CT Why didnt Obi Wan(BEN KENOBI) Keep Luke

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 21, 2013.

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  1. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    There was no war when he left, we're just dancing from the left foot to the right foot. Why would he stay to avoid the future? If I get hit by a car tomorrow, would people find fault in my decision to leave home?

    Actually that's not even the analogy, if I stayed at a hotel and then got hit by a car, would people have thought I should have spent the rest of my life at that hotel?

    I guess your version of Owen might
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 26, 2013
  2. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    *Sigh*

    Yes. I know. But when Obi-Wan talks to Owen, it is after the Clone Wars are over -- that is when he would have found out Owen's views on Anakin's choices. When Obi-Wan relays this information to Luke in ANH -- those are the views he tells Luke. Obi-Wan is incapable of getting Owen's opinion of Anakin's departure in AOTC because he did not know Owen then.

    It's like this: let's say I join the military and I end up getting killed. I knew when I joined up that there was a chance I could die. It's not unreasonable then for someone in the future to say I shouldn't have joined up -- I should have just stayed behind and not gotten involved -- even if back home there was nothing left for me and joining the military was my lifelong dream. Why? Because if I hadn't joined the military, I would still be alive.

    Owen is criticizing Anakin's choice to get involved instead of leading a quiet, comfortable, safe life. Obi-Wan is telling Luke not to be like his uncle -- to follow his father and choose to get involved. It's that simple.
  3. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    I understand that you are saying it's Owen's point of view in retrospect, but even in retrospect there has to be a reason for Owen to think Anakin had an option to stay on Tatooine. A reason to make that choice. There isn't.

    Your military analogy doesn't quite fit, because Anakin is already a Jedi. He's been one for years. And he isn't leaving to get involved, he's already involved. And Tatooine is not his home, his only connection to Tatooine just died. There is no reason for the man to stay there. Even if you don't think he should go to war, the logica choice then in the PT would be to step down from the order and move to Naboo and live a quiet life with Padme.

    At no point does your version ever come close to addressing the importance of the phrase "stay here". The man had to think staying here was the better option. Not only was it not a better option, it was an option nether character would have even considered at the time Anakin left. And in ANH it was, because it was the character's home. The fact that the PT botched it is neither here nor there given that the context of this conversation is really "did the PT botch this".

    Did we ever see Owen say anything to Anakin about staying on Tatooine? No, it wouldn't have made sense to. And it would make no sense for Owen to judge Anakin's decision to leave harshly either.

    They just are not the same story.


    It should probably be noted too, when Kenobi tells us that story he says his uncle thought, past tense, thought Anakin should not have gotten involved.

    He's telling us Owen did not approve of the decision Anakin was making AT THE TIME. Not in hindsight. He's telling us they did not agree on Anakin's decision to leave. Not the results, the decision.

    again, not the same story
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 27, 2013
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  4. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Anakin is already a Jedi, but that doesn't mean he wants to fight in a war. He has a choice to leave before getting involved in a "crusade." To Owen, there's likely little reason to go and fight when he could have a safe and comfortable life on Tatooine.

    Anakin's not trapped by his job as a Jedi -- he won't be executed for leaving the service (in fact, Obi-Wan threatens him with expulsion in AOTC). It's like if you were in the America military in 2001 and suddenly 9/11 happens and you have a choice to stay and fight or leave (which is the choice Anakin faced) -- if you ended up killed in action, it wouldn't be all that unreasonable for people to say you should have gotten out when you had a chance. Being a "keeper of the peace" is an entirely different job than a soldier.

    Naboo wouldn't work because it was a Republic world. It would have necessarily been involved in the fighting (especially since it's the Chancellor's home world, I doubt it would have gone unacknowledged by the Separtists -- especially since Nute Gunray once invaded it).

    The importance of the phrase "stay here" is that Tatooine is removed -- it's the wild, untamed country where the politics of the Republic and Empire don't reach. That's why Owen wants Luke to stay -- he doesn't want Luke involved. Do you really think he wants Luke to stay there because it's "home"? How many parents do you know who want their children to live with them in their home indefinitely? Very few I would hope. No, Owen wants Luke to be safe and he is safe on Tatooine precisely because it is isolated. Obi-Wan is urging him to move away from that isolation and make a difference in the galaxy as his father once did when he chose to fight.

    The PT didn't botch this fact.
  5. PiettsHat Force Ghost

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    Can you please stop editing your posts after I have replied? I quote your entire posts and then I keep finding that several minutes after I reply you've edited it. If you have something to add, then simply add it to your rebuttal of my reply.

    Why wouldn't it make sense for Owen to judge Anakin's decision to leave harshly after the fact? Owen got stuck raising Luke because of Anakin's decisions and Anakin was left with a fate worse than death. Of course he's going to judge harshly once it's all said and done and the clone wars are over.

    Kenobi uses the past tense because this is what Owen relayed to him in ROTS -- they never talked before then and given Owen's hostility towards Obi-Wan, I doubt they maintained contact. So of course Obi-Wan is going to use past tense.

    You can interpret it as Owen's thoughts AT THE TIME, but there's no evidence in the film to support this as the only interpretation. My interpretation works just as well as yours. Obi-Wan is relaying Owen's feelings about Anakin's choices in hindsight. Because results do matter. Owen wouldn't be raising Luke had Anakin not died as a direct result of his participation in the Clone Wars.
    Last edited by PiettsHat, Oct 27, 2013
  6. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    He didn't actually get stuck doing anything. They chose to accept Luke.

    And it's not the decision to go to war that I'm having a hard time accepting Owen wouldn't like. It's this insistence that he would believe Anakin would stay on Tatooine as an alternative. It simply makes no sense. Anakin had zero reason to stay there. None. He has as much reason to be on Tatooine as I do.

    And that is as much a part of the story Kenobi relays to us as the not getting involved part was. That he believed Anakin should have stayed on the planet. There has to be substance to that as well, beyond things went bad since he left. But there isn't.

    There was no war at the time, there was nothing keeping Anakin on the planet. Owen was a stranger to him, he wouldn't care what Anakin did. He was probably happy to be rid of the guy, I still think he knew enough to fear him when he came back with his mother.

    Anakin staying on Tatooine was never going to happen. It wasn't a choice to be turned down.

    It's not the same story, this isn't the same Anakin we hear about in ANH. Anakin and Owen don't know each other, Owen doesn't disapprove of Anakin's decision to leave because there is no reason he wouldn't. This Anakin does not leave Tatooine to follow Kenobi into adventure. He came to Tatooine as a Jedi bodyguard protecting a woman who was targeted by the most evil men in the universe for death. He's already neck deep in it.

    And Kenobi wouldn't bother telling Luke this convoluted tale. The story of the choice that was no choice. What would you call the story? The tale of the boy who had no reason to stay on the planet, but probably should have anyway? It makes no sense.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 27, 2013
  7. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi certainly hints at that. Owen and Ben have a conversation, during the period in which Hett is marauding, in which Ben clears up that Jedi don't usually act the way Anakin did- and Owen seems to think that isn't a particularly good thing:

    Owen glanced back to his own home, then returned his gaze to Ben. "Normally, I'd tell you to get lost. But I just got word from a friend in Bestine. The Sand People attacked another farm." Owen looked away again. "Only one survivor," he continued. "A little girl. But she didn't last long."
    Ben sighed. "I'm sorry, Owen."
    "I'm not finished!" Owen roared, his eyes now blazing at Ben. The edge of Owen's upper lip quivered nervously.
    He's not just angry, Ben realised. He's terrified.
    Owen licked his lips before he continued. "The little girl ... she said she saw one of the Sand People, maybe their chief. She said he ... he used two 'laser swords.'"
    Over the last three days since Ben's last exchange with Qui-Gon Jinn's spirit, Ben had had plenty of time to consider the possibility that A'Sharad Hett was involved in the recent killings. Still, hearing Owen's description of the marauder's leader made him feel suddenly queasy.
    Oblivious to Ben's discomfort, Owen said through clenched teeth, "I don't suppose you've heard about any missing lightsabers on the planet, Mr Jedi?"
    "Get a hold of yourself, Owen," he said, keeping his voice calm. "You know I had nothing to do with the attacks."
    "Maybe not!" Owen said bitterly. "But I have some idea of what Jedi are capable of!"
    "You're talking about Anakin," Ben said, "About what he did after he learned that his mother had been taken by Tuskens." It wasn't a question.
    Owen winced, then he scowled at the ground. "Shmi Skywalker was a good woman." he said. "We tried to rescue her, but my father ..." The words caught in his throat, and he left the sentence unfinished. Tilting his chin in the direction of the entry dome, he continued, "When Anakin brought Shmi's body home, I'll never forget the look on his face. If killing me would have brought her back to life, I know he would have killed me then and there. I could see it in his eyes."
    Ben grimaced. "Anakin never told me what really happened, Owen. Please trust that what he did that day was not the way of the Jedi."
    "Well, I'm not so sure if that's a relief," Owen said. "Much as I didn't like the way he looked at me, I like the idea of Tuskens with lightsabers even less. There's not a person on Tatooine who wouldn't be happy if all the Tuskens were dead."
    Ben offered no response. He knew that the deaths of Tuskens would not bring him any happiness, but he didn't believe there was any reason in explaining this to Owen.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 27, 2013
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  8. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    He definitely gives them that look. It's clear as day.
  9. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    And then the first thing Yoda says to him "He is too old to begin the training". Plus they are risking.......ANYTHING happening to those 2 children in teh 20 years they are off doing nothing in the desert and swamp.
  10. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    ...which is why Obi-Wan lived nearby so he could keep a watchful eye on Luke.
  11. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    But he wasn't with him every day making sure, and neither Obi-wan or Yoda were there to watch Leia.
  12. timmoishere Force Ghost

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    Evidently they were putting all of their eggs in Luke's basket. Regardless, the reasons why Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't train Luke and Leia from infancy are well-established: They wanted the kids to grow up with a normal sense of family, to better counteract the way that the Sith had evolved their methods.
  13. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    There's good reasons for not being with Luke every day:

    p106-108 The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi:

    "Hello, Owen," Obi-Wan said as he brought the eopie to a halt. "Is something wrong?"
    Owen nodded once. Obi-Wan began to dismount, but Owen held up one hand and said, "Don't bother. What I have to say won't take long."
    Obi-Wan kept his eyes on Owen as he shifted his weight back onto the eopie.
    "I'm not sure how to put this," Owen continued, "so I'm just going to say it. The way you come around my place ... it bothers me."
    Obi-Wan sighed. "I'm sorry, Owen. But as I told you, I need to make sure the boy is—"
    "Wait," Owen interrupted. "My wife and I are the ones raising Luke, right? That's what we agreed to?"
    Obi-Wan nodded as he wondered where the conversation was going.
    Owen said "Well, I didn't agree to you checking on us daily, let alone twice a day. I don't mean any disrespect, but I've been keeping Tuskens off my property for years and ... well, I just think you coming here so often is just a bad idea!"
    Keeping his voice calm, Obi-Wan said, "Owen, I assure you, I don't question your ability to handle the Tuskens. But as we've already discussed, it's not the Tuskens I'm worried about."
    "Oh, right," Owen continued. "It's the Empire. But then let me ask you something." Owen swallowed hard before he continued. "If you're so concerned about the child's well being, why don't you try staying away from us? Didn't you ever think what would happen to Luke if the Empire tracked you down and found you living in my back yard?"
    Owen's words left Obi-Wan momentarily dumbstruck. Then he shook his head and said, "Forgive me, Owen. "You're absolutely right. I'll be more careful. More discreet."
    "That's a start," Owen said. "Again, I don't mean any disrespect, but ... my wife and I can't raise Luke in any ordinary way if we know you're always lurking about. Understand?"
    "Yes," Obi-Wan said. He expected — maybe even hoped — that Owen was going to say something more, but when he didn't, Obi-Wan said, "Good night, Owen."
    Owen nodded once again, then turned and headed for the entry dome. Obi-Wan turned his eopie around and guided the creature back across the desert.
  14. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    Not the strongest argument from a canon stand point

    The argument also doesn't address why they would even both giving Luke to Owen int he first place.


    No they aren't, nor is that a good reason.

    Luke was raised with his uncle and aunt because its a hero journey/myth troupe that Lucas wanted to include. They didn't pay young Leia any attention because Lucas hadn't figured out the Luke/Leia/Vader Connection when he made ANH. It makes infinately more sense for Luke and Leia to be trained, if not from birth long before they are in their 20's, and before they both involved in a Rebellion, risking their lives getting noticed by Vader and Palpatine (you do realize that had Luke been trained from an early age, he probably wouldn't have been at the battle of Yavin, he wouldn't have made himself known until he was ready to deal with Vader and palpatine etc.... It was the way they did it that put vader adn Palpatine on Lukes trail before he was ready.....) etc... Its a thread you just dont pull because it doesn't make sense.
  15. Alessandro Sanfilippo Jedi Master

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    ON ESB, Yoda tells luke he has been watching him all the time,
    So this can be used
    timmoishere said:
    Evidently they were putting all of their eggs in Luke's basket. Regardless, the reasons why Obi-Wan and Yoda didn't train Luke and Leia from infancy are well-established: They wanted the kids to grow up with a normal sense of family, to better counteract the way that the Sith had evolved their methods.
  16. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    You remember in ESB when, the moment Luke begins serious training with Yoda, the Emperor explains "There is a great disturbance in the Force. We have a new enemy."

    If training a Skywalker sends up massive "disturbances" for the Sith to sense- it makes sense to wait as long as possible, and keep the training period as short as possible.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 28, 2013
  17. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    And did the force tell Palpatine that Luke Skywalker was the one training? Seems more likely that Palpatine had spies to inform him about this new Rebel Hero who carried a lightsaber and used the force to blow up the death star after switching off his targetting computer. Vader could tell Luke was strong with the force in ANH, didn't know it was his son.

    Also, Palpatine and Vader have that talk before Luke knows Yoda is who he is and starts training so......no, it wasn't Lukes training that created a disturbance in the force.
  18. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    In the novel, Yoda's talk with Luke, ending in "You will be" takes place just before Vader's talk with the Emperor. Haven't watched the movie recently- does it change the order of events?

    Being able to tell that "The Force is strong with this one" isn't the same as sensing "a great disturbance in the Force", in this case.

    May even have been Luke's arrival on Dagobah, or Yoda's decision to train Luke, that sent up the "great disturbance" - the point being - that in order for Luke to survive to maturity - there needs to be no such disturbances to draw the Empire's attention.

    At least, this is the impression I get from watching the ESB movie- that Luke was not sensed by The Emperor until then.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 28, 2013
  19. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    So even in the novel the training hasn't started by the time they have that talk.

    In the movie have Luke telling R2 to watch over the camp whil ehe goes with Yoda, Han and Leia Kiss, then Vader and Palpatine talk, then we get LUke in Yoda's house while R2 peaks in.

    What decision? Wouldn't Yoda have decided that long ago? And if training was this big of a thing, didn't Vader feel it? Why didn't Palpatine feel it when they were on the Falcon or when Luke got his Lightsaber? And as I said, EVEN if Palpatine sensed him because of the training, who told him it was Luke Skywalker? And if he couldt ell through the force it was Luke why couldn't he also tell it was Yoda training him? Vader (maybe Palpatine) do mention Obi-wan training Luke but never Yoda. Its almost as if they had no idea Yoda was still alive.........

    Sure, but there is ZERO evidence that Luke starting training caused the disturbances, and there is evidence that it didn't. Plus the fact that Palpatine knew his name but not where he was.......that indicate that he probably had spies to fill him in, in which cause NOT training him since birth played a role in alternating the bad guys to his existence. As I said, ultimate it doesn't make sense for Obi-wan and Yoda NOT to be involved with Luke and Leia, its a plot hole (at the very least a weak element) that exists only as a storytelling point.
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Oct 28, 2013
  20. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Tatooine was his home and his mother's home. The planet is located in the Outer Rim, which the Republic hasn't taken an interest in, in a long time. This is even true back when ANH was made. In the deleted scenes with Luke, Biggs and their friends, Luke is told that the Empire has no care for planets in the Outer Rim. Thus the war would never reach there. TPM established that on screen with Shmi telling Qui-gon and Padme that the Republic has never taken notice of the Outer Rim and thus slavery still existed, among other things. So when Obi-wan says that Owen felt that Anakin shouldn't have gotten involved in the Clone Wars, we know why it was based on the events of the PT. By the time the Clone Wars had ended, the Republic became the Empire and was controlled by the Sith. The Jedi Order was wiped out. Padme was dead and Anakin paid a dear price for his choice to get involved in the politics of war. The exact nature of what it was all about was vague and in reading the three "Making Of" books, there was some back and forth on this part. But it was always clear that Anakin went off and fought in the wars.

    Though there was no war at the time, the threat of war was inevitable. During the year leading up to the start of AOTC, Count Dooku began talking about creating the Separatist cause and seceding from the Republic. Days before the Clone Wars began on Geonosis, there was talk in the Senate about creating an army to deal with the threats of the Separatists. Tensions were at an all time high and hadn't been that way in a thousand years. These bits of news had made their way to the Outer Rim. Owen knew about them which is why he wasn't fond of Anakin going off to fight in war, once he found out that happened on Geonosis. So when Obi-wan and Owen talk, he tells him that he felt that Anakin should have stayed home and not gotten involved.

    As to home, home is wherever you consider it. Tatooine was Anakin's home as much as Naboo and Coruscant was. I still consider home to be the town I was born in and the town I lived in for ten years, as much as where I live these days. Even though I haven't lived in the earlier ones in a long time.

    Vader wasn't aware of Luke until he could feel the Force within him, as he was trying to shoot him down. Once that was done, Vader began searching for the identity of Red 5 and once that was obtained, he began searching for Luke in earnest. Sidious was aware of Luke, but didn't start believing him to be a threat until he arrived on Dagobah and before meeting Yoda. The Jedi let them be hidden away for their protection and to let them grow up with families, rather than rushing them into training. As Yoda says, "Until the time is right, disappear we will." The time was not right until Artoo brought Leia's message to Obi-wan.
    Last edited by darth-sinister, Oct 28, 2013
  21. Iron_lord Chosen One

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    Palpatine does in the RoTJ novel- as I mentioned earlier in the thread:

  22. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    Tatooine wasn't his home, Tatooine was where he lived as a slave, a life he fled and never looked back at until he sensed his mother's danger. To call that his home is a nonstarter.

    A fact that gets pointed out every time the idiocy of Tatooine as a hiding place for Luke is discussed. People just do back flips trying to defend the logic of these films.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 28, 2013
  23. sluggo1313. Jedi Grand Master

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    So now its just showing up on Dagobah that Palpatine felt? Why wouldn't Obi-wan and Luke both being on Tatooine set him off?

    Yoda and Obi-wan could have protected the children just as easy (probably better) then who they ended up with. Luke was with his step-Uncle (who knew Anakin for what, 7 hours?) and Leia was with an adopted family. Its not like either was with their FAMILY.

    Thats the point/issue - there is nothing that made that time wrong, and it really doesn't make sense the way they did things, but it was already set up that way so....

    That novel line doesn't help your point That line implies that Palpatine didn't know about Yoda until that moment, and if he was so attuned to the force that he not only felt Luke meet Yoda, but somehow knew that it was Luke he was feeling (someone he didn't know until then) how did he not know it was Yoda there as well?
    Last edited by sluggo1313., Oct 28, 2013
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    That is his home, regardless of being a slave. Do you even understand what the concept of home is? Home is where you have roots. Home is where you have good memories as well as bad. Home is where you have some form or attachment to. Between 1987 and 1997, I lived in a town that had both good and bad memories. And even though I haven't been there since 1999, I still consider it my home. For Anakin, it was home. His mother lived there. He grew up there for as long as he could remember. He had friends there. He raced pods there. And to say that Anakin never looked back, is to misunderstand his character. He was always looking back. That's why he tells Padme that he still holds Naboo in high esteem, even though he hadn't been there in ten years. Because it held such strong memories for him. Just as life on Tatooine did for him as well.


    Vader has no reason to go to Tatooine any more, because that part of his life is over. He no longer cares for the things that he did in his previous life. The same with Naboo. Tatooine was the perfect place to hide Luke, because it was outside of the Empire and Vader didn't know he had any children that survived.

    Palpatine can sense a disturbance now because at this moment, everything is starting to become critical. Anakin Skywalker is starting to awaken in Darth Vader. Luke is going to Yoda for training in the Jedi Arts, which will now proceed in earnest. It was not Obi-wan's destiny to train Luke. Even he could sense that on the Death Star, which is why he insisted that he go alone and he said what he said to Luke, on his way out. Palpatine's ability to use the Force is starting to diminish.

    Owen was Luke's family because Cliegg married Shmi. It doesn't matter how long you know each other, once you're family, that's it. You are family. And adopted families are just as much a family as getting married and starting a family of your own. To place such arbitrary rules on matters such as this, indicates to me that you don't really understand the family dynamic. My step father's family was part of my family, even if we didn't get along. My late grandfather's third wife and her family are part of my family, even though he's been dead for four years come November. My father's wife and her family are part of my family. My cousins and their families are part of my family.
  25. Placeholder Force Ghost

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    That is not his home. Watch the movie, watch what he says about the place. His speech about the nature of sand. The fact that he never once went back. That is not his home.

    And five seconds later you take the opposite approach, you pick and choose when it's convenient to make the home argument. He had no reason to stay there as Anakin either. In fact, it's the exact same situation. You just want to defend the logic of the film, and you just proved that

    What is there for him on Tatooine is the same in both instances. His relationship to the planet is the same. His mother is gone. It's the same place. Exactly the same place
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 28, 2013
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