CT Why didnt Obi Wan(BEN KENOBI) Keep Luke

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 21, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
  1. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Oh, I am well aware of what some anonymous contributor to the Wookieepedia wrote regarding canon levels.

    Like I said, I'm here to discuss the movies. And if something had to be retcon explained in some interview somewhere, then that would qualify as a failing of the films.
    Sorry but that's just not true. As you yourself admitted above, there are differing canon levels. And don't even get me started on how many things within the EU contradict other things within the EU. I have some really, really atrocious 30+ year old Star Wars Marvel Comics. Are those "Part of the same ongoing saga" too? Are we going to have to discuss the impact Queen Sarna had on the Star Wars Galaxy?

    Lucas himself admitted he doesn't follow the EU. But since he wants to sell books and TV shows and comics to the fanboys, he has to say "oh, uh, yeah.... the EU is canon.... yup, that's the ticket, it sure is! So everyone read those books and comics and watch the TV show 'cuz it's all official!" But when it came time to make the prequels (and now that it is time to make the sequels), we saw beyond any doubt how worthless the EU is. Anything you thought you knew got thrown away when it came time to make the films.
  2. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Nothing in the EU was thrown away when the prequels were made. The EU was intentionally vague about the years when the prequels would be taking place to avoid any contradictions. And when the prequels were finally made, there were surprisingly very few contradictions, all of which were easily fixed. Therefore, all of the EU is still exactly as valid today as it was before 1999. How does that make the EU worthless?

    Yes, the Marvel comics are a part of the Star Wars canon too. The differing canon levels only come into play when there is a direct contradiction, in which case the higher-level source is considered to be correct. If there is no contradiction, then it is all a part of the same ongoing saga. That's how LFL defines the canon, so that's the definition we have to abide by.
    Last edited by timmoishere, Sep 24, 2013
  3. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    You've obviously never heard of Jaster Mareel. (And yes, I know they came up with some ridiculous retcon to try and explain who he really is, but it simply cannot be denied that the EU created a backstory for Boba Fett in the mid to late 90's, then Lucas threw it all away).
    My friend, I sincerely hope you're not getting your hopes up about characters like Joruus C'Baoth, Mara Jade, Grand Admiral Thrawn, etc., playing major roles in the upcoming sequels.
    Like I said..... they want to sell books and TV shows to us fanboys so what do you expect them to say? When Lucas himself admits he doesn't care, I find it hard to care myself.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  4. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Boba Fett's back story was not thrown away. Jaster Mereel was simply an alias that he used for a time. It was never intended to be his real name.

    I would still love to see why you think the prequels made the EU worthless. The upcoming sequels may throw a wrench into things, but we'll just have to see how things turn out. I am not expecting an adaptation of any of the current EU novels, so it will likely be a new story set however many years after ROTJ. I highly doubt C'baoth or Thrawn will make any appearance in the sequel, since they died 5 years after ROTJ, and it is quite clear that the sequels will be set much more than 5 years later. As for Mara, who knows? Just keep an open mind.
  5. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Like I said, I know they came up with a very silly retcon to try and reconcile the changes, but if you don't acknowledge that the original Boba Fett/Jaster Mareel backstory from the 90's was thrown away in Episode 2, then you obviously never read those books. And what about the whole part explaining why Yoda originally went to Dagobah? They threw that away too.
    Because, as Lucas admitted when he started making the prequels and Abrams has already admitted, they are simply ignoring anything said in the EU. We were originally told the Clone Wars took place 30+ years before Episode 4. We got a little bit of C-3PO's and R2-D2's backstory. We got Fett's backstory. And then it was all thrown away.
    Well I just use those guys as examples, so let me try again: If you think the Yuuzhan Vong will be making an appearance or that the Star Wars galaxy will be living in the post-Vong invasion or you're looking forward to Darth Kryat, then you'll be in for a disappointment.

    Also, I guess there's going to be no Chewbacca in the sequel movies because he's dead, right? Killing Chewbacca is arguably the most prominent and major event that took place in the post-ROTJ EU. So which is it? Is Chewbacca dead for E7 or is the EU worthless?
  6. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2013
    star 1
    If Chewbacca is out of the picture they will use lowbacca
  7. timmoishere Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2007
    star 6
    Nothing in the EU has been thrown away. Please cite a source if you think it has been. The backstories of Fett and the droids are still valid; the prequels simply added new information to what we knew previously. Something similar was done for the Death Star's history.

    And again, we simply don't know what will happen with E7. We'll just have to wait and see.
  8. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    I've already cited a source. The whole Jaster Mareel backstory has been thrown away. I also recently re-read the re-released Heir to the Empire (complete with author's notes). It is a good book and I really enjoyed it, but there are several times where I would read something and say "yup, they threw that away in the prequels." Even Timothy Zahn himself in the author's notes admits the exact same thing. Just about everything Zahn wrote in that book about the Clone Wars ended up being completely thrown away.

    When the guy who actually wrote the book admits that they threw his ideas away in the prequels, then that's good enough for me. You should buy the 20th Anniversary of Heir to the Empire, and read the author's notes. It is great insight.
    The fact that you believe that shows you just haven't read the backstories of those characters.
    Either Chewbacca is dead at the start of E7, or the EU is crap. And I'd gladly bet that not a single person in here believes Chewbacca will be absent from the sequels.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  9. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Not thrown away- Jaster Mereel simply became Fett's alias (taken from a past Mandalorian hero, Jango's mentor).

    Boba Fett still went through a period as a Journeyman Protector on Concord Dorn in post-PT books like Legacy of the Force, and still got exiled after murdering his commander.
  10. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2013
    star 1
    Beezer, I have a feeling that you dont like EU.
  11. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Like I said, they came up with a ridiculous retcon to try and explain away the discrepancies.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  12. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Depends on what you mean by "don't like." Some of the EU is really good. Some of it is total crap. But none of it is g-level canon and all of it was subject to being thrown away when they made they prequels or sequels.

    Too many people use the EU as a crutch to explain away shortcomings from the movies. When I come into a forum called "Classic Trilogy" I am doing so to discuss the movies, not something that was written in some book 20 years afterwards.

    But one thing is for darn sure: Anyone who considers the EU canon must be very disappointed that Chewbacca won't be in the sequels.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Strictly speaking, novelizations and radio plays are both "EU" and "G-level canon" - at least, the bits of their content that come from Lucas are.

    Scenes based on deleted scenes from the movies. The stuff about Darth Bane in the TPM novelization. And so forth
  14. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Except that's impossible, because there are some pretty big inconsistencies between the movies and the novelizations, especially in the CT. For example, in the Star Wars novel - written by none other than George Lucas himself - Luke was Blue 5, not Red 5, in the Battle of Yavin. And he made 2 trench runs, not just 1. So Lucas made the movie and he wrote the novel but they can't both be canon.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  15. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Actually, it was ghostwritten by Alan Dean Foster- Lucas simply got to put his name on it.

    Where scenes from the novel and the movie differ, the movie takes precedence- but otherwise, both default to G-canon unless there's evidence that something in the novelization was entirely invented by its writer.
    Aaronaman likes this.
  16. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Yes I know. And when something is ghostwritten by someone, then the original source is considered the credited writer and that person owns the property and the words in that book. George Lucas is the credited author of the Star Wars novel, even if the actual words were arranged with the help of someone else. But if you were to quote something from that novel, it would be appropriate to attribute the quote to Lucas, not Foster.
    Do you know how silly you sound? You're saying "The EU and novels are canon - except for the parts where they aren't!" That's the whole point I am making.

    You said that deleted scenes are canon. Well, in an E3 deleted scene, Grievous kills Shaak Ti right in front of Anakin and Obi-Wan on The Invisible Hand (I thought that was one of the few deleted scenes which should have been left in). But in the EU, she's alive and well for quite some time, even after Order 66. So I guess that's another example where "the EU and deleted scenes are canon - except when they're not."
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  17. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Actually, the reason that particular deleted scene is non-canon is not because it contradicts the EU- but because it contradicts the movie as aired:

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Shaak_Ti

    Shaak Ti had two different death scenes at various stages of Revenge of the Sith's development, but they were both deleted and confirmed by Star Wars Insider 87 that neither scene was canonical, and that she was still alive at the end of Revenge of the Sith as Shaak Ti is later seen alive in hologram form during a Jedi Council meeting.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 24, 2013
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Last time I checked, Lucas quotes were allowed in these discussions. The only contradictions from Lucas are about how many films he had in mind.

    Jedi and Sith are generally raised from birth. The only time that's not the case is when they change the rules for one reason or another. And as Lucas has said, Palpatine raised Maul from birth and when he was killed, Palpatine had to turn a Jedi in order to carry on his plans.


    [IMG]

    It has everything to do with it. Some Jedi decides he wants to get his **** *** and stops off at the nearest planet, which just happens to be Tatooine and nails the first chick he finds. That's the point in Qui-gon's question. It doesn't go beyond that because Shmi says there was no father, which then makes Qui-gon reconsider what he knows.

    We don't know who or what could make their way into the films. Odds are none of them will, or some will. Abrams will ignore things. The spinoff films, on the other hand might use stuff. In regards to novelizations, what was written in the ANH novelization was not a contradiction. It was based on the shooting script that was handed out in the spring of 1976, to all the cast and crew. Even then, changes were made during filming. That's standard procedure in all films and even television shows. Foster wasn't on set every day when this was going on. He was given a copy of that screenplay to use for his adaptation. This true of all movie novelizations and most television novelizations. This is result of having to get the book done in time, for the release date of the film. Usually up to a month before then. This carried over to ESB and ROTJ. The PT books were different as the authors were allowed to add EU elements to the books and even expand upon material not found in the film.

    Anyway, let's stop the EU discussion. That can of worms was closed and doesn't need to be reopened.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Sep 24, 2013
  19. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    Exactly, and you're proving my point. You said the deleted scenes and radio plays and books were canon, and I'm saying that's impossible because of the countless number of direct contradictions with other books, radio plays and the movie themselves.

    Hence the mantra of the EU-krishnas: "The EU and novels and radio plays and deleted scens are all canon! (except for the parts that aren't)."
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    What is canon is the basic story. Details will vary, but by and large they remain the same. The Shaak Ti footage on the DVD was only included because it was mostly finished, before it was replaced. Lucas included it because even though he didn't like its place in the film, he did like the scene overall and wanted audiences to understand how a film will change and evolve. It's the same reason he included the original conversation between Mace and Obi-wan on the DVD for AOTC. Often times, those deleted sequences wind up be referred to in other areas.
  21. Beezer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 5, 2013
    star 4
    There are many, many contradictions that Lucas has spoken over the past 40 years regarding these movies. I mentioned one above. In the book he wrote, Luke is Blue 5 and makes 2 trench runs. So is that g-level canon?
    There is absolutely nothing in the movies which tells us that. There is a quote from QuiGon saying Anakin would have been identified young.

    So how do you feel about there being no Chewbacca in the Episode 7? You must be expecting he'll be dead at the start of E7 because Lucas himself personally signed off on Chewie being killed. And anything Lucas says in some interview somewhere is g-level canon, right?
  22. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    No, because the final film takes precedence with regards to the color and number designations of the fighter squads. The film will always take precedence there. That's forgivable because most people understand how novelizations and movie scripts work. The number of trench runs can be debated. The movie shows one, but it doesn't hurt if the Essential Chronology says there were two. The scenes with Luke on Tatooine while the opening battle between the Tantive IV and the Devastator aren't contradictions, because they're referenced in the film itself. Luke mentions what Biggs said about Luke forever being stuck on Tatooine and the reference about needing new droids, when the Sandcrawler shows up at the farm, goes back to the droid that broke down earlier in said deleted scene. Same with the sandstorm scene in ROTJ. Sure, the final film doesn't show it, but nothing in that scene contradicts the film and so it is often regarded as canon. Shaak Ti's deaths in the film are considered not part of the lore, but her death in "The Force Unleashed" is.

    Except for the Younglings in AOTC, who were at least four and five. As well as Anakin being told that he was too old to start the training and he was nine.


    No, I've long since acknowledged that most, if not all post OT EU will be out. So I'm aware that Chewie would be in Episode VII. However, it is possible that a spin off film uses a particular character, even if it contradicts most of their other appearances. Meaning, Mara Jade could appear in a film, but be portrayed differently. On the other hand, depending on what the state of the galaxy is in VII, there could be wiggle room for many of the pre NJO stories. Meaning Leia could have been Chancellor for a time, the names of Han and Leia's children could be used, but their fates during NJO are replaced.

    Right now. post OT EU is up in the air. EU during the OT, before the OT, during the PT and before are still safe. However, none of that is germane to the discussion.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Sep 24, 2013
  23. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Going back to the original question "Why didn't Obi-Wan keep Luke instead of handing him over to the Larses?" - there's plenty of possible explanations- and he actually proposes that he take Luke and Yoda take Leia- but Yoda says no.
  24. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2013
    star 1
    I like how this thread has evolved.
  25. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2013
    star 1
    I am Sorry, but I dont see Leia living on Dagobah with crazy old Yoda.
    Last edited by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 24, 2013
Moderators: Darth_Nub, MOC Yak Face
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.