CT Why didn't Palpatine just clone Vader?

If he were so frustrated with having a half-cyborg apprentice, why didn't he just clone Vader? That way, he'd have his healthy, pre-Mustafar apprentince back again. As for old, cyborg Vader? Call him into a private sessions where it's just him and his elite guards, zap him to death and have his corpse disposed of.

Or, to be deliciously cruel: Have Cyborg Vader fight his pre-Mustafar self.

In any case, you'd think Palpatine would've just cloned Vader if he were tired of having a half-cyborg apprentice.

Just a thought that popped into my head after reading Palpatine's entry on Wookipedia.

 

If TFU 2 is any indication, it may not be so simple to create a stable clone of a powerful Force-sensitive.
( Also, there is a hint in one of the Traviss short stories that cloning might not preserve 100% of the template's Force potential. )

 

I didn't think of that. Maybe Palpatine feared that if he did it, Cloned Pre-Mustafar Vader would remember he had been duped, he's now strong enough to annihilate Palpatine; so out comes his lightsaber...

So Palpatine, as frustrated as he was with his cyborg apprentice, knew that trying to clone him would be a death sentence, pratically.

 

But a clone would not have all the memories of their template. The clone troopers didn't think back to their childhood growing up as Jango Fett, because... they didn't.

So if the clone Vader was kept away from the template Vader, it would not know (or possibly care) that he had been duped. But as stated, the Force sensitivity may not be clone-able anyway.

 

Actually, I wasn't thinking about the memories, but that's a fair point if applicable ( and it is indeed strange that a clone Starkiller can apparently retain the memories of the original while the same thing does not happen with Jango clones ). I was referring to the difficult process of experimentation which eventually led to the creation of a stable clone, a trial-and-error process which resulted in many misfires like the "aberrant clones" that the player had to fight during the final Kamino stage.

 

I think of the cloning of midiclorians as a task too complex for that technology. In The Fifth Element they cloned a full grow super being from a mega-complex DNA. I think of Midis like that but they are far to complex to make anythging out of. Itd be like a caveman trying to reverse engineer a 2011 Ford Mustang.

 

[image=http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/geico-caveman-lg.jpg]

"Hey... Who do you think designed the 2011 Ford Mustang?"


Anyone capable of mass-replicating millions of clones without degeneration should not only be able to reproduce
midichlorians, but alter the genetic structure to enhance and increase them.

But then, of course, no self-respecting Sith lord in his right mind would put himself out of business by doing that.

 

Anyone capable of mass-replicating millions of clones without degeneration should not only be able to reproduce
midichlorians, but alter the genetic structure to enhance and increase them.



Really? When and how did cloning one to millions qualify anyone to be able to clone everything? We have cars not flying cars, we have no FTL travel, we do not have immortality(even though there is an immortal creature in our oceans). You can clone a humanoid in SW but that does not mean they have the ability to clone a far more complex organism.

 

There is?

 

Cloning regular beings is one thing; trying to do the same with such a powerful Force-sensitive would require much more technology and know-how.

 

[image=http://www.swesleysteam.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Cthulhu-Poster.jpg]

 

Kaminoan-style cloning is like what you described; Jango's clones were basically grown from scratch.

Spaarti-style cloning, however, creates more or less a complete duplicate of the individual, including memories from earlier in life. But this method has the disadvantage of warping the mind of the clone, turning it insane after a short time.

 

Yes! It is a jellyfish which is born, grows old, then goes into a regenerative state and transforms back to its youth. Obviously you can kill it, eat it, starve it to death and so on, but it will not die from old age.

Turritopsis nutricula

Most jellyfish species have a relatively fixed life span, which varies by species from hours to many months (long-lived mature jellyfish spawn every day or night; the time is also fairly fixed and species-specific).

The medusa of Turritopsis nutricula is the only form known to have developed the ability to return to a polyp state, by a specific transformation process that requires the presence of certain cell types (tissue from both the jellyfish bell surface and the circulatory canal system). Careful laboratory experiments have revealed that all stages of the medusae, from newly released to fully mature individuals, can transform back into polyps.

The transforming medusa is characterized first by deterioration of the bell and tentacles, with subsequent growth of a perisarc sheet and stolons, and finally feeding polyps. Polyps further multiply by growing additional stolons, branches and then polyps, to form colonial hydroids. This ability to reverse the life cycle (in response to adverse conditions) is probably unique in the animal kingdom, and allows the jellyfish to bypass death, rendering Turritopsis nutricula potentially biologically immortal.

Studies in the laboratory showed that 100% of specimens could revert to the polyp stage, but so far the process has not been observed in nature, in part because the process is quite rapid and field observations at the right moment in time are unlikely.[3] In spite of this remarkable ability, most Turritopsis medusae are likely to fall victim to the general hazards of life as plankton, including being eaten by other animals, or succumbing to disease.

 

Here's another thought:

Clone Vader, unless trained, would not be as powerful as Template Vader, Force powers or no.

Palpatine would have to closely moniter the boy's upbringing, teach him the powers of the Dark Side through not so pleasant means. Here's the thing: Would he WANT to spend time raising his cloned apprentice from childhood? It's not like he hadn't done it before with Darth Maul, so he could do it again with Child Clone Vader.

But, the only reason he took an interest in Template Vader in the first place was because of his potential Force abilities. If Clone Vader has no such ability, he'd be useless as an apprentice. The best Cloned Vader would hope for was to become another Stormtrooper.

TL;DR:

Cloned Vader
If he possesses Force abilities, Palpatine would have to closely moniter him so he can grow strong in the Dark Side. This is IF the abilities doesn't somehow screw him up through the cloning process.

If he doesn't, he doesn't get to be Palpatine's apprentice. Therefore, he likely is trained to be a stormtrooper.

All this is, of course, assuming that Palpatine doesn't mind that his cloned apprentice could follow the Rule of Two and off him.

 

Midichlorians are in 'all living things' per TPM, so there's no debate as to whether or not they're cloneable; it's just the numbers per living thing vary.

Anyway. Palpatine didn't really have the time to train another Apprentice from birth once he'd become Emperor; the only one he did so was with Maul, who was trained from a very early age if not birth. Dooku he basically gave a crash course in touching the power of the Dark Side, and Anakin he spent thirteen years inculcating with a mindset suited to conversion; neither is full-on training. Plus according to the EU Palpatine didn't believe that Vader' potential was limited by the suit; only his despair limited what he could do, and there's plenty of EU evidence that Palpatine was completely correct there; there's been at least a few very powerful EU Sith who didn't sport bodies at all.

So basically, Palpatine didn't clone Vader because 1) no time to train a new Apprentice and 2) Palpatine didn't believe it necessary.

As a quick aside, Palpatine forcing Vader and Luke to duel could have one of two routes: Either Luke triumphs and murders Vader through the power of the Dark Side (probably cementing Luke as Palpatine's new Apprentice) or Vader winds up killing his own son out of Palpatine's machinations, which gives Vader such a blinding hatred of Palpatine that it brings his former potential fully to the fore. Either way Palpatine gets his super-Apprentice.

 

*sigh* This whole plot-mess wouldn't exist without the invention of mitochondrians - wait, I mean midichlorians. It's one of these questions that is best ignored, because all possible in universe explanations will seem contrived at best and like a pile of poodoo at worst.

Anyway, if you go with "lumious beings are we, not this crude matter", than it makes perfect sense. A clone wouldn't have Vaders spirit, his soul. Maybe Palpatine needed specifically someone like Vader.

 

IMO the question would still be legitimate going by the OT alone.

 

I agree. I was against the idea of transforming a transcendental phenomenon into a quirk of biology, which even by
today's rudimentary knowledge of genetics could be manipulated, but I underestimated the power of the midichlorian.

Sad.

 

I know you like to reduce the OT to "the force", but for some people (me) it was about much more than the force alone. Without all the non-force users, like Han, Leia, and the rest of the rebellion, the war against the empire would never have been won. In the past, Star Wars was about more than flashy saber techniques or midichlorian comparisons (one of my friends used the analogy of comparing stats on Yu-gi-oh cards).

 

*Cough Leia WAS Force Sensitive...

There was no real need to Clone Vader though, he was still a very strong Sith Lord, and if a stronger Force user came about, ie Luke, then Palps would have the two face off...

Win-Win for Palpatine

 

I said non-force user.

 

Fair enough

 

That may be the basher party line, but it's irrelevant to the fact that without Vader's action the Emperor would not have been killed. But that's a different topic. You claim that the question of cloning Vader wouldn't exist without midichlorians. That is inaccurate. The question of cloning Vader would be relevant to the OT even if the PT did not exist. Biologically/genetically determined Force sensitivity is not a PT invention.

 

In the OT it is not proven that force sensitivity is a trait encoded in the DNA. We know that it can be passed down in families, but in a magical world like Star Wars other means of passing down are quite possible. Maybe the closeness with your force sensitive parent imbues you with his power, or maybe there is another mysterious mechanism at work. It might be fate for all we know.