CT Why didn't Luke attempt to kill the Emperor before electrocuting him?

Don't forget Luke choking the gamorrean guards.

 

I mentioned it earlier.

 

I don't think we can say for sure what Luke's "plan" is at the point he throws away his LS, its certainly possible he was looking to put pressure on Vader to help him and so convert him back to the light side, after all Luke had just drawn back from the darkside himself with an act of compassion.

Personally for me as well I think all of the extra detail we've had in the years since loses a bit of the focus on what the film was really about, it wasn't about killing Palpatine so much as it was Luke becoming a Jedi and saving Vader and the general conflict between the light and dark sides of the force.

The force in the OT for me is a much more active player in the drama, I think theres the sense of what were seeing is as much a conflict between the light and dark as it is the individuals so Luke killing Palpatine but starting out down the dark path by doing it is ultimately a defeat. You could argue the Emperor was merely playing with Luke when he asked him to strike him down but personally I think the vemon with which he says it implies some degree of truth, that even he is somewhat in the thrall of the darkside and views strengthening its power beyond his own ambition.

 

I agree. I think there is often some sincerity when Sith masters (or even nasty folks like the Dark Jedi master Jerec) exhibit when they say, "Strike me down!" They love the dark side drug so much that they want it to keep flowing through other people, beyond their own individual lives, even if they are not fully aware of it.

 

As I mentioned in another thread recently I think theres a very strong Tolkien influence in ESB/ROTJ. Forgiveness is one part of it with Luke's forgiveness of Vader saving him just as Frodo's forgiveness of Gollum allows the ring to be destroyed. Another factor is that evil isn't just personified in an opposing character to be defeated, its a temptation for the good characters, Gandalf, Saurman, Elrond, Galadriel and maybe Aragorn could all have defeated Sauron if they'd used the ring but the end result would be another dark lord just as Luke killing the Emperor and then falling to the darkside wouldn't have been a victory, indeed a darkside Luke could more likely have escaped the DS and then corrupted the rebels/Leia.

That's really what makes SW and LOTR more than just your typical heroes journey, the core of the story is a moral not a physical test.

 

I think they simply want the person to give into their anger wholeheartedly. To really mean it. In ROTJ, Palpatine was doing that to Luke, but he knew Vader was there as protection. I don't think a Sith would give away their own life so easily.

 

Depends on which one they are talking about. It's a twisted version of Eastern antimentors. Darth Bane may have wanted to be the superior Sith who lived forever, but he still would have been proud, deep down, that his apprentice surpassed him and preserved his doctrine.

 

Yes, this is pretty much my interpretation. Luke throwing down his saber is an incredibly powerful symbolic act. The act says to the Emperor: "There is nothing you can do to me that will turn me to the dark side. You can torture me. You can kill me. In fact, I am willing to let you do just that. Nothing you can do to me will make me turn away from my principles." (He actually turns Palpatine's manipulative -- "Strike me down. I am unarmed." -- into a peaceful act.)

If Luke had fought the Emperor, I actually don't think Luke would've turned to the dark side. I don't think he could've been goaded to join the dark side after what he experienced with his father no matter what Palpatine did.

However, by throwing down his weapon, Luke proves to the Emperor that he is incorruptible. Here's the important point: the Emperor still believes that Luke can be goaded into joining the dark side (even though Luke wouldn't have turned at that point), but when Luke throws down his weapon, even the Emperor realizes that Luke can't be converted. That's what enrages Palpatine, and being so enraged is what motivates Palpatine to sadistically torture Luke right in front of father (with the risk that that entails) when he could've easily Force pushed him to his death or fried him in an instant.


Now, let's look at things more practically. Luke goes to Palpatine with the expectation that they will all die. Luke's weakness is his faith in his friends. So, Palpatine, Vader, Luke, they're all about to be blown up anyway from Luke's POV. Palpatine is dead no matter what.

Now, let's be incredibly practical about it. Luke knows he stands no chance against the Emperor. So, Luke can get himself killed in 2 secs and not really achieve anything, or he can show Palpatine the true power of self-sacrifice (which is what gives Jedi the power to be Force ghosts, so not an insignificant principle). Now, is proving yourself to be an embodiment of principle a good thing or too idealistic? Well, I'm not sure, but let's look at what follows in just a sec, and I think we'll find the answer.

Now, a 3rd practical issue: even if Luke could kill Palpatine (which he can't), there's still the issue of Vader. Luke has already made it clear that he won't kill his father. So, if Luke does kill Palpatine (which he can't), Vader will just take over.


Now, let's look at Luke's choice to be an embodiment of the principle of self-sacrifice in more detail. Are there benefits to this? Yes, that's what convinces Vader to turn on Palpatine. Vader sees Luke, acting in the way he should've acted after he realized that Palpatine tricked him in ROTS (again another great parallel to ROTS), and he feels compassion for his son, who just showed him compassion, and he sees his son following the path of self-sacrifice (not selfish attachment) that he should've chosen 20 years earlier (which would've prevented him 20 years of misery), and so, Luke's choice to uphold the principle of self-sacrifice is what redeems Anakin.

Now, do I think that Luke planned all this out -- that his act of self-sacrifice would redeem Vader? No. (In fact, that would lessen its power because it would make it manipulative rather than symbolic.)

Instead, Luke simply wanted to show that he undeniably would not reject the Jedi principle of self-sacrifice. Nonetheless, Luke's choice shows the power of symbolic acts: Jesus allowing himself to be crucified; the Buddhist monk who, at peace with himself, sets himself on fire to protest the persecution of Buddhists in Vietnam; Gandhi refusing to eat until there is not a single act of violence between Muslims and Hindus across all of India. Some of these acts may have been in vain, others achieved great things, but, for instance, the fact that the self-sacrifice of the Buddhist monk didn't lead to change does nothing to take away the power of his act.

In this case, Luke choosing to act in a way that symbolized a principle led to a beautiful transformation in a man who had given up all hope in himself, but even if Luke's act did not lead to this positive result that would do nothing to diminish the power of Luke's act on its own. Sometimes symbolic acts aren't means to an end, they are the end in themselves.

 

But this is only what Luke thinks when he meets the Emperor, who makes it painfully clear the next second that he set up a trap for Luke's friends and that him, Vader and Luke are not going to blow up with the Death Star. And Luke never learns whether Hand and Leia were successful or not.

 

Well, in heated situations, people often fall back on their most fundamental principles since they don't have an opportunity to think things through, and this is also Luke's weakness: he has faith in his friends even when he shouldn't.

At the same, I can see where you're coming from to. Maybe Luke would lose faith b/c of what the Emperor has shown him.

What's more important, though, is that there are other practical issues that would make Luke fighting Palpatine pretty pointless. Luke can't beat Palpatine, and even if he could, Vader's still there, and Luke refuses to kill Vader.

What's most important, though, is the power of Luke's symbolic act on its own. There's power in acts of extreme self-sacrifice that exists all by itself, and it's this power that enrages Palpatine to the point where he leaves himself open and it's this power that redeems Vader.

 

That's one of the reasons for Luke fighting and for Luke surrendering. He doesn't know if they will survive and his frustration is that he cannot help them. But he ultimately accepts that whatever fate has in store for them, it isn't worth his soul trying to stop it. That's what having faith in his friends is about. That's what letting go of his friends is about.

 

Killing in self defense or to protect others isn't wrong. Sometimes that's the only way left to do whatever they have to do. And we see that many times throughout the saga.

After all, Jedi have lightsabers and are trained in martial arts for a reason. They'll avoid violence if they can, but when push comes to shove, they are ready for it.

Luke knows that Palpatine is out of his league, so fighting him is pointless. He probably could if he used the dark side, but that's precisely the reason for why he didn't fight. It wasn't about Vader anymore. He chose to not sell his soul to the devil, just like he did in TESB when he chose to fall instead of joining Vader.

 

I thought Luke was there primarily for Vader. He told Leia before he left that there's still good in Vader and he has to try to turn him back to the good side. He stayed true to his purpose in the situation. Just as Vader knew that he couldn't overthrow the Emperor alone (he needs Luke); Luke knows (once in his right mind again) that he can't do anything about the Emperor without Vader (Yoda told him not to underestimate the Emperor). He essentially leaves it up to his father and the faith he has placed in him. He's willing to die for that faith. Even as the Emperor is slowly electrocuting him to death, his faith in his father and the good in him is unwavering. By being passive and doing nothing while the Emperor is being violent presents Vader clearly with the choice between love and hate.

Vader is the one who called Luke son this whole time. He didn't call him Anakin's son (which Luke correctly points out to Vader that he *is* Anakin's son and not Vader's son). If Luke's father isn't "truly dead" (if calling Luke son this whole time ever had any meaning) then Vader has to return to the good side. To have Luke as his son he has to let go of his hate. This is just a continuation of their conversation on Endor, and Luke's position will not change.

By not being overly attached to the outcome of the situation (letting go) Luke does something the Jedi order in the PT didn't do. He's not trying to control the galaxy, or to use might to force peace. He's surrendered to the will of the Force as it flows through him.

Also if Luke doesn't show the example of letting go, of compassion, then how can he reach his father.

(Anyway, agree with the posts that mention faith.)

 

Just to answer your question, Luke had just touched or almost touched the Dark side. I don't think he trusts himself to not kill the Emperor and not turn to the Dark side. So he throws his weapon away, to avoid the temptation. I don't think this a good move, I alway cringe when he throws it away, I mean at least keep it for defense. Part of me thinks or likes to think it was part of Luke's plan to save Vader, but that's just a hope.

Just to clarify, Luke did not attempt to kill the Emperor. Seeing the battle going the Empire's way and not knowing how his friends are doing Luke decided to stop standing around and complete his training and confront Vader. If you stop and watch the scene, when Luke calls his blade to his hands, he puts blade over his shoulder closest to the Emperor. If he is going to strike the Emperor down, he has to swing to that side. Instead he swings to other side across his body away from the Emperor. If you need more proof in the next scene Vader's blade passes in front of Luke's blade. if Vader is protecting the Emperor, his blade would have to go behind Luke's blade.

If you are wondering why the Emperor wanted Luke to kill him, the Emperor is looking to transfer his essence into Luke's body. To do this the Emperor needs the body to belong to another Sith. If Luke does manage to kill the Emperor, and not turn to the dark side the Emperor would have just transfered his essence to the other Sith in the room, namely Darth Vader, which has always been Vader's purpose.

 

That's just iffy choreography (possibly, to ensure that McDiarmid doesn't accidentally get hit) . The script, I think, was pretty explicit that the swing was at Palpatine, not Vader. As is the novelisation.

 

1. Luke was well below Palpatine in force abilities, and I think Luke knew it.
2. Luke was mentally and physically tired. He's breathing heavily after he makes his defiant mini-speech to Palpatine.
3. Luke was afraid that he could slip back into rage when fighting Palpatine. Better to die a defiant Jedi than fall to the dark side.

 

Ok the script, is this IMDB script? Are these certified originals or just typed up by interns watching the movie?
Also this script is vague, and can still fit my interpretation as Luke swing would go over the Emperor's body and Vader does block, it.

It's just if the Luke really was trying to kill the Emperor, it creates a lot of confusion to the story for me. Ok my 1st problem is why would Vader stop Luke from killing the Emperor? He has spent the entirety of two movies trying to get Luke to join him and destroy the Emperor, then when Luke's about kill the Emperor Vader stops him? This makes absolutely no sense too me. I have read, watched some explanations for this and honestly sounds like BS to me.
The other problem this creates for me is the roller coaster ride this creates for Luke's character. He loses control and attacks the Emperor, but then when the opportunity presents itself to attack the Emperor again, Luke doesn't take it. If Luke decides he should kill the Emperor why does he give up so easily? Also his losing control against the Emperor looks nothing like him losing control against Vader. Now he has lost control twice, and almost killed the Emperor and Vader, does that really sound like someone, who can just stop themselves and throw their lightsaber away? He seems a lot more unstable and less capable of stopping making what happens seems like a lot less likely. He goes from doing what the Emperor asks and losing control and trying to kill him, to losing control and almost killing Vader, to going against the Emperor, and letting go of his anger and throwing his lightsaber away? This seems like a lot of character growth, in a very short period of time.
If fans can except this then what are they complaining about in the Sequel trilogy, seems just as convoluted as the original.

My interpretation is that Luke could no longer sit there and do nothing so he brought his lightsaber to him to engage Vader and complete his training. From what I can tell from the actual filming of the movie seems to bear that out. Lucas was alway changing the story, so not sure why fans think there was strick adherence to the script. While fighting Vader, Luke has several opportunities to try to kill the Emperor again, but he doesn't take them. What happens for Luke to change his mind that he doesn't have to kill the Emperor anymore. It would seem to me once you make that decision you stick with it, at least until something changes like him losing control, but he seems to abandon this train of thought almost instantly once he engages Vader. He does finally lose control when Vader directly threatened his sister, but still, he only goes nuts on Vader's hand, trying to get revenge, I think for cutting off Luke's hand. When the Emperor interjects Luke comes back to himself completely, he looks at Vader's hand and his own and remembers his cave vision with his head in Vader's helmet and throws his lightsaber away, (which I completely still think is a bad move) to make sure the vision doesn't come true. I also kind of think it was part of his plan to save Vader.

Anyway if this has alway been the interpretation, not sure why fans where so upset with the sequel trilogy, seems just as convoluted as the OT.

Thanks for your response, I guess I will need some time to rethink the scene in light of the script and try to make sense of it. Thanks again

 

Well, I think Luke allowed the Emperor to attack him, in order to get Vader to see the light.

P.S.

Didn't Obi-Wan kill Darth Maul in anger, after watching Qui-Gon die?

 

Ok the script, is this IMDB script? Are these certified originals or just typed up by interns watching the movie?
Also this script is vague, and can still fit my interpretation as Luke swing would go over the Emperor's body and Vader does block, it.

It's just if the Luke really was trying to kill the Emperor, it creates a lot of confusion to the story for me. Ok my 1st problem is why would Vader stop Luke from killing the Emperor? He has spent the entirety of two movies trying to get Luke to join him and destroy the Emperor, then when Luke's about kill the Emperor Vader stops him? This makes absolutely no sense too me. I have read, watched some explanations for this and honestly sounds like BS to me.
The other problem this creates for me is the roller coaster ride this creates for Luke's character. He loses control and attacks the Emperor, but then when the opportunity presents itself to attack the Emperor again, Luke doesn't take it. If Luke decides he should kill the Emperor why does he give up so easily? Also his losing control against the Emperor looks nothing like him losing control against Vader. Now he has lost control twice, and almost killed the Emperor and Vader, does that really sound like someone, who can just stop themselves and throw their lightsaber away? He seems a lot more unstable and less capable of stopping making what happens seems like a lot less likely. He goes from doing what the Emperor asks and losing control and trying to kill him, to losing control and almost killing Vader, to going against the Emperor, and letting go of his anger and throwing his lightsaber away? This seems like a lot of character growth, in a very short period of time.
If fans can except this then what are they complaining about in the Sequel trilogy, seems just as convoluted as the original.

My interpretation is that Luke could no longer sit there and do nothing so he brought his lightsaber to him to engage Vader and complete his training. From what I can tell from the actual filming of the movie seems to bear that out. Lucas was alway changing the story, so not sure why fans think there was strick adherence to the script. While fighting Vader, Luke has several opportunities to try to kill the Emperor again, but he doesn't take them. What happens for Luke to change his mind that he doesn't have to kill the Emperor anymore. It would seem to me once you make that decision you stick with it, at least until something changes like him losing control, but he seems to abandon this train of thought almost instantly once he engages Vader. He does finally lose control when Vader directly threatened his sister, but still, he only goes nuts on Vader's hand, trying to get revenge, I think for cutting off Luke's hand. When the Emperor interjects Luke comes back to himself completely, he looks at Vader's hand and his own and remembers his cave vision with his head in Vader's helmet and throws his lightsaber away, (which I completely still think is a bad move) to make sure the vision doesn't come true. I also kind of think it was part of his plan to save Vader.

Anyway if this has alway been the interpretation, not sure why fans where so upset with the sequel trilogy, seems just as convoluted as the OT.

Thanks for your response, I guess I will need some time to rethink the scene in light of the script and try to make sense of it. Thanks again[/QUOTE]

 

Luke tried to take a swing but Vader blocked it.

After their duel, Luke had thrown away his lightsaber and had no idea Palpatine could use the Force. His whole plan, to me, was basically save Anakin from his Vader persona, or die trying.

 

I agree with Luke intending to save Vader before all else, but Yoda did say, "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emperor."

Since TESB, we had clues that the Emperor had Force powers, but then Obi-Wan specifically says, "You must face Darth Vader (specifically) again." but he also does present the Emperor as a threat in his own right- saying that Luke's abilities could be made to serve him. That would further imply to Luke that Palpatine is a dark sider.

 

Nope. Obi-Wan was going to kill Maul out of anger, until he was knocked into the pit. Then he let go of his anger, focused and took him down the right way. That's why we hear the Force theme.

Because Like isn't ready yet. He needs to further drive him to turn.

Vader knows Luke could kill Palpatine, and still walk away because he did, after the Tuskens. Palpatine had to keep pushing him to turn until he was ready. Anakin fought Dooku multiple times, pushing him further and further down the dark path. Then Padme became the final straw. He needs to make Luke feel as if he has no choice but to turn.

Palpatine tells him that he is defenseless. He is unarmed. Jedi are trained to not kill someone who cannot or will not fight. When Luke calms down, he knows that trying to kill Palpatine is wrong. Luke is also angry at his father.


"In The Empire Strikes Back it’s the first time that the antagonist and protagonist actually fight each other. So that it is a very big fight and Luke now has become proficient enough to be able to face Darth Vader. So it’s a slightly one-sided swordfight where Vader has the advantage over him. Luke didn’t know that Vader was his father for the fight part, so that what was happening was he though he was fighting his bitter enemy. So he was fighting as hard as he could; he was fighting the man who killed his father; fighting the man who killed Obi-Wan Kenobi; fighting the man who would personify evil in the universe. And then as we go on into the next fight, it becomes more of an equal confrontation. In the next one, the Return of the Jedi, he knew he was fighting his father. He knew that the Emperor was behind all this. And he knew the issues he was dealing with were much larger than just the swordfight. And so that swordfight really centered on the more emotional context the swordfight takes place in than the actual fight itself. That was the climax of the film rather than having it be a technological warfare, blow up the Death Star kind of thing, it was really more of a personal fight between a father and son."

--George Lucas, “The Birth of the Lightsaber,” Star Wars: Bonus Material DVD, 2004.

"This scene where Luke deliberately gets himself captured and confronts Vader sort of defines the rest of the movie in terms of the fact that it’s not a chase, or one trying to escape from the other, but it’s an emotional competition between the two of them. And Luke isn’t going to run away from him, he isn’t going to fight him, you know it’s a whole different twist on where you might expect the movie might go. It becomes a direct challenge that Luke has with his father to say “I dare you—I’m not going to run away from this,” which makes it very different in keeping them as villains or in a villain/hero kind of situation. It’s “we’re going to sit down and talk about this.” And again on a lot of levels there are some nice twists in their relationship and how they confront each other. But it’s not just like in The Empire Strikes Back, where it was actually a physical confrontation and a real, you know, cutting arms off and things like that. This is a more emotional, talking kind of confrontation."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary, 2004.

Yoda and Obi-Wan both told him he has to face Vader. He cannot avoid it anymore. He knows this when he arrives at Endor and finds him there. Luke is trying to save him, but he has to defend himself as well. Luke shut his saber off twice and jumps away to avoid fighting him. Luke only attacks Vader because of Leia's identity being discovered and Luke's fear exploding into anger and hate.

When Luke throws his Lightsaber away, it comes with the realization that he is becoming his father. That's why he looked at Vader's hand and his own. He sees himself lying there. He remembered his failure in the tree cave. The vision told him that if he killed his father, he would become him and he cannot do that. He does the same thing Obi-Wan did with Maul. Once he does this, he becomes a Jedi and Palpatine knows this.

 

This isn't what really happens in the movie. Luke turns with his back to the camera, and uses the force to call his lightsaber to him. Vader almost instantly has his lightsaber light, before Luke even gets his saber to his hand. Luke swings his blade to his inside shoulder, which is closest to the Emperor, and when he swings the lightsaber, although it technically, is at going towards the Emperor, it is not striking down to kill the Emperor, but passes over him to meet Vader's blade. Forget that Vader's blade passes in front of Luke's, watch Vader's arms they are swinging towards the Emperor, not away from it. That's right Luke is actually saving the Emperor from Vader. Because Darth Vader has spent a movie and a half trying to get Luke to join him and kill the Emperor, and now it's about to happen and he stops Luke? Why? There is only one good reason why, because the Emperor has just revealed his plan to use his essence to take over Luke and at this time Vader is the only other Sith Lord in the room and he doesn't want Palpatine transferring his essence into his body. This self centered kind of thinking, kind of makes Vader's redemption Arc, a little less believable.

Luke stopped Vader because the Jedi know that the Emperor is waiting to transfer his essence into Vader to make him unstoppable. Why is it if the Emperor is the big bad guy in charge, is Yoda pushing Luke to confront Vader? Because killing Palpatine with Vader still around will only make Palpatine stronger.
Luke wants to save his father from the dark side not let Palpatine take over his body. He stops Vader from killing Palpatine to save him from losing his mind and body to Palpatine.
Luke is in control almost the entire time, I think he goes a little crazy on Vader's hand, but if he wanted to kill Vader he had ample chances to do it before the Emperor buts in. When Luke looks at his hand he is not thinking back to cave scene, as I incorrectly indicated in a different post, he is realizing how much he and Vader are a like and figures the best way to redeem his Father. He throws away his Lightsaber to set the same trap for his father, that Vader set up for Luke in Empire Strikes Back. He makes Vader have to choose, between his son, who has shown him enough love, by sparing his life and believing in his redemption, against the Emperor, who set up the same trap for him with Padme. And in this Vader's redemption and choice make sense, as he makes the choice with Luke that he made with Padme, it just leads him to a different destination.
Vader then uses the force to freeze Palpatine, like Kylo Ren, does to Rey, or Snoke does to Rey, or Palpatine does to Rey and Ben. Vader then purposely takes a bunch of Force Lightening to the Face to make sure Vader dies, because Vader is not sure Palpatine won't transfer his essence into Vader's body. If Palpatine does this Vader has assured victory because he is dying too. I think it is this self sacrifice that actually brings Vader back to the light side of the Force.

Please, go back and watch the scene, in slow motion if you have too, but I am tired of arguments that are not based on what happens in the movie, Vader knows Luke's not ready emotionally, how do we know this? I disagree that Vader knows that you can kill out of anger and and not turn to the dark side, because ultimately isn't that where Vader ends up. As Yoda says once you start down the dark path forever, will it dominate your destiny.
Why does the script trump what actually happens in the movie? This argument that it's not in the script makes no sense to me. Isn't this about what takes place in the movie? It's fine to disagree, but please stick to points that actually take place in the movie please.

 

That's not what it looks like to me. It looks like Luke acting, and Vader reacting.

Luke begins the process of "swinging his lightsaber in the Emperor's general direction" and Vader responds by igniting his own offscreen, and then the two crossing.

 

The thread title is very confusing because it seems to imply that Luke has the ability to electrocute Plapy