CT Why didnt Obi Wan(BEN KENOBI) Keep Luke

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 21, 2013.

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  1. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    What? How would Owen blame Anakin? Anakin wasn't there. If anything, Anakin would be more likely to blame Owen for not saving his mother. How in the world could he think Anakin is responsible for Shmi's death when, as far as Owen knows, Anakin wasn't even aware that she was missing until he arrived on the Larses' doorstep?
  2. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I think Anakin does blame Owen. And I think Owen knows it. Watch the scene when he brings his mother's body home. Anakin glares at them, and they know to keep their distance.

    Of course, that probably doesn't lead to a situation where Anakin should stay there either.
  3. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Sure. It's totally possible that Anakin could blame Owen (I think he's more likely to be angry at himself for not being strong enough, but I think he's angry at a lot of people for his mother's death). But still -- "here" doesn't mean Anakin has to literally live with the Larses. I have friends whose parents lament that their children have moved so far away and that they should come back home. That doesn't mean that they want their kids to literally live in the same house as them. Often they just mean the same city or state.
  4. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    And why would Owen think he should have stayed here at all? Why Tatooine? I think they were happy he left.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    …Have you not read any of my other posts?

    Look at what happened to Anakin when he left -- he got involved in the Clone Wars and basically lost everything. And Owen was stuck raising his son. It's not hard to see why Owen thinks Anakin should have stayed out of it.

    As for why Tatooine -- again, Anakin had grown up there, so he was familiar with the way it was run and governed and (most importantly) it wasn't part of the Republic or Separatists (and was rather poor) meaning he could have been isolated from the war.
  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I've read them. I don't think that your point about Tatooine is very convincing. You have to make an argument that shows both why Owen would want Anakin to not get involved and why remaining on Tatooine was the viable alternative.

    You haven't really done that. There was no reason why Anakin would have even considered staying on Tatooine at the time that he left. It's not presented as a viable choice. There was no war, there was no home for Anakin. There was no logical reason for Anakin to entertain the idea.

    Even in retrospect, there would have been no reason he would have made that choice at the time.

    And that's because they aren't really the same story. You're just trying very hard to make them fit.

    For the story to truly fit, there had to be a viable reason for Anakin to stay AT THE TIME. It had to be a reasonable choice in front of Anakin.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  7. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Why would Owen not want Anakin to get involved in the war? Because the war left Owen raising Anakin's son. That and I'm sure Owen cared for Shmi and wouldn't want to have her son suffer such as horrible fate (as well-deserved as it was…).

    Staying on Tatooine is a viable alternative because it was a place Anakin was familiar with, that he knew the culture of, and it was isolated from the war.

    Owen doesn't have to agree with Anakin's choices. You have to remember that Owen doesn't know everything the audience knows. When he is handed baby Luke, it's not hard to imagine him telling Obi-Wan that Anakin should never have gone after him, that Anakin should never have gotten involved in the foolish crusade that the Clone Wars were, because then Luke would have his father and Anakin would still have something resembling a life. From Owen's perspective, that's a very logical stance to take. Look at the hypothetical situation I posted a little while back about the US-Canada "war" and France and you'll see what I mean.

    The story fits together very well.
  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    There was no war when Anakin left. There was no reason at the time to expect him to stay there. We keep dancing around this. Owen has to disagree with the choice to leave, because that is what Kenobi told us. Which means, staying had to be a viable choice at the time he made it,

    Now, tell me why Anakin would have stayed? Why? There was no war. For you to say it was a viable choice, there has to be a reason to make the choice. What is that reason? It's not the war, there is no war. It's not to stay home and not get involved in Jedi affairs, he's been involved for a decade.

    There is no viable reason to even conclude there was a choice for Anakin to make to disapprove of in the first place. That's the problem. It's not the same story

    Why would Anakin choose to stay?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  9. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Yes, but you have to take into account that when Obi-Wan talks to Owen, the war has ended. Anything Obi-Wan tells Luke, then, is coming from the mouth of an Owen that he seen the Clone Wars come and go. Owen was there when Anakin received his message from Obi-Wan and the Clone Wars broke out right after. When Owen is speaking to Obi-Wan, it will be from the perspective of someone who is now faced with an unexpected responsibility (Luke) because of the choices Anakin made. Namely, Anakin's choice to fight in the Clone Wars directly led to him becoming Darth Vader or dying and thus leaving Owen to raise his son. From that perspective, Owen is going to tell Obi-Wan that Anakin should never have gotten involved because the fallout was so disastrous. Anakin himself never would have stayed, but Owen thinks he should have. It was never a viable choice for Anakin because Anakin hated Tatooine. But for Owen, who has deal with the ****storm Anakin leaves behind, he's saying that Anakin should have stayed on Tatooine because things would have turned out better for him if he had.

    You can't separate the fact that anything Owen tells Obi-Wan had to have been said once the war was over and thus Owen is aware of the fact that going after Obi-Wan led to the first battle of the Clone Wars and that Anakin is now unable to take care of Luke as a direct result of his participation in the war.
  10. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    No, because even in retrospect the story only holds up if there was a viable choice for Anakin to make that involved staying. Even in retrospect, even knowing what happens to Anakin, there is no reason for Owen to say he made the wrong choice. There wasn't a choice to be made at the time.

    There is no reason for Anakin to stay on Tatooine. I'll ask it again, why would he stay?

    It's just not the same story as ANH. It's just not.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  11. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    What matters is Owen's perspective. Obi-Wan is telling Luke what Owen said to him. Of course Owen would think that Anakin made the wrong choice -- Anakin is either dead or has become Darth Vader (a fate worse than death for most). He didn't have to go after Obi-Wan at the time, but he went because he cared about his Master and the Republic -- those are his ideals and he continued to fight in the Clone Wars because of them. Owen did not agree with those ideals -- he's a simple man who didn't want to get involved in the war and he thinks Anakin would have been better off staying on Tatooine. If he had, then Anakin would still be alive and Owen wouldn't be raising his son. It's not a question of whether or not Anakin actually would have stayed, but what Owen thinks he should have done. That's what Obi-Wan says:

    "He didn't hold with your father's ideals. Thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved."

    Anakin wasn't conscripted. He made a choice to continue to fight for the Republic and to go after his Master. A choice which led to disaster and left Owen saddled with Luke. It's no wonder that Owen thinks he should have made a different choice, all things considered.
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  12. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    And why would he have stayed? Why? See, that's the problem. The staying is just as important in the ANH version as the not getting involved.It's implied that in ANH Luke is following a choice made by his father years before, to leave HOME and follow Kenobi into adventure.

    The Anakin of the prequels is faced with no such choice. If he was, he probably would have taken Padme to Naboo. But, that's because it's not the same story

    And really, you haven't come close to explaining that part away.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  13. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    What does that matter to Owen? Owen is saying this from the perspective of someone who has to deal with the fallout of Anakin's actions. It's the equivalent of adoptive parents saying that a birth parent that died in the ICU shouldn't have used heroin. They may have barely known the birth parent, but they know enough to say that it was foolish to use heroin as it directly led to that person's death. And left their child an orphan needing an adoptive family.

    As to why Anakin would have stayed, there's a number of reasons -- if he left the Jedi Order, he could get married and start a family, he could avoid fighting in a war, this would also minimize his risk of death. He would be free to do whatever he wanted. Heck, he could go back and pod race if he wanted to. Whatever. All that is irrelevant, though, because given Anakin's fate, Owen doesn't need to have known him very well to say that he should have made different choices given how poorly his life turned out.
  14. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    It matters because it mattered when Kenobi was telling us the story. See why it's a problem? It's Kenobi relaying us the part about "staying here". It's an important aspect of the story he is telling Luke.

    The prequels just tell us a very different story, one in which there is absolutey no reason Anakin would "stay here". None.

    An OT apple to a PT orange.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  15. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Not at all. Obi-Wan is simply relaying what Owen believes Anakin should have done. This doesn't necessarily mean that Anakin would have ever made those choices. Obi-Wan is contrasting Owen's simplicity and isolation with Anakin's need to get involved. It works perfectly in that context. You're free to believe it doesn't, but my explanation works perfectly for me and I've never had any trouble reconciling these films. They fit as one story.
  16. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    What Kenobi is doing is highlighting the difference between Owen and Anakin to Luke. He is saying that your father faced this same choice and came with me, and you are your father. Don't listen to your uncle's influence. Be your father's son That's the point. The whole point. He is telling Luke how Anakin left home, and how Luke should now do the same.

    Hence the "stay here" part.

    The PT tells us the story of a guy who spent a day on the planet after escaping from there ten years earlier as a slave and how he should have made the choice to stay there.............................

    Which isn't quite true, the PT doesn't really address that aspect of ANH at all

    One of these things is not like the other.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  17. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    What, exactly, is inconsistent? Obi-Wan is trying to persuade Luke to come so he tells him of how his father was involved with the Clone Wars -- this is consistent as Anakin deeply cared about bringing the Clone Wars to an end. At the same time, he's telling Luke that he shouldn't listen to his uncle because his uncle is an isolationist who doesn't believe in involving himself in the galaxy and thinks Luke's father would have been better off doing the same -- again, given the PT, not hard to see how Owen came to this conclusion.

    And as I said before, no one forced Anakin to fight in the Clone Wars. He wasn't conscripted, he made a choice. He and Owen just happen to have had very different ideals.

    Obi-Wan isn't telling Luke that Anakin left home -- the word home is never used. He's contrasting Anakin and Owen's philosophies -- Anakin couldn't sit by the sidelines while Owen believes both Anakin and Luke would be better off if they just stayed on Tatooine away from the fighting.

    There is no inconsistency. For some reason, you believe that what Obi-Wan says involves Anakin leaving home. It doesn't. Such a word is never mentioned -- that is simply your interpretation. What is being contrasted in the scene are Anakin and Owen's world views -- Anakin as an interventionist, involving himself in galactic affairs, and Owen as an isolationist who believe that men are better off keeping away from that sort of trouble.
  18. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    What is inconsistent is exactly what I just said. That an important aspect of the story was that Anakin LEFT HOME TO FOLLOW ME and now you should to.

    The word home doesn't have to be used. It's the point of the story. And it's why the aspect of "staying here" is there in the first place, to parallel Luke's own choice to either go or stay.

    In the greater story, the whole point of the scene is the decision to either stay home or follow your destiny. It's a choice his father faced before him, and the choice he now must make, it's the whole point.

    It certainly had nothing to do with a Jedi returning home where he was a slaveboy 10 years earlier for a day.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  19. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Where are you getting the word "home"? This is never mentioned in the script. Obi-Wan is telling Luke not to sit on the sidelines like Owen wants him to -- to do what his father did, instead, and get involved. That doesn't mean that Anakin had to leave home to do so.

    Obi-Wan is contrasting the choice of doing something or doing nothing. Both Anakin and Luke faced this choice. Anakin didn't have to get involved in the Clone Wars -- he chose to do so. Obi-Wan is urging Luke to make a similar choice regarding the galactic civil war and not stay on Tatooine like his uncle wants him to (and what his uncle thinks Anakin should have done -- with good reason).

    It's got nothing to do with leaving home -- it's about choosing to get involved and make a difference.
  20. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    It was the whole reason why the opposite of getting involved was to "stay here". Here was his home. Those words held a meaning in ANH.

    It's why you can't come up with a good alternate reason why Anakin would have chosen to stay there on the day he left. There was none in your version. The war didn't happen yet, Anakin had no home there, and his mother was dead. There was absolutely no reason the man would choose to stay. He had nothing there.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  21. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Considering the word "home" was never used, why would you conclude that? That's merely an interpretation. Tatooine represents the "wild-west" -- it's separated and isolated from civilization. It's the planet that's farthest from the bright center of the universe. It's where nothing ever really happens. That's exactly why Owen wants Luke to stay there -- because it represents isolation and not getting involved. He thinks Anakin should have stayed there as well because then he could have avoided the war. But the choice is between choosing to contribute to a cause and choosing to stay on the sidelines. Which is what Tatooine represents.

    I agree that words hold meaning in ANH. And the word "home" was never used.
  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    The reason he would stay if he didn't get invovled is because it's his home. Why would he stay in your version again? To avoid a war that had not yet begun? Should he have just stayed wherever he was? At any time?

    No, ANH was a well made film that told us a very clear story, one the prequels essentially ignored in that aspect.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  23. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    To avoid involvement in the war and have a family. But again -- my point was that Obi-Wan was talking about Owen's perspective. And from Owen's perspective, Anakin should have stayed considering his life went down the drain from getting involved in the Clone Wars.
  24. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    So wherever he was he just should have stayed? A place being your home is a good reason to stay and not get involved. What's yours again? Why would Anakin stay to avoid this war that had not yet started?
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  25. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    No. As I've said ten times before -- Tatooine was a good choice to stay because Anakin was familiar with it and it was not part of the Republic or the Separatists, meaning that Anakin could have avoided the war. Every other planet we see in the PT is either on the Separatist or Republic side.

    And again, this is from Owen's perspective. He's saying that, considering Anakin either died or became Darth Vader due to his involvement in the Clone Wars, the man would have been better off never participating in them in the first place.
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