CT Why didnt Obi Wan(BEN KENOBI) Keep Luke

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 21, 2013.

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  1. Beezer Force Ghost

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    Jul 5, 2013
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    Exactly, and you're proving my point. The films will always take precedence, period, end of story.
    Last time I checked, children were not born at age 4 or 5. I went to kindergarten at that age, but I don't tell people I was sent to kindergarten at birth.
    So we seem to be in agreement and I really don't know what we're arguing about. My language is certainly more harsh than yours but it does nothing to change the fact that when in comes to the movies, we agree the EU is thrown out.
    Yup, the EU is canon. Except for the parts which aren't.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  2. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    The EU is different levels of canon:

    Stuff from movie novelizations that Lucas came up with: G-Canon (unless contradicted by movie, in which case, noncanon):
    TCW TV series: T-canon:
    Most of the rest: C-canon:
    Marvel: S-Canon

    Yup- he'd need to bring enough milk to wean Leia, then catch food for them both. And that's before thinking of all the other things it takes to bring up a child. It would pretty much require him to live somewhere other than Dagobah.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 24, 2013
  3. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

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    By 1996, Licensing was keeping an in-house bible of reference materials as the volume of publications, facts, and figures grew to such unwieldy proportions that it became difficult to know everything relevant to a particular project. They finally decided something had to be done to organize the increasingly large collection of media which chronicled the Star Wars universe. A system of canon was developed that organized the materials into what was and wasn't fit for the Star Wars story.
    In 2000, Lucas Licensing appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron".[4] As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years.
    The Holocron is divided into five levels (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.
    G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.
    T-canon[5] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the upcoming Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[6]
    C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.
    S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.
    N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I–III.
  4. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Where'd you get that definition from? The Wookieepedia definition was:

    S-canon is Secondary Canon; the materials are available to be used or ignored as needed by current authors. This includes mostly older works, such as much of the Marvel Star Wars comics, that predate a consistent effort to maintain continuity; it also contains certain elements of a few otherwise N-canon stories, and other things that "may not fit just right." Many formerly S-canon elements have been elevated to C-canon through their inclusion in more recent works by continuity-minded authors.

    And shouldn't this be its own thread?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 24, 2013
  5. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    But only in certain details. Blue 5 and Red 5 are inconsequential nitpicks, compared to the Luke and Biggs scenes on Tatooine. Those are more important and is why deleted scenes, screenplays and novelizations are considered secondary part of G Canon.

    Except this school is different from your school, because the Jedi don't want the children to develop strong emotional attachments to their families. Ergo, it starts at birth.

    The upcoming ST is the wild card since we know nothing about what is going on and what the LucasBooks and LucasArts divisions will do. Most likely the last set of novels and comics will come out and there will be a cap to those stories, and a new set of EU stories set in the ST era will start. It's unclear right now. When the PT came out, there were a few minor inconsistencies, but nothing that wasn't salvageable.
  6. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

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    Got it from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_canon

    Can we Stay on Topic.

    Obi Wan and Luke.
    Step Father and Son if you wanna look at it.
  7. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    The standard in all movie forums is that the EU is a relevant opinion that however does not overrule another person's opinion. That being said, this is not a thread to debate canon. It ends now or the thread will be locked.
  8. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Obi-Wan and Luke: the movie doesn't tell us just how well they are acquainted. The books, however, had Owen make it clear to Ben that he should avoid hanging around the Lars farm (when Luke was still a baby) since it will raise suspicions- and there's no hint that Obi-Wan actually taught Luke anything prior to their meeting in A New Hope.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 24, 2013
  9. Beezer Force Ghost

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    OK, I admit I am guilty of going off on tangents as threads evolve. I promise I won't engage in any further canon debate herein so please don't lock.
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  10. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

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    I see, so Owen tells Ben Kenobi to stay away from Luke? didnt knew that.
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  11. Beezer Force Ghost

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    I actually always got that sort of impression from the conversation from E4. Not necessarily that it was ever expressly forbidden, but it's clear Owen has little regard for Obi-Wan and seems to want to steer Luke away from him. Telling Luke "I don't think he even exists, he died about the same time as your father" when he knows that's not true is good evidence of that.
    Last edited by Beezer, Sep 24, 2013
  12. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

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    Didn't he actually tell Luke to stay away from Obi-Wan in the film? Seem to remember that.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Initially, it's just a "be more careful" warning, but after the krayt dragon incident it's more emphatic:

    p106-108 The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi:

    "Hello, Owen," Obi-Wan said as he brought the eopie to a halt. "Is something wrong?"
    Owen nodded once. Obi-Wan began to dismount, but Owen held up one hand and said, "Don't bother. What I have to say won't take long."
    Obi-Wan kept his eyes on Owen as he shifted his weight back onto the eopie.
    "I'm not sure how to put this," Owen continued, "so I'm just going to say it. The way you come around my place ... it bothers me."
    Obi-Wan sighed. "I'm sorry, Owen. But as I told you, I need to make sure the boy is—"
    "Wait," Owen interrupted. "My wife and I are the ones raising Luke, right? That's what we agreed to?"
    Obi-Wan nodded as he wondered where the conversation was going.
    Owen said "Well, I didn't agree to you checking on us daily, let alone twice a day. I don't mean any disrespect, but I've been keeping Tuskens off my property for years and ... well, I just think you coming here so often is just a bad idea!"
    Keeping his voice calm, Obi-Wan said, "Owen, I assure you, I don't question your ability to handle the Tuskens. But as we've already discussed, it's not the Tuskens I'm worried about."
    "Oh, right," Owen continued. "It's the Empire. But then let me ask you something." Owen swallowed hard before he continued. "If you're so concerned about the child's well being, why don't you try staying away from us? Didn't you ever think what would happen to Luke if the Empire tracked you down and found you living in my back yard?"
    Owen's words left Obi-Wan momentarily dumbstruck. Then he shook his head and said, "Forgive me, Owen. "You're absolutely right. I'll be more careful. More discreet."
    "That's a start," Owen said. "Again, I don't mean any disrespect, but ... my wife and I can't raise Luke in any ordinary way if we know you're always lurking about. Understand?"
    "Yes," Obi-Wan said. He expected — maybe even hoped — that Owen was going to say something more, but when he didn't, Obi-Wan said, "Good night, Owen."
    Owen nodded once again, then turned and headed for the entry dome. Obi-Wan turned his eopie around and guided the creature back across the desert.

    After the krayt dragon incident:
    (p147-148)

    "This is Mr Kenobi!" Windy gasped. "He saved us from a krayt dragon!"
    Windy's mother looked up at Ben and said "Thank you, Mr Kenobi!" Windy's father patted his son on the back as he smiled gratefully at Ben.
    Ben returned the smile sheepishly, then looked to Owen. Owen glowered at him.
    Luke arrived at Beru's side and exclaimed, "Mr Kenobi told us stories about living on the Dune Sea ... it was great! Can he stay for a while?"
    Without hesitation, Owen answered firmly, "Mr Kenobi has to leave now."
    There was a moment of awkward silence. Then Beru, clearly outraged, glared at her husband and said, "Owen Lars!"
    Ignoring his wife, Owen stepped forward and grabbed Ben's upper arm. "I want you off my property," Owen said, "and don't come back!" He gave Ben a shove.
    Ben stumbled back but instantly regained his balance. Looking away from Owen, he faced Luke. Ben had hoped to talk to Luke, who looked positively stunned by Owen's behaviour. Now all Ben could manage was a slight, sad smile for Luke before he turned and walked away.
    Back home to the Jundland wastes.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 24, 2013
  14. Garrett Atkins Jedi Grand Master

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    Feb 11, 2013
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    Hey, that's great stuff, I always wanted to pick up that book, especially after The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader.
  15. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Not specifically. He just tries to change the subject about any relation between Obi-wan and Ben Kenobi. That and not wanting Luke to have the Lightsaber. It wasn't until the radio dramatization came out, that the notion of Owen forbidding Luke from having contact with Obi-wan was first posited. Then it was the ROTJ script and novelization that said that Owen resented Obi-wan, but that was when Lucas had decided to have them as brothers.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    I can't recall exactly what his warning about Kenobi is in the movie besides "That wizard's just a crazy old man" but the ANH novel has a rather more firm warning:

    "The reason I think it might be stolen is because it claims to be the property of someone it calls Obi-Wan Kenobi."
    Maybe something in the food, or perhaps the milk, caused Luke's uncle to gag. Then again, it might have been an expression of disgust, which was Owen's way of indicating his opinion of that peculiar personage. In any case, he continued eating without looking up at his nephew.
    Luke pretended the display of graphic dislike had never happened. "I thought," he continued determinedly, "it might have meant old Ben. The first name is different, but the last is identical."
    When his uncle steadfastly maintained his silence, Luke prompted him directly. "Do you know who he's talking about, Uncle Owen?"
    Surprisingly, his uncle looked uncomfortable instead of angry. "It's nothing," he mumbled, still not meeting Luke's gaze. "A name from another time." He squirmed nervously in his seat. "A name that can only mean trouble."
    Luke refused to heed the implied warning and pressed on. "Is he someone related to old Ben, then? I didn't know he had any relatives."
    "You stay away from that old wizard, you hear me!" his uncle exploded, awkwardly substituting threat for reason.
    "Owen ..." Aunt Beru started to interject gently, but the big farmer cut her off sternly.
    "Now, this is important, Beru." He turned his attention back to his nephew. "I've told you about Kenobi before. He's a crazy old man; he's dangerous and full of mischief, and he's best left well alone."
    Beru's pleading gaze caused him to quiet somewhat. "That droid has nothing to do with him. Couldn't have," he grumbled half to himself. Recording — huh!" Well, tomorrow, I want you to take the unit into Anchorhead and have its memory flushed."
    Snorting, Owen bent to his half-eaten meal with determination. "That will be the end of this foolishness. I don't care where that machine thinks it came from. I paid hard credit for it, and it belongs to us now."
    "But supposing it does belong to someone else?" Luke wondered. "What if this Obi-Wan comes looking for his droid?"
    An expression between sorrow and a sneer crossed his uncle's seasoned face at the remembrance. "He won't. I don't think that man exists any more. He died about the same time as your father." A huge mouthful of hot food was shovelled inward. "Now forget about it."
    "Then it was a real person," Luke murmured, staring down at his plate. He added slowly, "Did he know my father?"
    "I said forget about it," Owen snapped.
    I've got that novel- Obi-Wan mentions taking Luke to live with "my brother Owen" but I couldn't find anything about Owen resenting Obi-Wan- where is it and what was said?
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Sep 24, 2013
  17. Aaronaman Jedi Grand Master

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    I always thought the reason why Obi-Wan didn't look after Luke himself was because he'd just seen his former apprentice , Lukes father, pretty much bring down the Jedi and become one of the most powerful Sith the galaxy had ever seen.

    He failed with Anakin why then would he take it upon himself to raise Luke and risk losing him to the Sith like his father.

    Obi-Wan wasn't capable of raising Luke at that stage so he was much better off in the hands of people who were.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    They were going into hiding. Remember when Luke arrives on Dagobah, Sidious contacts Vader to tell him that they've got a problem. He doesn't know that Yoda is still among the living, but he knows that if Luke is able to become strong enough to be a Jedi, he will be a threat to them both. Likewise, as soon as Vader realizes that Luke exists, he begins searching for him with great fervor. They were hidden for their protection as well as to let them live among people who would treat them normally, compared to the Jedi method. When Leia's message for Obi-wan reaches him and he realizes that the Astromech droid is Artoo, he knows that the time has come.
  19. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Palpatine does actually comment on Yoda in the RoTJ novelization, after the line "You no longer need those":

    "Tell me, young Skywalker," the Emperor said when he saw Luke's first struggle had taken its course. "Who has been involved in your training until now?" The smile was thin, open mouthed, hollow.
    Luke was silent. He would reveal nothing.
    "Oh, I know it was Obi-Wan Kenobi at first," the wicked ruler continued, rubbing his fingers together as if trying to remember. Then pausing, his lips creased into a sneer. "Of course, we are familiar with the talent Obi-Wan Kenobi had, when it came to training Jedi." He nodded politely in Vader's direction, indicating Obi-Wan's previous star pupil. Vader stood without responding, without moving.
    Luke tensed with fury at the Emperor's defamation of Ben - though, of course, to the Emperor it was praise. And he bridled even more, knowing the Emperor was so nearly right. He tried to bring his anger under control though, for it seemed to please the malevolent dictator greatly.
    Palpatine noted the emotions on Luke's face and chuckled. "So, in your early training you have followed your father's path, it would seem. But alas - Obi-Wan is now dead, I believe; his elder student, here, saw to that -" again, he made a hand motion toward Vader. "So tell me, young Skywalker - who continued your training?"
    That smile, again, like a knife. Luke held silent, struggling to regain his composure.
    The Emperor tapped his fingers on the arm of the throne, recalling. "There was one called ... Yoda. An aged Master Jed ... Ah, I see by your countenance I have hit a chord, a resonant chord indeed. Yoda, then."
    Luke flushed with anger at himself, now, to have revealed so much, unwillingly, unwittingly. Anger and self-doubt. He strove to calm himself - to see all, to show nothing; only to be.
    "This Yoda," the Emperor mused. "Lives he still?"
    Luke focused on the emptiness of space beyond the window behind the Emperor's chair. The deep void, where nothing was. Nothing. He filled his mind with this black nothing. Opaque, save for the occasional flickering of starlight that filtered through the ether.
    "Ah," cried Emperor Palpatine. "He lives not. Very good, young Skywalker, you almost hid this from me. But you could not. And you can not. Your deepest flickerings are to me apparent. Your nakedest soul. That is my first lesson to you." He beamed.
    Luke wilted - but a moment. In the very faltering, he found strength. Thus had Ben and Yoda both instructed him: when you are attacked, fall. Let your opponent's power buffet you as a strong wind topples the grass. In time, he will expend himself, and you will still be upright.
    The Emperor watched Luke's face with cunning. "I'm sure Yoda taught you to use the Force with great skill."
    The taunt had the desired effect - Luke's face flushed, his muscles flexed.
    He saw the Emperor actually lick his lips at the sight of Luke's reaction. Lick his lips and laugh from the bottom of his throat, from the bottom of his soul.
    Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadn't seen before in the Emperor. Fear.
    Luke saw fear in the Emperor - fear of Luke. Fear of Luke's power, fear that this power could be turned on him - on the Emperor - in the same way that Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor - and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperor's nakedest self.
    With sudden absolute calm, Luke stood upright. He stared directly into the malign ruler's hood.
    Palpatine said nothing for a few moments, returning the young Jedi's gaze, assessing his strengths and weaknesses. He sat back at last, pleased with this first confrontation. "I look forward to completing your training, young Skywalker. In time, you will call me Master."
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 13, 2013
  20. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    I like to believe what detours would have told us, which is Obi-wan kept trying to get to Luke when he was younger, but it kept going and Obi-wan kept using the force to erase Lukes mind, which started causing problems for Luke....
  21. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

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    So you can use the force, like the MIB Neuralizer ?
  22. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    According to Seth Green

    Herest he interview

    Green: Oh yeah, but Luke is a teenager that lives in the desert with his ****ing uncle. [Laughs] He’s not the coolest kid on the block.
    Senreich: Yeah, we talked about it on our Saturday panel [Editor’s Note: There were two panels for Detours at SWCVI – one Friday, one Saturday]. He’s the guy who Obi-Wan is constantly trying to go see and teach that he has the universe to help save, and every time he tries to go there… Well, maybe that wasn’t the first time Obi-Wan had attempted to get to Luke.
    Green: That’s our thought, is that Obi-Wan never knew what the correct timing was to approach that sort of prophecy in the desert. So each time, he attempts it and it goes horribly awry. He’s just like [waving hand as if using the Force], “None of this ever happened.” And Luke starts overtime developing real gaps in his memory, and he wakes up in places and doesn’t understand why his clothes are askew. “What happened here?”
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Oct 18, 2013
  23. Yondo Kuromu Jedi Padawan

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    I thought TESB was pretty clear about it. Yoda lives on Dagobah close to the Tree near the cave because the Dark Side of the Force is strong within the area. That is why Yoda live there to shroud his presence, so Darth Vader and the Emperor can't sense him. Luke was training on Dagobah which was close to the tree, he was just tapping slightly into his Force-sensitive abilities and the Emperor had already sensed the disturbance in the Force. If Luke had been trained since an infant, the Emperor would've been able to sense where exactly he was when he was a Force powerful toddler. Not even the Tree with the dark side could shroud Luke's presence.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    That comes from the book, "Heir To The Empire". Lucas didn't adhere to the EU. So whatever reason Dagobah was chosen, odds are it probably didn't have to do with the tree.
  25. Beezer Force Ghost

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    That's the Timothy Zahn explanation, there's really nothing in the movies that supports that. The Jedi couldn't sense the Sith Lord who was right under their noses, so I doubt the Emperor could sense Yoda from thousands of light years away. Heck, the Emperor couldn't even sense Luke when they were both located in the Endor system. Vader had to inform him he sensed Luke among the rebels to which the Emperor replies "strange that I have not."
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