PT Why didn't Obi Wan re-fight Vader after hiding Luke and Leia

Because Leia has vague memories of her and Bail has to concoct a lie to cover the truth. He cannot get around that once she starts to ask where her real mother is and wonders aloud why she can remember her. As to the others, they would be told to tell only the basics of who Padme was to her, if she asks about them.

 

Why would Bail care that Leia thinks she has some vague memories, just images & feelings? Why the necessity to concoct a bunch of lies that he has to involve others to back up? Far easier to simply tell Leia that it must've been a dream, which as far as Bail knew it could well be. Tell Leia that her mother died during childbirth so they can't be actual memories. That's completely plausible, kids dream about all sorts of things & it's probably what Bail (a non-Force user) would think anyway. The alternative is to lie for some unknown reason & say Padme lived with them for years on Alderaan. Since this would've been only a few years earlier he'd have to call all staff & close family & friends together for a meeting. On a whiteboard go through the lies of what Padme was like & come up with a few believable anecdotes. According to your version poor Breha would have to have ready an extensive load of BS if Padme was her aide for years. This is all completely unnecessary, potentially problematic, & only adds to the lies Bail would have to feed his daughter, which he'd find objectionable when they're so unnecessary.

 

Not all of it is lies. Padme was friends with Bail and had been to Alderaan a few times. Easy enough to just say things like, "She was a kind woman who did her job well and had loved her daughter very much." Just use actual stories, but omit things like she was a senator.

 

You're dodging the point. It's not just about coming up with a scenario that neatly ties in with RotJ. It has to make sense back at the time Bail told her this lie you're proposing. Bail has to have a clear reason & motive to do so. When Leia as a young girl first mentions she has some kind of images & feelings of a beautiful but sad young lady, it's far-fetched in the extreme for Bail in that moment to come up with a bunch of lies saying that Padme didn't die in childbirth but lived with them for years on Alderaan. It's a ridiculous & unnecessary deception. He has no motive to do that. That's what you still haven't explained: why he'd go to those lengths & not tell her the truth of when Padme died. He'd simply tell Leia the truth that her mother died during childbirth - bcs she did. This woman Leia has images of could be from a dream, or who knows where. Based on the vague description from Leia, Bail surely wouldn't even know who she's talking about. For all he knows it is from a dream. Even if he does suspect she's having dreams of her mother somehow, so what? How is that a problem? Completely bonkers for Bail to say in that moment "er Leia that lady is actually your real mother Padme. You & her lived here on Alderaan until you were two years old".

 

Or Bail realizes that he's referring to Padme and starts asking questions, thus prompting the lies to protect her from finding out the truth. That is his only motive to keep her from digging up the truth and having the Empire find out. Something I did tell you, but you ignored.

 

Silly. Inventing lies that she could easily uncover is what's more likely to lead her to investigate & dig further. As I mentioned, alot of people including Breha would be expected by Leia to have known Padme & be able to relate stories about her. Also what truth are you referring to? Bail simply telling Leia the images & feelings are part of a dream seems like the best way to put a stop to Leia's curiosity & avoid any truth coming out. Telling her it's her mother would lead to Leia wanting to know why she was so sad. What Bail doesn't want is Leia finding out her mother was Padme & her father was Anakin. The story that Padme was an injured young pregnant woman at an outpost & she died during childbirth puts an end to further questions. Saying they knew her for years on Alderaan is what will prompt a barrage of questions towards several people.

 

Wouldn't it have been much easier for him to simply say, "Your mother died when you were born, and my wife and I took it upon ourselves to raise you." No need to fabricate a huge storyline that Leia would no doubt want to explore when she's old enough.

 

This presumes that Leia doesn't stop being curious and keeps asking about it.

 

by that time, it was best just to lay low and plan. you can't be on the offensive all the time. plus, they were at a severe disadvantage at that point given they'd been fighting wars for a while. regrouping was the best

 

What matters is what Bail would say first. It's absurd to think he'd immediately concoct a lie the first time young Leia mentions this, telling her the dream/images were due to her mother living with them for years before she died. Bail must have the Force himself to have that lie prepared & ready to go. No, he'd tell the truth but leave out who Padme really was. Therefore he'd surely stick to that with Leia, not change his story later exposing himself as a liar. Just far too many holes in this scenario. The scene in RotJ was designed where Leia literally remembers her mother from when she was around 2 years old. That's the only explanation that works perfectly & it also explains why Luke doesn't have any memory of her. This "Force sense" silliness with Leia somehow thinking Padme lived an extra 2 years just doesn't add up when you think about how Bail would've explained things to her.

 

Yeah I feel as though Obi-Wan and Yoda were cowards at the end of ROTS. No way they should have gone into hiding for almost 20 years.

Obi-wan already proved to himself that he can stand toe to toe with Vader and Yoda more than held his own versus Palpatine. The only reason he "lost" was because of where the fight took place (on an 8x10-foot wide senate platform).

Those two should have been together, game-planning for their re-matches right away. Their exiles and the need for it just felt too "rushed."

 

Or he would prepare the lie in advance of Leia ever asking questions. Anticipation doesn't require the Force. He would prepare the lies on the chance that when she was old enough would want to know about her mother. And it isn't Force sense. It is a vision of the past. Jedi have visions of the past and future while sleeping. Clearly established in TESB and the PT.

 

This theory is getting worse. Putting ourselves in Bail's shoes before Leia had even mentioned anything about her real mother, why would he lie & say she lived with them for years rather than the truth that she died during childbirth? The only truth he needs to leave out is who Padme was & who Leia's father was. That's it. Why would he have a pre-prepared lie about Padme dying years later? Makes no sense for him to even think of that & in fact it's very risky to lie about that & risk Leia finding out, which could then cause a domino effect of the more important info being uncovered. Bail, unless he has the Force himself, couldn't possibly foresee Leia having a vision & seeing her real mother in the past (even Luke didn't have that). Yet out of some uncanny bit of anticipation he's going to be ready to go with this BS? & for what reason would he do that anyway? Imagine the conversation between Bail & Breha when Leia was a baby: Bail: "When Leia asks about her real mother I'm going to lie & tell her she lived an extra 2 years. You're going to have to lie too & pretend this happened". Breha: "Why would we do that?" Bail: "I have no idea. Just because".

I know we're going around in circles but Bail's reasoning & preference for this specific lie compared to the truth is what you haven't come close to explaining. It's simply no big deal to Bail that Leia knows her mother died during childbirth. Why would it be? It's not even a big deal that Leia has some vision of a sad beautiful lady. He doesn't need to launch into liar mode regarding this, let alone think of creating this lie before she's told him about the vision. Only Padme & Anakin's identity are what needs to be kept secret. That her mother died during childbirth is perfectly fine for Leia to know. You don't concoct a lie in the first place unless there's a very good reason.

 

Buddy...

Why. Would Bail Organa. Have Any Reason. To Lie. To Her. What, exactly, would make it so difficult for him to say, "Your mother was a kind person. A beautiful woman and well-loved. She died giving birth to you; here are holographic images of her." And where is this 'extra two years' thing coming from? Even assuming Leia had these visions when she was little and told him about it, he would still tell her the truth. Maybe he didn't know she was Force-Sensitive, but if she talked on and on about a sad, kind woman who she thought was supposed to be her mother, Bail could still just give her the holographic images of Padme and simply tell her the necessary details. Just, y'know, leaving out the bit about her dad being a Jedi/Sith Lord.

Plus, Leia would be, like, a little kid here! You're expecting her to pull out a 1950s cigar pipe and Sherlock Holmes this mystery out. She would most likely be sad for a bit, but would eventually accept Organa's explanation. And all without him putting her trust in him at risk by lying to her.

 

The two years bit is because Darth Downunder is going on about it, so I said that he could tell Leia that she died when Leia was two. Besides, if Owen Lars can lie to Luke, Bail Organa can do the same.

 

Because Luke is living on a moisture farm in the center of a desert planet in the backward end of Nowhere, Galaxy. Leia, on the other hand, lives in one of the biggest core worlds in the galaxy, the daughter of royalty and access to more information. Bail would have a lot more to risk lying to her than Owen would to Luke.

 

Of course Owen had to lie about Anakin, as no doubt Bail did too. We don't know what Owen told Luke about Padme. The only thing both of them had to keep from the twins was exactly who their parents were.

The reason we're going on about it is bcs it doesn't add up for Leia to literally think she can remember her mother given she died during childbirth. It's also absurd for Bail to have any reason or motivation to pretend that Padme died at some later point. It's another example of GL not thinking through (or not caring about) his changes to the story in the PT or SE's.

 

I would have to side with Darth Downunder here.

Sure Bail would have to make up some sort of lie to explain who Leia was without telling the world who she was.
He was a quite public figure so it is doubtful he could pretend that Leia was his real daughter.
So he would quite quickly need to spinn some moonbeams to explain Leia.
The simplest way is "Her mother died in child birth." and then make up some story about her.
Having some story that Leia's mother lived in the palace for two years make no sense. Why make up something this specific for no reason? Bail would have to have this lie in place quickly, long before he knew that Leia had any memories of her real mother.

Another oddity is this, Leia knows what her mother looks like. And she works in the senate, where her mother also worked.
Isn't it possible and even likely that she would come across some picture of Padme. If she did, she would know her mothers real name. And then she could find out more about her. Like when she died.
This would have royally confused her, she would know that her mother died right after her birth and yet she can remember her mothers face, that she was sad about something and HOW she was like to Leia.

Given what she says in RotJ, she clearly doesn't think her mother died in childbirth. She has memories of her, her face, her emotional state and how her mother was like to her. If she knew that she died in child birth, her dialogue makes no sense.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Lord Vader probably had them removed so as not to be reminded of the past.

 

This version of the backstory was still better because Anakin only becomes to murderous and vengeful after falling into the molten pit and becoming a cyborg. This is great motivation for him wanting to kill Obi-Wan or the other Jedi.

 

Agreed, & the other point that you make reference to, & one I'm not sure darth-sinister has considered, is that whatever Bail tells Leia about this he also must tell his family, friends, community & the whole planet. We're talking about the Royal Family of Alderaan here. From everyone's point of view suddenly out nowhere Bail has a daughter & the planet has a new Princess. So how could Bail possibly maintain the lie that Leia's real mother lived with him for 2 years? She would be well known by alot of people if that had been the case. Far simpler to tell the truth (from a certain point of view) - that Leia was a war orphan as a result of the final stages of TCW. There were probably thousands of war orphans that kind & wealthy people took in. What seems impossible to me is that Bail could either (a) pretend that Leia was his natural child. That's bcs as the Royal Family they'd surely live under the public spotlight so how can he pretend Breha had been pregnant all that time, or (b) some mystery woman was still alive for 2 years after Leia's birth & then she died. Crazy for Bail to tell Leia that bcs no one would back it up. It would need to be a lie that the whole planet was in on!

So again, all of this points to Leia's thoughts & memories of her mother in RotJ being undermined by the events of RotS. I get why Lucas did it though, to have a more dramatic ending in the movie. Padme taking Leia to Alderaan to live for a couple of years before she died would match up with RotJ, but wouldn't be as compelling as an ending to RotS. Lucas has an established habit of not caring about, or not thinking through how changing events affects other parts of the story. Reminds me of the SE changes to Vader's dialogue in ESB regarding the search for Luke. Seemingly minor dialogue changes resulted in a plot-hole of sorts, as explained here.

 

Except according to Lucas at the time, Vader was already killing Jedi and not out of revenge. His only form of revenge was against Obi-wan and that was covered in ANH.