a trap.

Please explain why these ^ are wrong.

 

I think part of the challenge of living the Jedi life is knowing when to act and when not to. If I can quote The Byrds here, "To everything there is a season, and a time to every purpose under heaven... a time to kill, and a time to heal..." Luke had thoroughly tested the option of the time to kill and it didn't work out; no one was killed yet and he had narrowly avoided losing himself to the dark side. Since that hadn't worked at all, he tried the opposite tactic and tested if it was the time to heal. And in that instance, at that moment, laying down his weapon was the right thing to do. Those who are in tune with spirituality/the Force learn to sense which course to take at any given moment. Clearly, Luke had reached the stage of development where he could trust the guidance of the Force even when it seemed likely to get him killed. I expect that part of his faith was born in the trench run and grew much stronger after he survived falling out of Cloud City.

 

Good thread. My two cents; Luke knew the galaxy would be better off with him dead than with him aligned with the Dark Side, either of which he realized was the most likely outcome of an attempt to kill the Emperor. Palpatine told Luke that his faith in his friends was his weakness, when in actuality it was his strength. Despite initially being discouraged by Palpatine's words that their mission was doomed to fail, Luke had faith that they could continue to fight the good fight without him, especially now knowing that Leia was somewhat Force sensitive.

Kudos to the others for mentioning his trials and trusting in the Force. I would amend those to what I said.

Obi-Wan said there are alternatives to fighting, which Luke exemplified here.
Vader also said that the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force. Which implies in this instance that killing doesn't always have to be the way to thwart bad guys. Even though, that is what Vader did here. However, it was only Anakin's actions in tandem with Luke's that resulted in victory.

 

Because Richard Marquand stepped in and said "Whoa, Mark, Mark, MARK! Dave is supposed to pick up Ian, you stay on the ground in agony!"

 

Oissan wrote

Luke gave himself up so that he could save his father and if that wouldn't work right away, keep him and the Emperor occupied so the Rebels could take out the Death Star. This is pretty obvious everytime he talks to Vader and in his short answer to the Emperor in which he declares that he will soon die, as will the Emperor.

Yes, but the Emperor foils his beautiful plan by telling Luke that his friends are walking right into a trap set to him:

EMPEROR Oh...I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when
your friends arrive.

So Luke must realize that it would take a miracle to have the deflector shield destroyed, but first he has to confront Vader.

After he had (sucessfully) confronted and disarmed Vader the destruction of the deflector shield should have come back as top priority number one.

As I said earlier, I don't think that threatening (and definitely not killing) the Emperor to tell his troops on the Endor moon to withdraw would have qualified as an act to turn Luke to the dark side, but the Emperor would have most likely called the bluff (killing him would achieve nothing on behalf of his friends!).

But he didn't even try to threaten the Emperor or buy his friends something they needed most - time!

Instead he resorted to (IMHO with a smack of arrogance) provocation: "Never! I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness.
I am a Jedi, like my father before me." (not exactly the kind of thing to do when you expect the other person next to somehow cooperate with your demands)

Alternately, I could interpret Luke tossing away his lightsaber as a bait / test to see whether the Emperor would pick it up and use it (to get an idea how powerful the Emperor actually is and heeding Yoda's advice not to underestimate the Emperor).

But all that has inarguably characteristics of gamble and making leaps of faith while a practical approach to resolve the situation doesn't even seem to register.

 

You nailed it in your last line, Lt. Hija. Luke had tried the practical approach and failed, and finally resolved to take that leap of faith. And it paid off.

 

Season two's "Shroud Of Darkness".

Most of the time, that's how it was. As Anakin said to Padme, they had two forms of negotiation. Passive negotiations and aggressive negotiations, which is negotiations with a Lightsaber. Lucas even backs this up when describing what the Jedi of Obi-wan and Yoda's time were. He equated them as being like the Mafia. As to Leia, the point is to accept that you cannot protect everyone. There are things that are beyond your control and trying too hard to hold on to them is attachment and will lead to ruin. That's what leads Kanan to become a Knight.



He has to accept that he cannot force Ezra to be a Jedi, he must let him decide his own path and deal with whatever the consequences of those choices are.

No, he didn't. When Luke threw down his Lightsaber, he did it because he didn't want to kill him. He didn't want to be his father. He wanted to be himself. Luke did for Vader what he himself couldn't do for Dooku.





vs...





Luke showed compassion towards his father when he did that and it stuck with Vader, who remembered what he did to Dooku and what's more, it was more than what Obi-wan had done for him.

That is a risk Luke is willing to take. It's called a leap of faith.

He knows that he is powerful enough that his father joined him willingly. And as we learn in ROTS, a Jedi must never kill someone who is unarmed and helpless. Anakin killed Dooku who was helpless and unarmed, but when Mace goes to kill Palpatine, this makes him a hypocrite for breaking the Jedi Code. It was bad enough when he did it, but someone who should be above that doesn't follow through, it looks like, "Do as I say, not do as I do."

Because Luke gave into fear, anger and hate which is what Palpatine wanted. Luke was doing it for selfish reasons when he attacked Palpatine. He wasn't putting his faith in his friends to win the day. He wasn't putting his faith in the Force. Once he accepts this, does he become a Jedi and inspire Vader to become Anakin.

 

Very well Luke could have underestimated the emperor (which Yoda warned him about) as he did earlier about the sneak attack really being a trap which the emperor explained to him. Luke may have had no idea the emperor could do something like produce force lightning as he seemed not to expect it. He was still a novice Jedi knight after all.

 

Palpatine using the lightning would've been completely unexpected for audiences back in the day, not just Luke.

 

Yes, yes it was. Pardon me, but it was a real shocker.

 

Can someone explain to my why killing the Emperor would turn him to the Dark Side? That has been my question all along, but NO ONE has bothered to explain it. Everyone just keeps giving me copy/paste answers with no reason or explanation.

It's common knowledge that in order to turn to the Dark Side, one must kill some one WHILE using/out of Dark Side emotions such as anger, fear, and hatred (see quote above for what exactly turns a Jedi to the Dark Side. I understand that he can't kill the Emperor earlier in the Throne Room scene because the Emperor is taunting him (filling him with Dark Side emotions) into doing so WHILE using/out of those emotions. In the last scene (the one we're discussing), it's apparent that Luke feels NONE of the emotions. The Emperor has stopped taunting him. The Dark Side emotions left his body when he regains his composure. He's calm and at peace as Yoda would say. And if someone is calm and at peace, they are using the LIGHT SIDE of the Force. In short, Luke meets NONE of the requirements (according to the quote above) for a Jedi to turn to the Dark Side while killing someone.

On a side note:

Like I explained, the Emperor was armed with the Imperial military. On a single command, he can wipe out millions. It's would be quite narrow-minded of Luke to think of the Emperor is unarmed just because he doesn't have a little laser sword in his pocket. Also, there were millions of unarmed, innocent people aboard the First Death Star when he blew it up. Does that make him evil? No. He did it for the greater good. So even if the Emperor was unarmed (I just explained how he actually was), Luke could still kill him for the greater good. Also, Luke has plenty of non-selfish reasons to kill the Emperor (to help the rebellion, etc.).

So explain to me why Luke can't kill the Emperor right before being electrocuted considering that:

1. The Emperor has stopped taunting him
2. Because of #1, he no longer feels and Dark Side emotions for the Emperor
3. He is now calm and at peace, meaning he's using the Light Side, NOT the Dark Side, according to Yoda
4. He has other non-selfish reasons to kill the Emperor. He's in the Rebellion after all.

To those who say Luke is a PASSIVE person and just wants to avoid VIOLENCE:

We see Luke KILL 369,470 people just doing their jobs, and the Emperor is no different. Luke is a very aggressive and very violent person in every single film and Obi-Wan even ENCOURAGES Luke committing genocide while blowing up the Death Star. In ESB, Yoda even talks about Luke having to defeat Vader and the Emperor, meaning KILL them both because Yoda had no idea that Vader would turn good in the end. That was all Luke's idea. Therefore, the Jedi in general (even Yoda; ESPECIALLY Obi-Wan: he explicitly tells Luke that he has to KILL Vader in ROTJ) aren't shy of killing people, especially when its absolutely necessary.

 

Further support/evidence for my claim that as long as Luke is calm and NOT filled with Dark Side Emotions, he can safely kill the Emperor. And as I stated, LUKE IS CALM (NOT ANGRY) prior to being electrocuted, so killing the Emperor in that moment WOULD NOT turn him to the Dark Side.

I've given you all so much evidence as to why killing the Emperor in that moment wouldn't turn him to the Dark Side, so if you disagree, please ELABORATE more on a scenario in which killing the Emperor in that moment would turn him to the Dark Side. Preferably, write an alternate reality script (with dialogue and character motivations) which details what would happen if Luke DIDN'T throw down his lightsaber and, instead, tried to kill the Emperor. It'll be fun!

 

Death Star is a battleship and a superweapon - with a large crew aboard, but nonetheless a battleship/superweapon - the Star Wars equivalent of a nuclear missile sub and a surface warship, combined together. Genocide has a very specific definition which does not apply here.

 

It's kind of the like the end to Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith.

 

I did tell you. Palpatine is trying to goad Luke into fighting him and using the dark side. He can do it again and again. Luke knows this which is why he stops fighting. The greatest thing a Jedi can do is to not fight.

Palpatine has stopped because Luke refuses to fight any more. Hence he switches to killing when Luke tosses his saber away. If Luke fights Palpatine, he will make the same mistakes over again. That is why he cannot defeat Palpatine, but Vader can.

First, Luke isn't using the dark side to destroy the Death Star. He has to use it against Palpatine and he cannot do that. Second, Yoda never said that Luke had to kill Vader. Nor did Obi-wan. Just that he had to confront him. Luke took that as having to kill his own father. That's why he is able to find another solution by trusting his instincts and his feelings. He may be a rebel, but he is a Jedi first and a Jedi can only win if they choose how they will win. Luke chooses to win by not fighting.

 

If Luke could kill the Emperor dispassionately, then, yes, he could accomplish that task and not lose himself to the dark side. But after all that Sheev had put him through, could Luke be sure of maintaining perfect serenity as he cut down a living, breathing, and apparently helpless old man? I doubt that. Such an action is bound to trigger an emotional response, and that response is a slippery slope ending in darkness.

 

Palpatine is in charge of the space station. If Luke can kill the crew of the Death Star, he can most certainly kill the leader of the Imperial military.

Okay.

I never said that Luke used the Dark Side to blow up the Death Star. I was using that example as a counter to all the people saying that Luke is a passive, non-violent person. He's definitely the most violent Jedi we see in all the films. Other than that, I guess I can agree with the bold text in the quote above

I know Luke made the right decision to not kill Vader (because he could sense the good in Vader while Yoda and Obi-Wan could not) and I guess the Emperor, but what do you think Yoda and Obi-Wan expected?

Me nitpicking:

In RotS when Obi-Wan refuses to kill Anakin, Yoda refutes him and explains that Vader is beyond the point of no return. Yoda has lost all faith in Anakin. As far as Yoda is concerned, Anakin is dead.

Yoda believes that Anakin is too far gone, meaning the only way that Luke can "conquer Vader and his Emperor (Yoda, ESB)," is for him to kill them both. And I doubt Yoda's opinion has changed very much, considering his last sight of Vader was when he was slaughtering children.

Maybe you have forgotten, but in RotJ, when Luke says that he can't kill his own father, Obi-Wan explicitly states that he MUST. Therefore, Obi-Wan is literally telling Luke that if he doesn't kill his dad, the Emperor has already won.

You can't deny this. Ben is genuinely disappointed when Luke refuses to kill Vader. Meaning, he intended for Luke to kill them both all along.

I just wanted to clear that up, but yes. Luke definitely made the right decision to not kill Vader, but both Yoda and Obi-Wan had 0% faith in Vader by that point, and even Obi-Wan explicitly stated that he must kill Vader.

 

Auggie wrote

Can someone explain to my why killing the Emperor would turn him to the Dark Side? That has been my question all along, but NO ONE has bothered to explain it.

As for myself I don't see the need to answer your question because I concur that killing can't possibly and constantly lead to the dark side. That applies for both Luke and/or Kenobi when "they" blew up the first Death Star, and Luke when he attacked and killed the gunner on Jabba's sailing barge who was aiming at his friends (and posted no threat to Luke himself).

But it's still entirely hypothetical for the context you are discussing. Luke wanted to save his friends and certainly he would not have minded destroying the second Death Star, but killing the Emperor would have neither achieved one or the other (Commander Jerjerrod would have probably continued the massive intimidation and destructive work together with other Imperials).

Just to kill the Emperor would not have been sufficient to bring down the Empire unless the second Death Star was destroyed, too, which continues to let me wonder why he didn't try anything to help his friends to accomplish that.

 

Luke isn't killing them out of fear, anger and hate. The only way he can beat Palpatine is to surrender to the dark side. He's not powerful enough to do so without it.

Because he's on the edge between the light and the dark. He wants to be a Jedi, but his experience with Vader has left him with a sense of bitterness at having been lied to. That bitterness is feeding into his fear, anger and hate. This is why Luke chokes the Gamorreans, is eager to fight and threatens Jabba the way that he does. He is in many ways like his father was during the Clone Wars.

As to his father, yes, Vader has to die for the Force to be in balance. But how he dies is what is at stake. Luke has to be willing to let go of his father. His attachment that he's had to him since he's been old enough to remember is what's holding him back. This attachment is why he is the way he is in ROTJ. The only thing that Luke can do is find an alternative as Obi-wan himself said to Han. Luke must trust his instincts and the Force and they're telling him to not fight his father, but to bring him back. What we see is Luke finding that alternative. To do the impossible. Remember, do or do not, there is no try.

 

Luke knows that the Emperor is forcing a choice on him: kill me or your friends will die.

Luke refuses to go along with the Emperor's plan, and has faith in his friends to carry out the battle and destroy the Death Star.

LUKE
Your overconfidence is your weakness.

EMPEROR
Your faith in your friends is yours.

Don't forget - Luke went into this expecting to die:

LUKE
You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead...and you
with me.

His faith in the Force was already rewarded in ESB. When Vader told Luke that he was forseen destroying the Sith, Luke found the strength to avoid Vader's forced choice by dropping into the chasm, because there was a chance he might survive if his destiny was foretold.

LUCAS: It will be about how young Anakin Skywalker became evil and then was redeemed by his son.
But it's also about the transformation of how his son came to find the call and then ultimately realize
what it was. Because Luke works intuitively through most of the original trilogy until he gets to the very
end. And it's only in the last act--when he throws his sword down and says, "I'm not going to fight this"-
-that he makes a more conscious, rational decision. And he does it at the risk of his life because the
Emperor is going to kill him. It's only that way that he is able to redeem his father. It's not as apparent
in the earlier movies, but when you see the next trilogy, then you see the issue is, How do we get Darth
Vader back? How do we get him back to that little boy that he was in the first movie, that good person
who loved and was generous and kind? Who had a good heart.

Ultimately, his choice to renounce the Dark Side despite the apparent danger to himself and his friends provides the example Vader needs to find the strength in himself to turn away from the Dark Side as well.

 

You're misunderstanding me. I'm NOT arguing with you anymore. You're right: refusing to fight in the end was the BEST decision he could've made.

I'm just saying that Luke is a violent Jedi in general and that's OK. He didn't refuse to kill the Emperor because he opposes violence. He refused to kill him because he's a Jedi like his father before him. We see Luke taking names even when he's not teetering between the Light and the Dark.

If killing people in general was bad, Lucas wouldn't have put triumphant music in when Luke was choppin' people up in the Skiff Battle.

To all, I understand the big picture now so you can stop replying. Thanks!

 

It's not okay for Luke to be a violent Jedi. A Jedi uses violence as a last resort. Before Luke begins his training in earnest, he is not using the Force and as a result, it is okay for him to kill Stormtroopers like he does. Because he is not using the Force to do so and he is not doing it out of anger, except for time when Obi-wan is cut down. But then he stops Luke from making a terrible mistake. As to what happens at the Sarlaac pit, yes Luke is killing, but he is still on the edge. He's still trying to be a Jedi, but he is also a bundle of emotions. So he has moments where he is trying to emulate Obi-wan and then there are moments where he is emulating his father. Note that Obi-wan doesn't threaten his enemies in AOTC, TCW, ROTS and ANH. But Anakin is shown being threatening. If it had been Obi-wan in that instance, he wouldn't have threatened Jabba during the whole ordeal. He wouldn't have tried to fight in Jabba's den. He would have let Jabba's men make the first move. Most of what Luke does is what he would do, but he has flashes of his father come through.