CT Why didnt Obi Wan(BEN KENOBI) Keep Luke

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Alessandro Sanfilippo, Sep 21, 2013.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    He never went back because he was forbidden to go back. All potential Jedi are admitted to the Temple, but they are not allowed to have contact with their families because of the Code, which forbids attachments and thus contact with their family. When Anakin was admitted, he was told that he couldn't go back home. As to sand, that doesn't mean anything other than he dislikes sand. That doesn't make it his home any less. Again, home is where you have roots. Where you have ties.

    No, it is because things have changed within him between when he went to war and when he became an agent of evil. All of the things that happened on Mustafar resulted in his becoming truly evil and with Padme gone, he stops being Anakin Skywalker and becomes Darth Vader. He is severing ties to his past because of what it represents. His failure to save his mother and his wife, because he was not as powerful as he wanted to be.


    He leaves Tatooine again because he went off to fight in the Clone Wars. He doesn't stay because of that. He could have chosen to stay, but didn't because of his duty to the galaxy at large. He still believed in the Jedi Code which placed duty above personal self interest. He placed the welfare of the galaxy ahead of himself clear up until his dreams began.
  2. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    What was there for him again???

    Show me even one thing, one line in the movie, anything, that points to Anakin seeing Tatooine as an option. Anything that shows even remotely a connection to the place.

    The scenes in which Anakin describes his feelings on sand has a much deeper meaning than " he just doesn't like sand" come on..........................
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 29, 2013
  3. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

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    The last chapter of Dark Lord, The Rise of Darth Vader, shows Obi-Wan sitting in a bar. He overhears some folks at the next booth talking about Darth Vader, which prompts Obi-Wan to panic, because he didn't realize Anakin had survived Mustafar. He fears for Luke's safety, but then Qui-Gon's voice speaks to him, assuring Obi-Wan that Vader will never return to Tatooine because of all the horrible memories he has of the place.
  4. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    A hollow attempt in the EU to patch an obvious plot hole in the film. It really doesn't make a lot of sense. His strongest pain would be over the loss of his wife, and he lived with her on Corcusant.

    EU explanations usually ring hollow

    Althought the point remains, Anakin's relationship to the planet is really no different from Vader's. What's true of Vader is generally true of Anakin. There is nothing there for either of them
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 29, 2013
  5. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

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    It's not hollow, it's official. You can't dismiss it just because you don't like it.
  6. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    Yes, I can. And I do.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 29, 2013
  7. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

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    By that logic you can dismiss Jar Jar if you don't like his presence in the films. But your dismissal doesn't change the fact that he is a part of the film and a part of the saga. The explanation given at the end of Dark Lord is just as valid as Jar Jar. Childishly denying it won't accomplish anything.
  8. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    Valid to you perhaps. You don't speak for me. Neither does Lucas. The way his company chooses to merchandise their products is no concern of mine.

    Childish......................interesting.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 29, 2013
  9. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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    OK, let's drop the personal remarks and get this thread back on topic.
  10. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    Back on topic, the story breaks down when it comes to the origins of Luke, Leia, and the choices made on their behalf. If the question is, why does Kenobi not take Luke on himself, the even greater question of why they would choose to place Luke on that planet comes with it. The story makes little sense in this regard.

    When a person goes into witness protection, they don't go live with family in their father's old hometown. They cut any and all ties to their life and are put in a place that has no connection to their identity, and that is what the Jedi would have done with Luke and Leia. In the case of Luke, they put him in the most obvious place they could have, and in Leia they put her in a place of high visibility and prominence. Neither choice makes sense.

    If there is ever a reason for the Empire to start looking into the possibility of Skywalker offspring, Tatooine is going to be on the top of places to start an investigation.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 29, 2013
  11. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Yoda approves putting Luke with Owen & Beru since it's "as close to family as the boy can come" (RoTS novel).

    (My guess is that Padme's family on Naboo, as inhabitants of the Emperor's homeworld- is a little too high-profile.)

    As to why Kenobi didn't convince Owen and Beru to leave Tatooine and go into hiding- there's no explanation given. Still, a planet is far bigger than a "hometown". And I could see Owen, who has lived on Tatooine all his life as far as we know, not wanting to leave.
    Last edited by Iron_lord, Oct 30, 2013
  12. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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    Yep. Supposedly not Vader - there's the explanation that he wants nothing to do with the place as there's too many painful memories, and I'm happy to accept that - but even if Palps wasn't aware that the child/twins survived, he certainly would have had some sort of ongoing interest in Anakin's background.

    While there's something to be said about the old 'hiding in plain sight' strategy, it strikes me as an overly risky move to place Luke with already known relatives of the Skywalker family. Given the storyline we were presented with, it would have made more sense for Yoda and Obi-Wan to hide out on Dagobah and raise at least one of the twins themselves, with the opportunity to train him/her as a Jedi from birth - so to answer the OP, that would have been a smarter option, IMHO.

    Or maybe Anakin should never have come from Tatooine to begin with - then this miserable speck of a planet (as Vader refers to it in the original SW radio drama) light years away from nowhere would be the perfect place for an exiled Jedi and the offspring of Darth Vader to hide out.

    Of course, GL made it all up as he went, so there's inconsistencies - and it's not just OT vs PT, the OT itself doesn't match up perfectly once you bring Father Vader into the picture. It doesn't bother me, but I'm not going to deny the inconsistencies exist.
  13. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

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    There's also the theory out forth by Corran Horn in the novel I, Jedi. He theorizes that Luke was allowed to retain the Skywalker name as a way to bait Vader into another confrontation with Obi-Wan.
  14. Darth_Nub Manager Emeritus

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    In-universe, I could see Darth Vader and Obi-Wan Kenobi facepalming simultaneously if they heard that theory - then trolling Corran Horn on GFFA Twitter.


    Last edited by Darth_Nub, Oct 30, 2013
  15. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    It's a little hard to take that position when the fact is they put the child in the home. So it doesn't matter how big the planet is, the fact remains.

    And even if they moved to the other side of the planet, you're only taking half the equation into the account. You bring up the issue of scale, town vs planet. but you also have to apply that jump in scale to the other side. The empire is an organization with literally galactic scale resources. So it's not like they are the FBI. More like a million FBI's. The scale issue effects all aspects of the equation, not just one.

    If you are truly trying to protect this child from the Emperor, or from Vader, or from any agency connected to the Empire, you cannot place the child on that planet. It's a plot hole, a very large one.

    Now, as has been mentioned both my myself and by Nub, the origins of this plot hole rest in the OT. The PT didn't do itself any favors doubling down on it.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 30, 2013
  16. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Knight

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    Well, at the beginning of ROTS we find out that Anakin has told Palpy all about his mother and the sand people, at the end of the movie Palpy knows that Padme is dead and burried/burned pregnant and the only remaining connection with Anakin's background are the Jedi which were destroyed. I don't think there is any background he could explore.

    Of course it does. Padme is dead as is his unborn child. His mother died on Tatooine, there are just those Lars' people he doesn't care about. Why would anyone look for a child that died with Padme?
    Iron_lord likes this.
  17. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    The films make it clear that the children had to be hidden and proteced. It's a part of the story. Since that goal is a stated goal of the characters, the story must be consistent in that manner. The character's actions and motivations should be consistent with that goal. Breakdowns in that type of logic are the very definition of plot hole. Fans defend this logic because they have a vested interest in it. Some are more inclined to do it than others.

    Plot holes don't necessarily mean a story is bad. Lots of films and books have them. But fans often shield their eyes from this type of thing. It is what it is.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 30, 2013
  18. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

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    Vader didn't know that the children had survived until shortly after ANH, when he learned Luke was the one who blew up the Death Star. So the best way to keep Luke and Leia safe was to let them have as normal an upbringing as possible, and not to train them in the ways of the Force yet. The Jedi Order had grown too insular, too detached from reality, and part of the cause of that was their habit of training Jedi from a very young age. Giving Luke and Leia a solid family foundation first would help them in the goal of becoming the kind of Jedi who could defeat the Emperor and Vader.
  19. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    It doesn't matter. If the films say that the children had to be hidden, then the films need to show them actually being hidden. Tatooine is not a hiding place. It's one of a handful of ground zero's where any investigation would begin.

    Either they are hiding them or they are not. Only a fan would pretend this isn't a problem. It's an obvious hole in the plot.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 30, 2013
  20. Iron_lord Force Ghost

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    Going by RoTJ- he didn't know that there were two children until he sensed Luke's thoughts about Leia

    "Especially for ... sister! So, you have a twin sister!"

    Even shortly after RoTJ, when he knew Luke's name, and background, he wasn't sure Luke was his child- at least, in EU sources referencing that period.

    The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader
    Could there have been other Skywalkers from Tatooine? Vader allowed the possibility. After all, it wasn't an entirely uncommon name in the galaxy.
    But Anakin and Padme Amidala had been expecting a baby nineteen years ago.
    Nineteen standard years.
    It's not possible, Vader thought. I killed Padme. The baby died with her.
    Not for the first time, he wondered if the Emperor had told him the whole truth about Padme's death. But I remember choking her ... seeing her collapse on Mustafar. I was so angry with her. And yet ...
    Luke Skywalker exists.
    Vader refused to believe the notorious Rebel's surname was merely a bizarre coincidence. If he had possessed any other name, Vader would not have hesitated to report what he had learned to the Emperor. But for purely selfish reasons, Vader kept the young Rebel's name to himself. To him, Luke Skywalker was more than a mystery to be solved.
    He is ... an opportunity. As strong with the Force as he may be, he is an opportunity ... an opportunity for even greater power.
    But who is he? Who were his parents? Could he have been Obi-Wan's son? But then why was he named Skywalker and raised by the Lars family? Or was he merely trained by Obi-Wan?
    Because Obi-Wan Kenobi, Shmi Skywalker, Owen and Beru Lars, and Padme Amidala were dead, there was only one way Vader could discover the truth. He would have to ask Luke Skywalker himself. All he had to do was find him.

    Splinter of the Mind's Eye
    His voice held an unaccustomed hint of conviction. "I'm going to kill you, Darth Vader."
    That humorless laugh again. "What a high opinion you hold of yourself, Skywalker."
    "I'm ... I'm Ben Kenobi," Luke whispered in an odd way.
    For just a moment Vader seemed shaken. "Ben Kenobi's dead. I killed him myself. You are simple Luke Skywalker, an ex-farmboy from Tatooine. You are no master of the Force and the equal of Ben Kenobi you will never be."
    "Ben Kenobi is with me, Vader," Luke snarled, gaining confidence every second, "and the Force is with me too."
    "You do have something of the Force about you, boy," Vader admitted. "A master of it you are not, however. That dooms you. Only a master could do ... this."
    The Dark Lord lunged and Luke spun well clear. At the same time, Vader was staring not at Luke, but at the ground. A small fragment of the fallen ceiling rose, shot straight for Luke's head. Seeing it coming, he reacted as Kenobi had taught him ... without thinking.
    A much smaller stone lifted and intersected the path of the charging rock. The two met. Though Vader's missile was by far the larger, it was deflected by Luke's rock to send it shooting past his shoulder.
    Panting, he stared challengingly back at Vader. "Good, boy," the Dark Lord confessed, "very good. But my stone was the heavier. My powers are the stronger."

    The Rise & Fall of Darth Vader again:
    "What is thy bidding, my Master?"
    From light years away, on Coruscant, the Emperor replied, "There is a great disturbance in the Force."
    "I have felt it," Vader said.
    "We have a new enemy. The young Rebel who destroyed the Death Star. I have no doubt that this boy is the offspring of Anakin Skywalker."
    Offspring?! The surviving tissue in Vader's throat suddenly went dry. Through his shock, he managed to say, "How is that possible?"
    Without offering any explanation to support his stated conviction, the Emperor answered, "Search your feelings, Lord Vader. You will know it to be true. He could destroy us."
    Having fought Luke Skywalker on Mimban, Vader was even more aware of the young man's powers than was the Emperor. But he also knew something else; Luke was as ignorant of their familial connection as Vader had been. If he had known the truth on Mimban, Vader thought, I would have sensed it. Still grappling with the Emperor's declaration, he struggled to find words that might discourage his Master's interest in Skywalker. "He is just a boy," Vader said. "Obi-Wan can no longer help him."
    The Emperor believed otherwise. "The Force is strong with him," he said. "The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."
    The Emperor had not said in so many words that he wanted Luke Skywalker dead, so Vader — needing Skywalker alive to accomplish his goals — took a different tack. "If he could be turned," Vader suggested, "he would become a powerful ally."
    "Yes," the Emperor mused, as if he had not thought of that possibility. Vader could only imagine what the Emperor was thinking. The Sith had long maintained their rule of two: one Master, one apprentice. Even Vader knew that there wasn't room enough in the galaxy for three Sith Lords, and yet the Emperor's hooded eyes seemed to sparkle as he said more emphatically, "Yes. He would be a great asset. Can it be done?"
    "He will join us or die, Master," Vader said. He bowed, and the Emperor's hologram faded out.
    Now that the Emperor was interested in Luke Skywalker's fate, Vader knew he had to do everything in his power to find Luke before the Emperor found him.
  21. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    The simple fact of the matter is, fan explanations tend to involve ideas like "there was no need to hide them from Vader or the Emperor". The problem is, that isn't the plot of the films. It's the plot fans are substituting to address the inconsistency. We know the character's goal was to hide them in the actual plot, it isn't debatable. It's a stated goal of the characters in the films. We can't then pretend that it isn't.
  22. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

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    The movies do have this minor plot hole, yes. These EU explanations serve to bridge that gap. There's nothing wrong with that.
  23. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    There is nothing wrong with people enjoying those explanations. I agree. If there is a way of looking at the problem that works for an individual, great, more power to them. We all do it. It's just that people should not expect universal acceptance of those explanations as a "solution" to the plot hole.

    And in many conversations here, that is exactly what people do.
    Last edited by Captain Tom Coughlin, Oct 30, 2013
  24. timmoishere Jedi Grand Master

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    So you'd rather have a plot hole stay unsolved than accept an official explanation? You seem to forget that Star Wars is all one giant piece of continuity. Every story flows into the next. So if you only look at one tiny piece of the story, you're not getting the big picture, and plot holes seem more apparent to you. If you'd expand your focus you'll see that these plot holes really don't exist after all.
  25. Placeholder Jedi Knight

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    I have read much of the same EU as you have. I see it as separate. Some of it good, some of it bad. I don't care about it in relation to the films. And to be blunt, I find most of the attempts to deal plot holes in the films to be as hamfisted as fan theories tend to be.

    I'm not impressed with words like "official".
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