CT Why didnt Obi Wan(BEN KENOBI) Keep Luke

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 21, 2013.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Exactly. As I've said for years, it's not like in "Highlander" where the Immortals cannot help but sense each other all the time. The Jedi/Sith radar isn't precise.
  2. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Aug 23, 2013
    star 4
    Ultiamtely there is no good in-universe reason why Obi-wan and/or Yoda didn't take Anakin's children and start training them right away. Its a problem created by starting the story in the middle.

    Having the hero not know his parents, be raised by his aunt and uncle, and then later in life find this old man who really has great power to teach him etc... is a very classical element of myth, fairtales and heroes journey stories, so it was given to Luke. Once you start o fill in that back ground.........well just don't pull on the thread.
    Beezer likes this.
  3. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    The ROTS novel does give a good reason. Yoda and Obi-Wan realized that the Jedi Order had become stagnant and they needed to change their methods. One such change was no longer training Jedi from infancy. They wanted Luke and Leia to grow up with a normal sense of family.
  4. Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan Jedi Master

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    Oct 22, 2013
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    Agreed. That makes a big assumption too that Palpatine had no part in that combat sequence with Dooku... Consider the possibility that Anakin/Kenobi wouldn't have defeated Dooku without some type of covert assistance from Palpatine... what a tangled web we weave...
    Last edited by Vaapad Master Daeg Tynan, Oct 24, 2013
  5. Beezer Jedi Grand Master

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    And the ROTJ novel (and original screenplay) has Obi-Wan telling Luke that Owen is his brother.

    Another in a long list of reasons why it's silly to fall back on the novelizations.
  6. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Well there's nothing which contradicts that part of the ROTS novelization, so it remains canon. Mod edit: Drop the personal remarks.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Oct 27, 2013
  7. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    The whole Luke/Leia backstory really doesn't match up very well with the PT at all. It's one of the areas of the story that really breaks down IMO.

    The root of it actually isn't in the PT, it's in the decisions to make Luke, Leia and Vader all related in the first two Star Wars sequels. But then the PT doesn't do the story any favors.

    Anakin wasn't the same person we here described in ANH by a long shot. The story doesn't gel. Owen never knew Anakin until after he left. Taht isnt the backstory we were told. We were told that he disapproved of Anakin leaving to follow Kenobi in an adventure, a clear parallel to what Kenobi was asking of Luke.

    What we got was a child escaping a life of slavery. Did Owen disapprove of Anakin leaving to escape a life of slavery?
  8. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Owen probably disapproved of Anakin leaving to go to Geonosis, so "from a certain point of view," that line still works.
  9. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Clearly Anakin leaving for Geonosis isn't the point. Tatooine is not Anakin's home. Anakin is already a Jedi and has been for a decade. He's been in the middle of Jedi politics for half of his life. And Owen doesn't know him, he's a stranger to him. He is just some guy who happens to be the son of his step mother. I even think he fears him to point. Watch them when he brings home the body of his mother.

    That's not a certain point of view, that's pretending something that does not fit does. This version of Anakin isn't leaving to follow Kenobi on some fool's mission. He isn't choosing to leave his home. Owen isn't telling him to not get involved. This Anakin has been involved since he was 9. He isn't the same Anakin.

    ANH gives us a backstory that clearly does not match up with the prequels.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  10. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    What's with this "home" business?

    This is the relevant line:

    BEN That's what your uncle told you. He
    didn't hold with your father's ideals.
    Thought he should have stayed here
    and not gotten involved.

    Ben says that Owen thought Anakin should have stayed here -- meaning Tatooine. And Anakin's not just leaving to go back to the Jedi Temple -- he's leaving to fight in what will become the first battle of the Clone Wars. Clearly, in retrospect, it's not difficult to see how Owen would believe that Anakin should never have gotten involved in the war (a pretty good analog for a crusade -- much like the war Luke will soon be embroiled in) and that he should have left the Republic behind and come back to build a life on Tatooine -- where he grew up.
    You say that Owen didn't know him and while that's certainly true, Obi-Wan would only have talked to Owen after the fact, once everything was said and done -- and once Owen had been given Anakin's son to raise as a result of Anakin being "killed"/falling to the Dark Side due to his participation in the war.
    One could certainly say that Anakin choosing to fight for the Republic was a fool's mission -- in the end, the war was a sham and he would have been better off leaving the Jedi Order.
    Anakin might have been a Jedi, but that doesn't mean Owen doesn't think he shouldn't have gotten out when he still had the chance. Especially since it was Owen who was left to pick up the pieces (in the form of Luke) and had some affection for Anakin's mother.
  11. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Because it is clear that the ANH version of Anakin was related to Owen, and was leaving his home to follow Kenobi into adventure. It's a completely different story. I see no reason to pretend it's telling us something it clearly was not. Kenobi is drawing a parallel between Luke and his father. Luke is being given the same choice Anakin had, and his doubts are being dismissed by Kenobi as his uncles influence on him. He's saying you are not your uncle, you are your father. Come with me.

    The idea that this had anything to do with Anakin in AOTC is ridiculous. That Anakin had been involved for years. He had no connection to Tattooine, no reason why he would "stay there and not get involved". And Owen had no reason to care that Anakin would go on with his life as a Jedi. That's who this Anakin is.

    There was never the question of choice. Anakin went there to save his mother, failed and left.

    It's a square peg in a round hole
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  12. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    How does ANH ever imply that Owen was related to Anakin biologically? It never says he was leaving home at all -- all it states is that Owen thought that it was foolish for Anakin to get involved in the "crusade" and that Owen thought Anakin would be better off staying on Tatooine. Which he's probably right on in both counts.

    Obi-Wan is telling Luke that he's needed, that Obi-Wan himself is too old to do this and that Luke should come and become part of the fight. It's in his nature to not sit idly by on the sidelines -- as it was with his father. Owen may be content with a farmer's simple life, but Obi-Wan knows that Luke, like Anakin, never will be.

    Anakin had been involved with the Jedi for years, yes, but in peacetime. That's a big freaking difference from fighting in wartime. And, in retrospect, Owen would likely look back on that time and think that it was a damn shame that Anakin decided to go after Obi-Wan and get involved instead of just staying on Tatooine and trying to stay out of the Republic's affairs. Given what happens, it's quite an understandable sentiment.

    And Anakin had no connection to Tatooine? Are you kidding? He grew up there. His mother is buried there. If there was anywhere that Anakin might have taken up a new life outside of the Republic and the war, it would be Tatooine -- a place he was familiar with. And of course Owen would care about Anakin's choices -- because of Anakin's decision to fight in the war, Owen was left to raise his son Luke.

    It fits just fine. Owen ended up having his life significantly altered due to Anakin's choice to get involved. It's not all that surprising that he would have strong opinions on the topic.
  13. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    There is a context to that scene, a reason for it's being. Kenobi tell us a story of Anakin having the same choice that Luke has now.

    It is certainly not the story of Anakin returning to a place he ran from to escape slavery choosing not to stay with strangers.

    Where is this aspect of choice? Do we see Owen tell Anakin he should stay with them? Of course not. Tatooine is not his home, he has no connection to that place. The one thing he had a connection to, his mother, is gone. There is nothing there for him. It is not his home.

    I
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  14. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    The context of the scene is that Obi-Wan is trying to persuade Luke to get involved. He's using Anakin's history to try to motivate Luke as well by telling him that his father could not sit on the sidelines (for better or worse…and we learn it was eventually for the worse, unfortunately). The PT doesn't alter this -- this was altered by the fact that Anakin and Darth Vader were merged. Everything about ANH's early period takes on a more sinister tone because of this fact -- Anakin's fate was completely altered.

    But Owen's sentiments still make sense in context. Anakin could have chosen to escape the Republic and the war to build a simple life with Padmé on Tatooine, outside of its influence. Nothing Owen or Obi-Wan ever says indicates that he would have stayed with the Larses themselves. But Anakin saw it as his duty to defend the Republic and it's quite understandable how Owen would see this as foolhardy while Obi-Wan would be willing to use this example as a way to get Luke to help him.
  15. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    So then you're suggesting that Kenobi decided to tell Luke the story of that time Anakin went to save his mother, failed and left, as a way to persuade Luke? Because if you're saying this is what Kenobi was referring to. that is a pretty bizarre thing for Kenobi to do. If you think that makes sense, more power to you I guess.

    Clearly the story Kenobi was relating to us in ANH was nothing like that.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  16. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Errr…no. Anakin's choice to "get involved" was when he decided to follow Obi-Wan to Geonosis knowing how ****ed up the political situation was. That and his choice not to leave the Jedi Order once the war had officially broken out. HIs mother is not the "choice" in this instance. The choice that Owen is referring to is Anakin's decision to get involved in the Clone Wars, which ended up costing Anakin everything. Had Anakin stayed on Tatooine and simply handed in his resignation to the Jedi Order, he likely wouldn't have faced such a horrible fate.

    Obi-Wan is saying that Anakin couldn't sit on the sidelines when the Clone Wars broke out -- he stayed and fought. He doesn't reveal what eventually happened to him, of course, but the choice remains. Anakin didn't have to fight in the Clone Wars. No one was forcing him to -- he chose to do so and we see in ROTS that ending the war is very important to him.
  17. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    He says specifically that Owen thought he should "stay here and not get involved". So yes, that would be the story of that time Anakin was actually there. You would have me focus on the not getting involved bit, and ignore the "stay here" bit. The stay here bit was part of the story too. Why would Anakin stay on Tattooine? Even if he wasn't going to fight, why would he "stay here". Owen is never shown making such an invitation. There is absolutely nothing that even points to that choice being a possibility

    Clearly, it's a completely different story that carried a completely different meaning. So right back at square one, these two film series do not match up well there.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  18. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Here could refer to Tatooine the planet, which is outside the sphere of influence of the Republic (and the Empire in large part) -- that's what I always thought that line meant anyway. Owen didn't say stay on the farm specifically -- I never interpreted the line itself to be that specific.

    The films match up fine.
  19. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Why would he stay there? Why? The guy was there for a day or two. You're the one making the case, make it. The story was pretty specific about this, he felt Anakin should stay. Why?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  20. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Because a war had just begun that would embroil the entire Republic. If Anakin truly wanted to stay out of it, he could have chosen to move somewhere the Republic and Separatists had no presence -- Tatooine. Why Tatooine? Because he had grown up there -- he knew a bit about how the planet functioned and was governed and he had skills that he could use to make a living there (his Force powers notwithstanding, there's always pod racing or mechanics). Tatooine is a logical choice -- both for Anakin's familiarity with it and its isolation from the war.
  21. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    The war hadn't begun, neither Anakin nor Owen knew of any war at that point. How could Owen think Anakin should not be involved in a war that has not happened yet?

    Owen did not approve of his choice, so clearly there had to be a choice to disapprove of. Why would Anakin stay on Tattooine?

    They are clearly not the same story
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  22. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Yes, but Owen would only be talking to Obi-Wan in retrospect. Obi-Wan doesn't meet Owen until the Clone Wars are over. Given that Anakin's attempted rescue of Obi-Wan kicks off the first battle of the Clone Wars, it wouldn't be surprising if Owen said (upon meeting Obi-Wan in ROTS and discovering Anakin's fate) that Anakin should never have gone after Obi-Wan and gotten involved in the first place.
  23. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    No, not retrospect. Owen did not agree with Anakin's choice to leave and get involved, he thought he should have stayed on Tatooine. Clearly, there has to be a choice for that story to match up. So, why would Anakin choose to stay on Tatooine, why would that be a viable choice? To avoid war that does not yet exist? Owen thinks Anakin should know the future?


    I'm sorry, every version you put up forces me to ignore one aspect or another of the original story.

    Even in retropsect, there would have to be a viable reason why Anakin would think staying on Tatooine after bringing home the body of his mother is a logical thing to do for Kenobi's story to make sense. But the problem is, it's not. Anakin would have absolutely no reason to just stay.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  24. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Ummm…of course it would be in retrospect. Obi-Wan never talked to Owen until the Clone Wars were over. So of course Owen was going to take into account everything that had happened. Anakin made a choice in AOTC -- the choice to go after Obi-Wan, leading him to get involved in the Clone Wars that would eventually spell disaster for him and leave his son to be raised by Owen. Is it really that hard to imagine that Owen, looking at how events unfolded, tells Obi-Wan, as he accepts Luke, that Anakin made a foolish choice?

    Let me give you an example. I live in the United States, but my grandparents and estranged cousin live in France. Let's say that the political situation between the US and Canada is tumultuous and I work in the US as a member of a diplomatic unit. My grandparents are attacked in France, meanwhile, and so I head over there to try to help them but they end up dying. Meanwhile, as I am in France, the political situation between the US and Canada worsens and I find out that one of my American friends (who is also a diplomat) is in Canada and in trouble.

    In this situation, I can choose to stay in France and start a new life, leaving behind my job and friends in the US, or I can go back and get involved to help my friend, knowing that a war is about to break out. I choose to go back and fight, have a child, and am eventually killed. That friend then brings my child to the safety of France to be raised by my estranged cousin, away from the US and Canada so that it can be safe. Under such circumstances, it would not be unreasonable for my estranged cousin to believe I should have just stayed in France in the first place and not gotten involved in the US-Canadian war.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 26, 2013
  25. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Think of it from Owen's point of view. He's living a good life, moisture farming, then his stepmother gets kidnapped by the Tuskens. Anakin waltzes in, comes back with Shmi's body, then scampers off again. It's quite believable that Owen would resent Anakin for that. He might even interpret Anakin as somehow being responsible for Shmi's death.
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